Sahaja

Yes, my understanding is that all our mind body layers are interconnected and influence each other in everything we do. The spiritual paths of addition take you through the various layers with lots of practices, physical, behavioral, energetic, mental, etc. along the way all the mind body’s layers change in a systematic interconnected fashion, including the physical body. The spiritual paths of subtraction approach it from the other end, removing/simplifying things often focusing on consciousness and mental processes. However, at some point all the layers change in the paths of subtraction as well. This is because we are whole beings with mind and body connected as a single unit. you are in all your mind body layers and are affected by them all ( until you are not). Without the mind body layers being transformed to be able to anchor the changes from the learnings on the path into it (whether on the path of addition or on the path of subtraction or some combination of the two ) , all one has are ephemeral experiences whose effects will fade. The human mind body complex design provides each of us the opportunity for spiritual growth but for most this requires change at many levels.

I think it is an excellent discipline to examine one’s practice to see if one can articulate what the cause is that they are practicing is and what the outcome is from the practice and what conditions need to be in place for the outcome to arise from the practice (the cause). I find that this brings insight & clarity to the practice that helps one focus their efforts on the cause and to let the effect naturally arise (or letting it naturally not arise).

My experience with the breath is a little different than the AI explanation. My understanding/experience is that once one is working with the subtle body (e.g. directly with qi), the breath disappears (you don’t perceive it). The breath is just worked with until the qi is there and then you let it go. Then you work with the qi. one eventually gets to a point where they don’t need to use the breath to get to the qi, they can just start with qi. I understand there is a similar step of going beyond qi in the practice.. as far as the one soul vs individual soul. My understanding is that in each of us there is something that contains the knowledge of everything. conflating outcomes with practices and trying to practice outcomes is a very common error. Practicing outcomes (either because of desire to take a shortcut or through misunderstanding) will rarely produce anything that’s helpful. Having a vision arise on its own of something during practice (outcome) is very different than consciously creating a vision of that something with your mind during practice (practicing an outcome).

Yellow court is utilized as the command center for expression of internal energy in Baguazhang. It sort of behaves like the lower Dan tian in its movements during bagua circle walking practice when you have enough qi. Certain mudras and hand positions stimulate it directly. Once activated it will open and close on its own energetically similar to what the lower Dan tian does in Dan tian breathing such that there is visible movement of the body associated with it. It’s feels a bit more fragile than the lower Dan tian and can cause some mild stomach distress if overworked. Lower Dan tian can too but it can absorb a lot more “attention” before it reaches this state. there is an interesting reference (reference to the court and the throne) to it in the oldest text I have found that talks about the lower Dan tian. It’s from the 2nd or 3rd century and it’s associated with meditations on the red child and body gods. Pretty clear precursor to alchemy.

I agree with both responses . Adding my two cents on the process of perceiving it. My understanding is that its nature is ziran. Attempts by the acquired mind to specifically make it arise likely work to negate it. What one can do (actually a form of not doing) is to release logical discursive thoughts so that they do not exclude it from our conscious perception. Going inside with bare attention (without the tension caused by goals, desires, agendas or logical expectations) provides an opportunity for one to perceive it as it naturally arises. I actually had a direct experience of this during a psychology class experiment at the university. It was a test of remote viewing - the class was put into a relaxed state through a guided meditation exercise and the viewer went out onto campus to “transmit” to the class. I remember having an image arise during the relaxed state but I quickly excluded it with the logical thought “I know this campus very well and there is nothing nearby like that”. The image was a spiral staircase which was what the remote viewer was looking at. My take away wasn’t a belief in remote viewing abilities (as who really knows what the causation chain was) but rather to be attentive/open to my perceptions and be careful about automatically heeding my logical discursive thoughts as they may be influenced by the interests of the ego/acquired mind.

Yes I think there are likely spiritual needles in the haystack of dreams (same in our waking world discursive thought) but it’s a tricky and painful process to sort through the hay when relying on someone/something that feels threatened by the needles (the acquired mind) to see them. there are perhaps other ways to differentiate the various spiritual paths that are useful such as the process of addition/process of subtraction or Ming/Xing. I prefer continuums to binary systems as they are more flexible and seem to be better at accommodating all the nuances that exist (or that people believe exist.) like anything continuums have their problems too as it’s difficult to find pure anchor points at the far edges.

