Sahaja

There is a technical term for this for men in their 40s. It’s called having a “Dad body”. Not everyone gets this but I sure did when I hit my 40s! however there maybe something else. Neigong that is based on the Yi Jin Jing principles (bones up/flesh down) opens you up - which means it literally, physically opens you up - it moves the bones further apart and stresses the connective tissues and over time more tissue forms as a result of this stress widening your body while at the same time making it more dense filling in the empty spaces. This tissue also builds into a connective web throughout the entire body creating internal relationships that didn’t seem to be there before. . During the process there are tremendous amounts of internal pressure created by the qi pushing you open expanding on the inside. It is the polar opposite of subtle and has both physical and energetic consequences. Being wider and denser may not be well aligned with current ideas of beauty, but it does make one quite a bit stronger and more grounded, both of which are quite useful on the path. Being stronger and more grounded helps one survive being a Dad too!

Thanks . In my journey I was exposed to many of this system’s practices through a different teacher. I enjoyed practicing them. Perhaps I will go back and revisit them someday. There are certainly a lot of practices in his system. Interesting origin story to the practices as well. I have many notes just with all the different breath percentages. A bit complicated breath and movement wise for me but they certainly had an energetic effect. However for me, many different practices have an energetic effect. Even relatively simple ones. thanks again for sharing. I’ve never had much ability relative to seeing energy or visual phenomena, I am a bit of a “brick” visually, so I enjoy hearing your experiences.

Very interesting. Thank you for broadening the spectrum of my request to give it perspective. Quite an eclectic grouping. Hope your liver is Ok and I apologize if my request resulted in any harm to you. I wasn’t thinking clearly about consequences of asking you to drink…sorry for that. In my understanding everyone has an energetic field that extends out from their body that is relatively thick very near their physical body generally resembling its shape that diffuses into a much less dense sphere further out. There are cultivation practices that utilize this basic energy field. Not sure whether this field is what you are referring to (at a much amplified level) or whether it’s something wholly different. Probably good you don’t see everyone’s field as that would be distracting indeed and make life a little difficult! thanks again for indulging my request.

Curious of what your read is of GM Doo Wai in the earlier video demonstrating healing qi gong.

I am not a TCM nor Western doctor so please take my suggestions accordingly. However I do have experience with zi fa gong, with ba Gua circle walking and static standing practice including Zhang Zhuang. Xing yi as well. From your description you mentioned two static energy building/gathering practices (Zhang Zhuang and Ding shi - static palm circle walking).but I didn’t pick up anything that I would describe as qi mobilization exercises. While zi fa gong can arise in ba gua (particularly with yin yang palm in ding shi practice which I don’t think you mentioned doing) I think it is much more quickly arising and more often associated with static standing practices. However once a pattern is created in standing, other practices can pick up a similar or related pattern as the body learns You also mentioned you did the standing postures for long enough to generate/gather a lot of qi (2 hours will definitely get it happening). Building qi without mobilizing and without sinking it to the lower Dan tian, can result in stagnation. Particularly if your Dan tian has not re-formed yet and isn’t developed enough to store yang qi. Also if it was really 2 hours with your arms in only one position out in front of your chest as opposed to some time down by lower body, you’ve given it a target for where the stagnation will likely arise. Many people come to the practice with tension behind tian tui (point between sternum and throat in the chest) that they have to learn to release (associated with ren channel and the vagus nerve). If this isn’t released (‘chest sunk”) before long Zhang Zhuang stands with arms up in front of the chest it could create quite a stagnation. Qi mobilization exercises are those movements that move the qi usually from the torso out to the limbs as forms of Jin. Can be a qi gong, tai chi or in bagua/Xing yi. Key is you are moving the qi as often as you build it usually with some opening and closing (filling/emptying ) in the body. Ideally you should be balancing these qi building/gathering exercises with qi mobilization exercises so your development is balanced. if you are experiencing serious shaking or tremors outside of practice that you can’t stop that are affecting your outside life, this would indicate a qi deviation (which from your description sounds related to stagnation) that should be addressed medically and likely would mean you should stop all internal practices for a period of time to allow your body and mind to reset as you likely developed a pattern that could be exacerbated by any internal practice. Again I’m no doctor, just a concerned bystander. Hope you find this helpful and find some release from your challenges.

