Sahaja

For me I seem need to apply willpower initially to escape the “gravity” ofThe attachment to break the pattern . Once the effects of this gravity are reduced acceptance/emptiness works fine. I think going directly to emptiness for some people might not be realistic and perhaps result in an intellectual delusion. also another interpretation of returning to original may have a second meaning related to the alchemical process - stilling the Jing process as prep for alchemy. It’s about removing the stresses/attachments of everyday life so that one can go beyond normal functioning through cultivation of original Jing/qi etc. it’s not just breaking habits it’s about not being distracted or affected by the stimulus associated with them. In some cases this might require being away from modern society.

for Yang Taichi nerds Did a little research on the style, form and approach reflected in this teacher in the video’s teaching. As the story goes Laoliulu (old six roads or old six routines Yang form) was transmitted from Yang Jianhou (son of the Yang founder Yang Luchan) to a steward of the emperor named Wong Lu and to his son Wang Yongquan under a secrecy oath (with serious consequences if broken). The son Wang, while assigned to Yang Cheng Fu officially in the Yang family hierarchy taught YCF’s large frame form, he continued to also practice this original Yang Jianhou form that was not part of YCF’s transmission. Wang in his old age decided to break his oath and taught the form and its associated Yang family Neigong . One of his students he taught this to was a middle aged Ch’en taichi master by the name of Wei Shuren who in turn adjusted the original long form to create two shorter forms, a 22 and a 37. Interestingly enough after this Wang ended up in wheelchair. There are some videos of Wei Shuren practicing these forms on YouTube and Wang doing fa Jin from a wheelchair when he was very aged.. this approach has its own neigong that seems quite interesting (use of 3 circles, use of external qi and yi) you don’t see everyday, certainly not on videos on the internet. These are presented as part of the original Yang legacy of Yang Jianhou not filtered through YCF. I am not sure what the relationship of this teacher in the video is to Wei Shuren but I read some translations of excerpts from Wei’s writings and they appear to reflect what this teacher is sharing. I also read some of Wang’s writings. I was particularly impressed with one quote from Wang. “ To mobilize Qi, you create an empty space, by Soong and a light Yi to empty the area. The differentiation of yin and yang is what makes Qi flow.“ People talk about Yi leading the qi but I think this is a much more correct and clear explanation of what really takes place. Not only in taichi but in bagua as well. Wei Shuren has some books on Yang family Nei gong in Chinese that I would probably read if I had that capability. Interesting story.

For me the Nei Yeh captures what is important in cultivation of Jing (essence) It’s probably one of it not the oldest Daoist texts but what it says seems pretty spot on regarding cultivation with respect to Jing (before things got sexualized by daoists catering to royalty with concubines - in modern terms before they became political consultants) in talking about the Essence (Jing). about qi and the De of having them it says “The reason you lose it Is certainly due to worries and happiness, love and anger, desire for profit If you can leave behind worries and happiness, love and anger, desire for profit your heart mind then returns to its original nature successfully” .my understanding is that succumbing to our urges/habits/addictions burns Jing, applying discipline/willpower (zhi - kidneys) to not succumb builds it. So I would say both sex and looking at our cell phones are a small part of the equation, but it’s a much broader issue and more fundamental than any one thing. If one could avoid or reduce the stress of attachments, either desires or aversion, that helps return the Jing towards its original state- stills the Jing.

You are right. It’s a lot easier to release tension that you feel than that you don’t feel. However, most people have tension they carry that is below their perceptual radar either at the subconscious or unconscious level. Been working to become aware of and release some of the subconscious holding patterns lately. Very interesting. almost knocked myself over when I turned some of it off and the qi moved. Made me laugh. I guess some level of tension has a purpose but likely the majority of it is unnecessary and needlessly uses up our energy. as far as mixing things, I would say almost all of my teachers (and many of the old masters you read about) had studied more than one approach.so when they are teaching you you are getting something that is already mixed (at least energetically) whether they intend to mix or not. I think there are even some traditions that encourage this at a point in someone’s training to give them perspective. From a practical matter it’s good to separate different practices with a break so that you don’t confuse your body. Also if your body tells you not to do a practice (happened to me once), you should listen as it is possible that certain things don’t mix well but I think this is more the exception rather than the rule. Having a strong energetic anchor in the lower Dan tian absolves many potential energy issues.