My understanding is that dreams are similar to discursive thought related to the acquired mind. Focusing on them one runs the risk of getting stuck at that level. My understanding is that dreams end at some point on the spiritual path. i think methods that pursue and promote mental health are just that. Spiritual paths in my understanding are quite different. Improved mental health may be a byproduct but is not the goal of the spiritual path. However, the spiritual path may also (will likely) stress your mental health at some point, so it’s best to address health vulnerabilities prior to commencing your journey.

Seems like both have the potential for problems. Integration model risks focusing one on the acquired mind with an endless stream of rumination all reinforcing itself that doesn’t go anywhere because it continues to be from that perspective . The transcendent may bypass the vehicle we are in (the body) which has many interconnected layers influencing each other (physical, mental, emotional, energetic, causal etc ) that all participate in each activity you undertake. Bypassing these may take you somewhere that is irrelevant that you don’t want to be. I would describe both risks as taking/keeping you outside - either at the level of the acquired mind or at a void level (truly empty, nihilistic,negative). This void is different than “emptiness”. whichever route one takes it’s important to factor in these risks to your approach. I think the paths that take you inside approaching things with just attention can help with both risks. I think viewing it as an either/or choice of paths is likely a false choice.i think a better choice is acknowledging the risks of each and making adjustments as needed to your path.

Thanks. Gives me something to think about. the ding shi is the focus for me now as it seems quite strong. Direction seems relative to me, perhaps because I am not fixed. Though where I live is notorious for change. Earth and wood seem to be the strongest influences in me. From your comments I detect a bit of wood in you too…haha.

Sifu Laoxi (Christopher Matsuo) in addition to teaching the Kwan Yin Magnetic qi gong he teaches a Kwan Yin form. He also teaches stuff related to the forms discussed on the Flying Phoenix thread here on the forum including some different forms relying on breath percentages like flying Phoenix.

Was first exposed to Baguazhang and neigong about 47 years ago in the context of a broader martial arts training including the 18 weapons. . Left town for a job transferring around to a number of countries and did training on an on again off again basis over many years trying a number of teachers and bagua systems. what I found was almost exclusively focused on the external features of bagua. Given that it’s called an internal art I have always been curious about what makes it internal as I don’t think the just body shapes do, it’s something else. I am pretty sure one could practice the external shapes for many, many years and never practice it as an internal art. for past few years since I retired I have been practicing bagua in a more focused way along side tai chi and Xing yi and after so many years am starting to touch on what I would call the internal, primarily how Jin and qi works in these arts. Seems like tai chi is more open in what this means and how to approach it than what I can see of bagua practices. I have never heard or seen anyone really even refer to internal energetics of bagua in any meaningful way though when I look back at what my original teacher taught me I think he was on the track to get me there. i am not looking for secrets but just a framework (sort of like I wrote using qi and Jin to do the movements through release) about what makes it internal in your practice. I recall you mentioning the organ systems and I am familiar with how this model is used in the internal mechanic framework (elements/organs - wuxing) of Xing Yi and Tai chi (and Neidan) , but not bagua Zhang. Seems like there is more of a connection to Yi Jing in the bagua I have seen. I realize bagua may go very deep, as deep or deeper than tai chi well beyond my ability to comprehend but I don’t think this is solely based on which step you use or how to use the kua or the dang.