It’s interesting to see different perspectives on the use of the term zi fa gong. My own usage would be it is a natural byproduct of energetic practice that covers a huge range of physical outcomes from slight undulations and contractions of flesh to yelling, speaking gibberish, prostrating and doing all manner of interesting “dances” that are not done consciously. I would term the practices that target producing it as a goal (rather than a by product) as spontaneous chi gongs such as Jenny’s yi gong practice. Further complicating the picture is that there are some qi gong exercises that have natural outcomes that if came up in different practices could be called zi fa gong (example a hunyuan chi gong that targets the belt channel gives an outcome that if shows up as a by product in a different practice might be termed zi fa gong). One could even argue that the various jins in internal martial arts - internal stretch and movement from release in tai chi - is not that dissimilar from tugging and contorting of flesh that can arise as a by product of chi gong when Lao gong is open and the hands pass over parts of the torso (or even just open and close).

You know there is a function where you can look at all the comments a person has written on Dao Bums. It should give you a pretty good insight into what each person likes and doesn’t like. It’s a pretty strong accountability for our comments. It’s also interesting to see how our views evolve over time, particularly those who’ve been here a long time. It’s a powerful tool but I think like with all powerful tools discretion is advised in its use, particularly if one is driven by the ego to win arguments.

I think a better question to ask is what does he teach and what can I learn from it. If you ask people’s opinion about him that have not trained with him I’m not sure how useful their opinions will be to you. He has quite a bit free online material on YouTube. Suggest you try it and see for yourself, use your own judgement.

Why “don’t bother”?

Here is a link to some articles that describe some of the physical mechanisms involved from a Nath Tantric Hatha Yoga perspective. The article on Shakti chalana talks about one of the main processes used, the churning. This stuff is challenging, takes a long time and requires an experienced guide. https://shadowyoga.com/articles

It’s very interesting that he actually uses the term ling qi on the video screen for what he describes as extracorporeal qi in the audio. My understanding is that Ling qi can have a pretty deep spiritual connotation whereas extracorporeal qi seems more of a general term that could mean many different things. My experience with tai chi is pretty limited, is ling qi something that is commonly viewed as part of the 8 energies or is his interpretation/usage pretty unique? I also don’t recall any reference to the 5 directions and how they might be related to this.

My understanding is these are sounds that come out of you associated with activity in an individual organ system. In other words they are outputs that have some diagnostic value not sounds you make to influence the organs. However, this one started going around and now it’s pretty much institutionalized. So much so I will probably upset someone that reads this - so my apologies! Many things are like this in cultivation where people conflate outcome with a practice. Another is tucking the tailbone - the back straightens somewhat as a long term natural outcome from many hours of practice but someone mistakenly turned this into something you do/impose that ironically slows down the cultivation process that it’s intended to enhance. Another one I might get in trouble for.

Used to do a metta practice when I worked in the corporate world and found it to be an impactful practice. This world had stress/negativity built in and my job was to help manage/ameliorate/direct behavior across the organization, sort of a double-whammy. I got a lot out of it for managing my own response particularly to the most difficult people and situations, so my counsel would be to include them not avoid them. The process was the simple stepping out easiest to hardest to show loving kindness to that I would do before I started my day and as needed. The practice outcome had two components, how I felt in the moment of the practice and a heightened awareness during my day. Can’t say it turned me into a wonderful person, but I think it helped me find a better balance.

There is an interesting parallel between amrta and the jade fluid in the two traditions (tantric yoga and Neidan) though there is variance in methodology (e.g Khecari mudra/Nyasa vs MCO). My understanding is that Jing is not sexual energy though it may be a very, very small part of it. . According to the early Daoists (Nei Yeh) Jing is qi in consolidated form that is required for life and that we are naturally endowed with. According to them, it is lost through desire, emotions and selfishness. Stilling these things stills the Jing allowing it to be in its natural state (and to fuel the cultivation process in Neidan). my understanding is there are paths of addition that cultivate energetics and paths of subtraction that don’t. However, in the end the paths of subtraction also end up energetically in the same place as the paths of addition. I imagine this last step for those on the paths of subtraction must be quite exciting! I think people tend to dumb down Kundalini into simple energetics. My understanding is that Kundalini is at a much deeper level than cultivating Jing and qi. It’s more like at the refining shen level in Neidan. In yoga people get kriyas and call it Kundalini, in Daoist internal arts they get the similar kriyas and call it Yang qi or Zi Fa Gong. It’s less problematic in Daoist arts because they have cultivated a strong grounding mechanism, the lower Dan tian, to keep the excess Yang qi out of the head. Yoga has the kanda but I don’t think that many cultivate this as a grounding mechanism leading to more energetic issues with “Kundalini”.