While I think the video is good, my understanding is that once we start dealing with them as exercises you start introducing muscles and muscular contraction and tension which negates or runs counter to Yi Jin Jing. Essentially the basic process is for the flesh to hang off the bone without any self imposed tension - with only gravity elongating and stressing the connective tissue. The process focuses on releasing any tension you are imposing, whether consciously or unconsciously. Gravity and release of tension in the body then stresses the connective tissue. This starts the change process. The release also frees up qi you are using to hold the tension which can make things a little interesting, hehe. While there is nothing wrong with strengthening the body with conventional exercise that uses muscular contraction, it’s a different practice and it doesn’t do the same thing.

Video Reminds me of training I had back in the late 70s and early 80s. Palm strikes(palm and back of hand/fingertips) into bean bags/newspaper bundles and harder stuff, metal rings on the arms during circle walking, , doing low horse stance moving forms wearing 40 lbs of weight in a backpack while swinging a 20lb long metal staff, hitting the body to condition it (mostly with our own or another’s body), use of herbs and certain forms to deal with the bruising, jumping over obstacles head first onto a hard floor and rolling into a fighting stance, tons of very low stances (mole form or leg sweeps-moving very low to the floor underneath staffs held by the teacher ), lots of long static stances in twisty positions, work with swords, staffs, spears, halberds. Used to give demonstrations of one inch palm strikes to people visiting practice area. This was mostly waigong, external skill - using conventional body mechanics based on muscular contraction, though there were some links to neigong(internal skill). There can be a lot of power in waigong when you learn to use your whole body at the same time (e.g. waizhang or pozhang form). Good stuff to practice when you are young. For me now more interested in learning movement through (song) release which is associated with neigong. Interesting sound similarity wei and wai - governance/interference/action and external. Seems like a conceptual link as well - release of tension and listening (used in neigong) are both wu Wei and wu wai.

My interpretation of this is that what we have is what you say (forgery from 1600) but there is something more behind this reflected commonly across the internal arts.

The origin of Chan Buddhism has also been attributed to Bodhidharma (though there is a competing legend to this that his teacher originated it). He supposedly lived to be 150 years old.

The story goes that the monks had gotten ill from just sitting and not taking care of their bodies and this was impeding their cultivation. so Bodhidharma, a Buddhist monk that wasn’t from China -probably India, first (YJJ) dealt with their health then went beyond this into the marrow (which is developing the brain/heart - which means both the physical and the part beyond the physical) and then beyond this. all these stories we have are just legends but so are all the stories about the exercise sets. Legends built on legends. There is also a legend there is still one copy of the original somewhere being held in secret - legend- truth - who knows. however, bones up/releasing flesh down is so ubiquitous in the internal arts I think this has truth irrespective of the source and it works.

My point was that many schools used the principles in their training regime exercises but they aren’t the originals. The original was essentially how to use energy to support the full Buddhist path -particularly the second and third treatises (YJJ was the first treatise that took the individual from skin level depth to marrow depth - the others went far beyond this). Original was not about martial arts it was about using energy to support self cultivation to achieve enlightenment . All the sets today are derivative from this reflecting what those practitioners were able to glean as outsiders and what they were focused on because they were attracted to the power associated with it.. Generally they wanted to use this to support another purpose besides spiritual cultivation - like martially focused ones. Some of these applications are so old people think they reflect the original as evidenced by the comments here. Unfortunately many things get handed down that while having a grain of truth have many other grains as well for a variety of reasons, some intended some because they didn’t know better and just got passed them on without challenge.