There is a term called mitahara in yoga that I think is applicable. It’s usually translated as the “controlled intake of healthy food”. The idea here is selectively eating both in amount, type and time. Generally amount is less than what fully fills you, the type is largely based on listening to your body but is assumed to be limiting certain types like sugars and meats, and time could be time of day or in relation to your practice. Now one could write books on the meaning of each of these and it’s not intended as a singular solution but as a guideline that is organic that to some degree you have to find on your own. Those involved with self cultivation often find that their ability to discern what is healthy for them increases with practice as they become more aware and sensitive. the way mitahara was taught to me it didn’t just include foods but rather applied to all the things consumed by your senses (watching tv, use of computers, attending events, really anything that stimulates the senses which includes sex). . The idea was to manage the intake to all of your senses in terms of quantity, type, and time. It meant being aware that all these activities carried consequences that you need to manage as an adult in terms of costs and benefits Controlled intake means conscious choice based on what is healthy for you as best as you can determine. It’s not repression but sometimes it might mean using your will to control your behavior. Using your will in moderate doses is healthy for you. The Daoists would say it’s good for your Jing to exercise this. It’s called discipline. Repression is moving the desires to the unconscious level and this can create serious psychological problems. Suppression means you are conscious of your desires but you are deciding that their cost to you exceeds their benefit. From both a yogic and Daoist perspective sex uses energy that might otherwise be used for other purposes, such as self cultivation. Sex also exposes one to others energy (at the physical, emotional and energetic levels) , which can be healthy or not depending on the relationship to your partner and your partner’s hygiene (at all levels). Even a computer screen carries some type of energy you are opening yourself energetically to with porn. So it’s important to make good decisions on it. the Daoists actually have guides based on age for how much sex is healthy/unhealthy but I think it’s a little more complicated than that but perhaps it’s a start. Ultimately it’s up to each individual as an adult to find the balance that works for them In these traditions thinking is viewed as one of the senses. This means mitahara applies to discursive thinking as well and that it has cost and benefits and should be managed like the other senses.

What about internal energetics? Anything you can share on this? Baguazhang is usually designated as an internal martial art. In my understanding this means the art doesn’t rely on conventional external body mechanics but rather harnesses the energetic body to move the physical body by using soong (release of tension) to mobilize the qi through the body’s soft tissues. In other words yi then qi then upper body movement, not yi then muscle contraction to move. For example I am learning a version of Cheng (Liu Jinru’s). In it I am attempting to do each arm and torso movement in this fairly twisty form by using release to initiate upper body movement not by conventional muscle contraction. It’s not easy but it’s pretty interesting when it works…it’s like the body is moving on its own and your job is to direct it with the shape and to keep from letting the energy uproot or twist you as it can be quite fast and strong . The way I have learned relies on the yellow court/middle Dan tian as the central point/director of the process. The release creates a lot of internal movement and stretching of tissue deep inside which provides the connectivity/strength behind the movement. Using release also means you can use it in grappling to compromise the opponents ability to apply conventional force on you when bridging (touching) similarly to what happens in tai chi push hands/rubbing hands. The term I’ve heard used to describe the analogous activity in bagua is rou shou or soft hands. The internal energetic engine of bagua is different than tai chi as are the applications to use it in grappling but soong/release purportedly has a similar effect on the opponent’s body in bagua as in tai chi. As Cheng style Baguazhang was developed by a master with wrestling skills it likely came in quite handy. Release also can be used to quickly propel strikes like the piercing palm.

Habit forming aspect of it burns through Jing as it can be very addictive. Can think of it like anything that has a strong attraction that has the potential to compromises one’s will (alcohol, drugs, greed, power, obsessions, etc) It’s not just because of the sexual part. Soon as it hooks you to look your will has been affected and you’re burning Jing. Then soon as sexual desire is stimulated more Jing is burned. Most of the damage is actually already done before climax is reached. Also sort of connects you karmically to what is happening to the people on the screen in terms of their potential abuse by their handlers.

For me I seem need to apply willpower initially to escape the “gravity” ofThe attachment to break the pattern . Once the effects of this gravity are reduced acceptance/emptiness works fine. I think going directly to emptiness for some people might not be realistic and perhaps result in an intellectual delusion. also another interpretation of returning to original may have a second meaning related to the alchemical process - stilling the Jing process as prep for alchemy. It’s about removing the stresses/attachments of everyday life so that one can go beyond normal functioning through cultivation of original Jing/qi etc. it’s not just breaking habits it’s about not being distracted or affected by the stimulus associated with them. In some cases this might require being away from modern society.