Yes it’s my understanding that different systems work differently and it’s possible that two systems may not work together very well, or even offset one another. However, I’m skeptical when I hear teachers using fear to make their system seem special or special external energies to make their program unique. It’s a red flag for me.

Yes I do. When I write something I try to limit it to what I believe is public and what I have experience with. I try to focus on the commonalities between different, unrelated teachers I’ve had . I also know that I am still learning and what I know in the future will be different from today. What I learned two years ago that I practice today manifests very differently. It’s a tricky path to write about but a good discipline to follow.

It’s my understanding that Qi gong is not a an air/breath practice. Qi is not the air/breath. Qi has a specific physical reality that arises and manifests separately from the air/breath and feels and behaves differently than the air/breath. Qi does not require involvement of the air/breath to mobilize or move. It’s not limited where it is in the body like the air/breath is, it goes everywhere. Qi doesn’t even care about the acupuncture channels. Though it often uses these channels, qi sometimes moves through the body without any regard to them filling and pressurizing any available space. It’s mostly moved by the position of the hands in qi gong once Lao gong is open and the Dan tian is forming. In that way it can be quite specifically compliant to directions you give with your body/hands (but not mind). It’s influenced by the mind with a different mechanism. Qi moves/sinks/rises/expands/contracts when awareness touches the places where it resides, mixes with it and the mind relaxes/releases tension without providing specific instructions/governance. Reverse breathing can be used to help open and close the Dan tian to influence the circulation of qi but it’s not air/breath that is circulated, its qi that circulates. Once the Dan tian reaches a level of development it opens and closes on its own circulating the qi without involvement or any linkage at all to the air/breath. This dan tian opening/closing on its own is not metaphorical, it’s has a physical component that moves the flesh in shared reality. When this arises, it doesn’t care what you believe or what you expect or what your opinion is, it just does its thing and you just “listen”. I think someone somewhere once translated qi in a metaphorical/poetical way as “the breath of heaven or breath of the Dao” or something like that and that translation stuck because people translating it had never directly experienced qi. However once you’ve directly worked with qi, the early Daoist references to inner cultivation make much more sense and there is no need to translate qi, it’s just qi.

It’s an energetic relationship used in ba gua (and I guess in Xing Yi as well ) Given how old the 5 element model is (well over 2000 years - 2nd or 3rd BCE), it makes me question how it took until the 19th century (Dong Hai Chuan) to get included in martial arts. I guess Xing yi 5 elements is older but still only 400 years plus or minus. Makes me wonder what was there before these “founders” as I don’t think they figured out these subtle, complex relationships on their own from scratch. Seems like it would have required some sort of evolution prior to this incorporation into these relatively modern arts. Particularly if these modern founders focus was fighting, not science.

Practiced with the Wood tiger this morning. Its cool when the internal martial arts make a measurable physical connection in the body that is based on the 5 element model. It takes it way beyond the conceptual when the flesh contorts/twists/ changes from a cause that appears unrelated based on a Western understanding of physiology. Dudes that discovered this stuff must have been crazy smart and perceptive. perhaps in 500 years the US will have the cult of the orange George Washington who saved it from democracy. Perhaps it’s already there.

While I agree that Buddhists are less prone to using violent or oppressive means than their Abrahamic counterparts, recent history in Sri Lanka and Myanmar shows they are not immune. i think that once any religion gets institutionalized and entangled with royalty/government , somebody is likely going to suffer. Usually someone from a competing religious or ethnic group. Women often get demonized as well. As far as Buddhism as a science, I think it may be different at its root from other religions but I also see that people seem to have created a religious framework for it, certainly at the grassroots level. It’s particularly ironic how Buddhism seems to have collected religious accoutrements seemingly so contrary to its founders purported intentions. Daoism also may have started in a similar way (philosophy based on self cultivation practiced by recluses) but later turned into a religion in the 1st century CE and Laozi turned from an obscure librarian into a god. Seems like there is a natural pressure to turn things into religions. Makes me wonder about 500 years hence what may have turned into religion.