If you’ll indulge me I’d like to make one more point that occurred to me when writing on this subject. when talking about sets of exercises in qi gong, we (myself included) often think the specific exercises are the key to the effects/benefits. It seems like a logical approach meaning that if we find the original or correct set of exercises it is just a matter of practice and time (with some cues or feedback). what I have found is more like the opposite - it’s the principles (how we do it) and who we are (qualities in us) that unlock the benefits of the exercises. What this means is that if you have built some extra qi, developed some more internal connectivity and stabilized your internal attention capability a little more, then the benefit/effect of any set of exercises is totally different than without these qualities. This morning I practiced a set called Ding shi from the Cheng Bagua style. I learned this set many years ago but I never really felt much benefit from it or appreciated what it did. I was always much more interested in the flashy application focused ba gua movement forms. Now with a bit more qi, some internal connectivity and some cues on how to approach it, ding shi is a whole new experience including some of its more esoteric aspects that were invisible to me before (e.g.using release to strike/move/turn, the influence of the circle, etc.) It’s gone from why bother to something I enjoy doing every day because the “who” that is practicing it has changed and with that the how to practice it has become clearer. I think this is a message to learn from the YJJ. If you look closely at qi gong, neigong/neidan, bagua, Xing yi, Yiquan, and taiji you can see how they all used the simple principle of bones up/releasing flesh down to build internal skill usually in static postures but also in the moving forms as well (like my ding shi). they may not acknowledge it or sadly sometimes even be aware of it, but it’s clearly there to see if you know what to to look for. so often the practices themselves are marketed as being special and our focus is on the exercises and movements. It drives us to collect sets of exercises like necklaces or baseball cards. Teachers market their sets as special, with special unique energies and even use fear (don’t mix with other systems!) to make them seem even more special. However, what is actually the important thing are the principles (how we do it) and the “who” that is practicing. Once some more of the qualities are in place then you can access the effects of many different exercises/different systems and have some discernment as to which one is applicable to your situation in that moment because you know the how and the who. It also shows you that both the really complex and the really simple forms can carry a similar benefit/effect. Qi gong is a lot more generic than many people think or want to admit.

yes based on my experience. I think Daoyin exercises go way back in time (at least 300 BC but likely earlier) but the YJJ principles are about using the energy body to change the physical body. Daoyin are more physical based exercises that are useful but do not do what YJJ is intended to do (open the body from the inside out with energy and prepare for deeper work with the “marrow”) the legend is that YJJ came from Bodhidharma a 5th century Buddhist monk from India who brought the practices to a monastery in China . He taught them to the monks to improve their health and to support them through all the stages of their Buddhist sadhana. My understanding is that after his time warriors/martial artists heard about the internal strength that were a byproduct of the YJJ based practices and came to the monastery to learn and incorporated some of the principles into their training regimes. I think this is how the YJJ became associated with martial arts and mixed with some of these more physical external based exercises. I believe that these physical exercise sets called YJJ were attributed much later to him to benefit from the yjj reputation for developing internal strength. Probably two key practices, standing in wuji letting the flesh hang off the bones and sitting anchoring the breath to the lower Dan tian. Both with the mind absorbed inside. While these appear to be static exercises, there is often a great deal of movement going on inside.

Actually instead of all the movements just stand and let the flesh hang off the bone and relax all muscular tension letting all your weight go to your feet (bones up/flesh down -key YJJ principle).. Eventually energy will move back up your legs into the torso on its own and your tissues will expand from pressurized qi and open, often quite dramatically. My understanding is that this kind of opening (sinew changing) is not accessible through external stretching and movement or from visualization or from direction with your intention, only through the internal movement of pressurized qi facilitated by release of tension, receptive attention inside and internal energetic connection between points. This process allows for new tissues to form in the space created by the pressure that will increase the amount of qi in the body and for tissue to connect internally throughout the body which becomes a repeating cycle building on itself. With correct positioning of the body’s center over the Dan tian, this will also develop at the same time providing an energetic anchor and internal qi storage/pump. After this initial change (takes 3 to 5 years) , working with energy in the body is relatively simple, often just involving a simple hand mudra or positioning of the palm or a release of tension. Without this internal change facilitated by pressurized qi all these external movement and breath forms at best just relax you, increase flexibility and help normal circulation - which isn’t bad and for sedentary people can be a game changer. They are also useful as preparation for the deeper work, but they are not the deeper work. My understanding is that the goal of sinew changing (channel opening) and marrow washing (changing the brain and heart) and the third (going beyond the mind) is a lot deeper and more profound than stretching and breathing and takes one well beyond normal good healthy functioning. Just as yoga is much more than just asana, the internal arts of East Asia are much more than just Daoyin exercises. My understanding is that the true original YJJ and related treatises from the 5th/6th century are not in the public domain if they currently even exist at all. I don’t believe documents prepared hundreds of years later showing them as physical exercises are valid representations of the original YJJ and related works. What we have left of it today are it’s principles that have elements built into certain internal development practices of martial arts and into other internal arts practices.