for Yang Taichi nerds Did a little research on the style, form and approach reflected in this teacher in the video’s teaching. As the story goes Laoliulu (old six roads or old six routines Yang form) was transmitted from Yang Jianhou (son of the Yang founder Yang Luchan) to a steward of the emperor named Wong Lu and to his son Wang Yongquan under a secrecy oath (with serious consequences if broken). The son Wang, while assigned to Yang Cheng Fu officially in the Yang family hierarchy taught YCF’s large frame form, he continued to also practice this original Yang Jianhou form that was not part of YCF’s transmission. Wang in his old age decided to break his oath and taught the form and its associated Yang family Neigong . One of his students he taught this to was a middle aged Ch’en taichi master by the name of Wei Shuren who in turn adjusted the original long form to create two shorter forms, a 22 and a 37. Interestingly enough after this Wang ended up in wheelchair. There are some videos of Wei Shuren practicing these forms on YouTube and Wang doing fa Jin from a wheelchair when he was very aged.. this approach has its own neigong that seems quite interesting (use of 3 circles, use of external qi and yi) you don’t see everyday, certainly not on videos on the internet. These are presented as part of the original Yang legacy of Yang Jianhou not filtered through YCF. I am not sure what the relationship of this teacher in the video is to Wei Shuren but I read some translations of excerpts from Wei’s writings and they appear to reflect what this teacher is sharing. I also read some of Wang’s writings. I was particularly impressed with one quote from Wang. “ To mobilize Qi, you create an empty space, by Soong and a light Yi to empty the area. The differentiation of yin and yang is what makes Qi flow.“ People talk about Yi leading the qi but I think this is a much more correct and clear explanation of what really takes place. Not only in taichi but in bagua as well. Wei Shuren has some books on Yang family Nei gong in Chinese that I would probably read if I had that capability. Interesting story.

For me the Nei Yeh captures what is important in cultivation of Jing (essence) It’s probably one of it not the oldest Daoist texts but what it says seems pretty spot on regarding cultivation with respect to Jing (before things got sexualized by daoists catering to royalty with concubines - in modern terms before they became political consultants) in talking about the Essence (Jing). about qi and the De of having them it says “The reason you lose it Is certainly due to worries and happiness, love and anger, desire for profit If you can leave behind worries and happiness, love and anger, desire for profit your heart mind then returns to its original nature successfully” .my understanding is that succumbing to our urges/habits/addictions burns Jing, applying discipline/willpower (zhi - kidneys) to not succumb builds it. So I would say both sex and looking at our cell phones are a small part of the equation, but it’s a much broader issue and more fundamental than any one thing. If one could avoid or reduce the stress of attachments, either desires or aversion, that helps return the Jing towards its original state- stills the Jing.

You are right. It’s a lot easier to release tension that you feel than that you don’t feel. However, most people have tension they carry that is below their perceptual radar either at the subconscious or unconscious level. Been working to become aware of and release some of the subconscious holding patterns lately. Very interesting. almost knocked myself over when I turned some of it off and the qi moved. Made me laugh. I guess some level of tension has a purpose but likely the majority of it is unnecessary and needlessly uses up our energy. as far as mixing things, I would say almost all of my teachers (and many of the old masters you read about) had studied more than one approach.so when they are teaching you you are getting something that is already mixed (at least energetically) whether they intend to mix or not. I think there are even some traditions that encourage this at a point in someone’s training to give them perspective. From a practical matter it’s good to separate different practices with a break so that you don’t confuse your body. Also if your body tells you not to do a practice (happened to me once), you should listen as it is possible that certain things don’t mix well but I think this is more the exception rather than the rule. Having a strong energetic anchor in the lower Dan tian absolves many potential energy issues.

While I think the video is good, my understanding is that once we start dealing with them as exercises you start introducing muscles and muscular contraction and tension which negates or runs counter to Yi Jin Jing. Essentially the basic process is for the flesh to hang off the bone without any self imposed tension - with only gravity elongating and stressing the connective tissue. The process focuses on releasing any tension you are imposing, whether consciously or unconsciously. Gravity and release of tension in the body then stresses the connective tissue. This starts the change process. The release also frees up qi you are using to hold the tension which can make things a little interesting, hehe. While there is nothing wrong with strengthening the body with conventional exercise that uses muscular contraction, it’s a different practice and it doesn’t do the same thing.

Video Reminds me of training I had back in the late 70s and early 80s. Palm strikes(palm and back of hand/fingertips) into bean bags/newspaper bundles and harder stuff, metal rings on the arms during circle walking, , doing low horse stance moving forms wearing 40 lbs of weight in a backpack while swinging a 20lb long metal staff, hitting the body to condition it (mostly with our own or another’s body), use of herbs and certain forms to deal with the bruising, jumping over obstacles head first onto a hard floor and rolling into a fighting stance, tons of very low stances (mole form or leg sweeps-moving very low to the floor underneath staffs held by the teacher ), lots of long static stances in twisty positions, work with swords, staffs, spears, halberds. Used to give demonstrations of one inch palm strikes to people visiting practice area. This was mostly waigong, external skill - using conventional body mechanics based on muscular contraction, though there were some links to neigong(internal skill). There can be a lot of power in waigong when you learn to use your whole body at the same time (e.g. waizhang or pozhang form). Good stuff to practice when you are young. For me now more interested in learning movement through (song) release which is associated with neigong. Interesting sound similarity wei and wai - governance/interference/action and external. Seems like a conceptual link as well - release of tension and listening (used in neigong) are both wu Wei and wu wai.