It’s my understanding and experience that qi is pretty robust. It seems to be there regardless of the physical conditions, even when logically it seems it shouldn’t be. However, the one thing it doesn’t take too well is overthinking and control with intention. You can welcome it but if you try to control it, particularly with left brain linear analytical thought to “figure it all out”, it will be hard to find indeed. Wu wei, Ziran and Xun were originally not just high sounding philosophical concepts from the early Daoists. They were practical guides to cultivation as well (along with Song and Ting) from a practical standpoint, unless your teacher says specifically not to do something, just keep practicing and don’t think about it too much. Use your common sense and your physical reaction to guide your practice. Pay attention to how different practices affect you and adjust accordingly. Eat well, sleep early (by 10pm) and balance time spent in internal practice (energy/meditative) with external physical exercise. Even if you make an error, it may result in a learning that provides benefits to you and others in the long run. You also likely have the magic of youth (under age 60) in your favor that enables quick recovery.

As you read the opinions, note whether the person with the opinion has any direct experience with the specific person or practice being critiqued. Often people have a very strong opinion based on very little or no direct experience. Suggest whatever counsel you take get it from someone that has actually practiced with someone or that specific practice for a year or more. It’s very easy to be swayed by strongly held views. However strongly held views may often be found to bereft of much substance when examined critically.

My more prosaic view is that if your internal and outer views/behaviors are different it disturbs and depletes qi (affects other two treasures as well). It weakens you as the dichotomy will create more distracting, discursive thought. Shame, guilt, lying and rationalizing burn a lot of mental and even physical energy (for non sociopaths!). This energy is then not available for cultivation and this is limiting. as far as non duality, seems to me if you are really there its not an issue as there is no choice, no doing, no separation - you are just there. When you are beyond the opposites there is no sincere as there is no insincere. I view things like this as outcome of a path rather than the path itself.

Short answer is no. As long as you just let it do its thing, don’t attach to it and don’t participate in it (as in don’t add into the movements with your own conscious movements)Just treat it as an amusing irrelevance like farting or burping. Allow it to leave/stop when it’s done it’s work. Don’t hold onto it. It will likely eventually change to something else. It’s part of a cycle of change. Also remember it’s your qi so if you tell it to stop, it will. I think as you read about it you will find three views 1. It’s bad. Don’t do it. It’s unhealthy. I 2. It’s good, it’s the practice , it reveals deep secrets and esoteric energies. (Some teachers will try to hook you into this) 3. It’s a natural part of the energetic change process. Don’t seek it and don’t avoid it. I think number 3 is the correct response. For me it’s actually been quite a helpful process. one caveat would be if you are under a doctors care being treated for schizophrenia or other very serious mental disorder, suggest you refrain from any internal meditative or energetic practice. Do external exercise with physical body only if this is the case.

I’ve had some instruction/explanation in cultivation from both South Asian and East Asian perspectives on “reverting the semen to the brain” and “gathering and swallowing spit” and this language and presentation is a pretty misleading description of what is actually taught. I think sexual based and imagination based practices are also very far off the mark. However I can also see how these views/descriptions could have arisen by partial knowledge/ crude understandings and people looking for the provocative to sell their wares in the spiritual marketplace (particularly to royalty/rich elites looking for quick solutions to their personal issues) I find the old proto Daoist writings quite inspiring and helpful in conveying the behaviors important in internal cultivation that often seem lost in later writings in their obscure (and in some cases obsfucating) explanations. I guess I also like that no pantheons or complex rituals seem to be required to embrace their principles (though whether or not they were part of it is difficult to tell). What I do find difficult to imagine is reclusive proto Daoists being asked to give direction on practices to reduce personal desires to kings involved in political intrigue.That seems like hippie anarchists being asked to be consultants to todays politicians, sort of boggles the mind, particularly to some of our more narcissistic politicians . However, the other side of that is their methods and philosophy had to be robust to survive such encounters. just to make the Chan reference even more complicated is the perhaps mythical figure of Bodhidharma (purported Chan founder) and his multiple texts (all now lost) outlining the principles of a complete Ming/Xing process that takes one through full body development all the way to enlightenment. While much is lost, the very widespread powerful practice of standing post (wuji, Taiyi, santishi, zhuang zhang etc) that is seminal to many martial arts and neigong/neidan systems is purportedly based on one of the principles (letting the flesh hang off the bones or bones up, flesh down) from the first of these texts attributed to Bodhidharma. Raises a host of questions. Definitely a riddle wrapped in an enigma!