A couple of thoughts 1. The majority of people have some basic amount of values and morality inculcated into them by their upbringing and life experiences. From a cultivators standpoint behavior deviating from these internal standards can disturb the Jing, qi or shen making cultivation more difficult. There also can be physical and mental health consequences of this disturbance for anyone, cultivator or not. 2. Calm abiding, sympathetic joy, acceptance, equanimity etc arise naturally from deep cultivation. These have behavioral consequences in how we conduct ourselves and treat others. In deep cultivation they become the natural response, not contrived/imposed or with a root in attachment to an outcome or a goal or to egoic self interest. 3. While karma may exist, chasing merit or imposing external or even our own internal standards can become an attachment that impedes cultivation energetically or have other unintended consequences. learning to listen to the guidance and respond without attachment (either to the standards or to egoic self interest) is the work.

https://youtu.be/hwGk0k2NNRM?si=BZyaM9iUrvnwqsEc This video by him has a very interesting and clear differentiation of the various frames of yang tai chi. From his perspective Large frame uses internal qi (ti qi), middle frame uses external qi (ling qi) and small frame uses yi. Interesting discussion of application to weapons as well.

There is a technical term for this for men in their 40s. It’s called having a “Dad body”. Not everyone gets this but I sure did when I hit my 40s! however there maybe something else. Neigong that is based on the Yi Jin Jing principles (bones up/flesh down) opens you up - which means it literally, physically opens you up - it moves the bones further apart and stresses the connective tissues and over time more tissue forms as a result of this stress widening your body while at the same time making it more dense filling in the empty spaces. This tissue also builds into a connective web throughout the entire body creating internal relationships that didn’t seem to be there before. . During the process there are tremendous amounts of internal pressure created by the qi pushing you open expanding on the inside. It is the polar opposite of subtle and has both physical and energetic consequences. Being wider and denser may not be well aligned with current ideas of beauty, but it does make one quite a bit stronger and more grounded, both of which are quite useful on the path. Being stronger and more grounded helps one survive being a Dad too!

Thanks . In my journey I was exposed to many of this system’s practices through a different teacher. I enjoyed practicing them. Perhaps I will go back and revisit them someday. There are certainly a lot of practices in his system. Interesting origin story to the practices as well. I have many notes just with all the different breath percentages. A bit complicated breath and movement wise for me but they certainly had an energetic effect. However for me, many different practices have an energetic effect. Even relatively simple ones. thanks again for sharing. I’ve never had much ability relative to seeing energy or visual phenomena, I am a bit of a “brick” visually, so I enjoy hearing your experiences.

Very interesting. Thank you for broadening the spectrum of my request to give it perspective. Quite an eclectic grouping. Hope your liver is Ok and I apologize if my request resulted in any harm to you. I wasn’t thinking clearly about consequences of asking you to drink…sorry for that. In my understanding everyone has an energetic field that extends out from their body that is relatively thick very near their physical body generally resembling its shape that diffuses into a much less dense sphere further out. There are cultivation practices that utilize this basic energy field. Not sure whether this field is what you are referring to (at a much amplified level) or whether it’s something wholly different. Probably good you don’t see everyone’s field as that would be distracting indeed and make life a little difficult! thanks again for indulging my request.