My interpretation of this is that what we have is what you say (forgery from 1600) but there is something more behind this reflected commonly across the internal arts.

The origin of Chan Buddhism has also been attributed to Bodhidharma (though there is a competing legend to this that his teacher originated it). He supposedly lived to be 150 years old.

The story goes that the monks had gotten ill from just sitting and not taking care of their bodies and this was impeding their cultivation. so Bodhidharma, a Buddhist monk that wasn’t from China -probably India, first (YJJ) dealt with their health then went beyond this into the marrow (which is developing the brain/heart - which means both the physical and the part beyond the physical) and then beyond this. all these stories we have are just legends but so are all the stories about the exercise sets. Legends built on legends. There is also a legend there is still one copy of the original somewhere being held in secret - legend- truth - who knows. however, bones up/releasing flesh down is so ubiquitous in the internal arts I think this has truth irrespective of the source and it works.

My point was that many schools used the principles in their training regime exercises but they aren’t the originals. The original was essentially how to use energy to support the full Buddhist path -particularly the second and third treatises (YJJ was the first treatise that took the individual from skin level depth to marrow depth - the others went far beyond this). Original was not about martial arts it was about using energy to support self cultivation to achieve enlightenment . All the sets today are derivative from this reflecting what those practitioners were able to glean as outsiders and what they were focused on because they were attracted to the power associated with it.. Generally they wanted to use this to support another purpose besides spiritual cultivation - like martially focused ones. Some of these applications are so old people think they reflect the original as evidenced by the comments here. Unfortunately many things get handed down that while having a grain of truth have many other grains as well for a variety of reasons, some intended some because they didn’t know better and just got passed them on without challenge.

If you’ll indulge me I’d like to make one more point that occurred to me when writing on this subject. when talking about sets of exercises in qi gong, we (myself included) often think the specific exercises are the key to the effects/benefits. It seems like a logical approach meaning that if we find the original or correct set of exercises it is just a matter of practice and time (with some cues or feedback). what I have found is more like the opposite - it’s the principles (how we do it) and who we are (qualities in us) that unlock the benefits of the exercises. What this means is that if you have built some extra qi, developed some more internal connectivity and stabilized your internal attention capability a little more, then the benefit/effect of any set of exercises is totally different than without these qualities. This morning I practiced a set called Ding shi from the Cheng Bagua style. I learned this set many years ago but I never really felt much benefit from it or appreciated what it did. I was always much more interested in the flashy application focused ba gua movement forms. Now with a bit more qi, some internal connectivity and some cues on how to approach it, ding shi is a whole new experience including some of its more esoteric aspects that were invisible to me before (e.g.using release to strike/move/turn, the influence of the circle, etc.) It’s gone from why bother to something I enjoy doing every day because the “who” that is practicing it has changed and with that the how to practice it has become clearer. I think this is a message to learn from the YJJ. If you look closely at qi gong, neigong/neidan, bagua, Xing yi, Yiquan, and taiji you can see how they all used the simple principle of bones up/releasing flesh down to build internal skill usually in static postures but also in the moving forms as well (like my ding shi). they may not acknowledge it or sadly sometimes even be aware of it, but it’s clearly there to see if you know what to to look for. so often the practices themselves are marketed as being special and our focus is on the exercises and movements. It drives us to collect sets of exercises like necklaces or baseball cards. Teachers market their sets as special, with special unique energies and even use fear (don’t mix with other systems!) to make them seem even more special. However, what is actually the important thing are the principles (how we do it) and the “who” that is practicing. Once some more of the qualities are in place then you can access the effects of many different exercises/different systems and have some discernment as to which one is applicable to your situation in that moment because you know the how and the who. It also shows you that both the really complex and the really simple forms can carry a similar benefit/effect. Qi gong is a lot more generic than many people think or want to admit.