Curious of what your read is of GM Doo Wai in the earlier video demonstrating healing qi gong.

I am not a TCM nor Western doctor so please take my suggestions accordingly. However I do have experience with zi fa gong, with ba Gua circle walking and static standing practice including Zhang Zhuang. Xing yi as well. From your description you mentioned two static energy building/gathering practices (Zhang Zhuang and Ding shi - static palm circle walking).but I didn’t pick up anything that I would describe as qi mobilization exercises. While zi fa gong can arise in ba gua (particularly with yin yang palm in ding shi practice which I don’t think you mentioned doing) I think it is much more quickly arising and more often associated with static standing practices. However once a pattern is created in standing, other practices can pick up a similar or related pattern as the body learns You also mentioned you did the standing postures for long enough to generate/gather a lot of qi (2 hours will definitely get it happening). Building qi without mobilizing and without sinking it to the lower Dan tian, can result in stagnation. Particularly if your Dan tian has not re-formed yet and isn’t developed enough to store yang qi. Also if it was really 2 hours with your arms in only one position out in front of your chest as opposed to some time down by lower body, you’ve given it a target for where the stagnation will likely arise. Many people come to the practice with tension behind tian tui (point between sternum and throat in the chest) that they have to learn to release (associated with ren channel and the vagus nerve). If this isn’t released (‘chest sunk”) before long Zhang Zhuang stands with arms up in front of the chest it could create quite a stagnation. Qi mobilization exercises are those movements that move the qi usually from the torso out to the limbs as forms of Jin. Can be a qi gong, tai chi or in bagua/Xing yi. Key is you are moving the qi as often as you build it usually with some opening and closing (filling/emptying ) in the body. Ideally you should be balancing these qi building/gathering exercises with qi mobilization exercises so your development is balanced. if you are experiencing serious shaking or tremors outside of practice that you can’t stop that are affecting your outside life, this would indicate a qi deviation (which from your description sounds related to stagnation) that should be addressed medically and likely would mean you should stop all internal practices for a period of time to allow your body and mind to reset as you likely developed a pattern that could be exacerbated by any internal practice. Again I’m no doctor, just a concerned bystander. Hope you find this helpful and find some release from your challenges.

It’s interesting to see different perspectives on the use of the term zi fa gong. My own usage would be it is a natural byproduct of energetic practice that covers a huge range of physical outcomes from slight undulations and contractions of flesh to yelling, speaking gibberish, prostrating and doing all manner of interesting “dances” that are not done consciously. I would term the practices that target producing it as a goal (rather than a by product) as spontaneous chi gongs such as Jenny’s yi gong practice. Further complicating the picture is that there are some qi gong exercises that have natural outcomes that if came up in different practices could be called zi fa gong (example a hunyuan chi gong that targets the belt channel gives an outcome that if shows up as a by product in a different practice might be termed zi fa gong). One could even argue that the various jins in internal martial arts - internal stretch and movement from release in tai chi - is not that dissimilar from tugging and contorting of flesh that can arise as a by product of chi gong when Lao gong is open and the hands pass over parts of the torso (or even just open and close).

You know there is a function where you can look at all the comments a person has written on Dao Bums. It should give you a pretty good insight into what each person likes and doesn’t like. It’s a pretty strong accountability for our comments. It’s also interesting to see how our views evolve over time, particularly those who’ve been here a long time. It’s a powerful tool but I think like with all powerful tools discretion is advised in its use, particularly if one is driven by the ego to win arguments.

I think a better question to ask is what does he teach and what can I learn from it. If you ask people’s opinion about him that have not trained with him I’m not sure how useful their opinions will be to you. He has quite a bit free online material on YouTube. Suggest you try it and see for yourself, use your own judgement.

Why “don’t bother”?

Here is a link to some articles that describe some of the physical mechanisms involved from a Nath Tantric Hatha Yoga perspective. The article on Shakti chalana talks about one of the main processes used, the churning. This stuff is challenging, takes a long time and requires an experienced guide. https://shadowyoga.com/articles