Sherman Krebbs

These quotes are great.  One thought I had on "effort" is that great satisfaction can be gotten in life through hard work, discipline, getting things done, and accomplishing something great.  From these quotes, one might get the impression that no effort equals no doing, and visa versa.  My view is a little different, that unlocking open awareness is the path to achieving ones ultimate potential in life, basically by doing without doing.  

I am still monkeying with the lock, however : )

My understanding is that the status of Daoism as a "religion," rather than a philosophy, dates back at least to the 13th century, when  following a visit from the Quasi-Daoist Monk Ch'ang Ch'un in the winter of 1223, Chinggis Kahn issued a decree (later rumored to be false) giving Daoists tax exempt status.  That decree was later recognized by the Yuan dynasty.     

During that time, there were serious political and philosophical disputes between the Buddhists (the favored religion of the Yuan) and the Daoists, and absent tax exempt status, the Daoist monks would have had a much harder time getting their wu wei on. : )

Interestingly, following much political turmoil between the two sects, in the summer of 1255, Mongke Kan decided that the philosophical issues between the two had to be settled in a public debate.  That debate was held and the Daoists were allegedly defeated (although they did not admit defeat).  Shortly thereafter there was a second debate in 1258, in which Confucians were established as the referees.  And, big suprise, the Daoists were soundly defeated again.  

Got this from a book called Imperial Nomads by Luc Kwanten. 

Sometimes the thing you are looking for is found when you stop searching.  Look around.  Life is amazing, whatever path it puts you on.  Buddhist philosophy is just one of many pairs of sneakers you can wear while walking.  Don't lose sight of the forest over the sneakers.  :  )

On 1/30/2024 at 7:07 PM, silent thunder said:

In my experience suffering is not required. 

 

Gautama taught the methods to cease imposing suffering and be free.

 

Suffering seems an overlay, an imposition atop the process of reality through the unskillful means of aversion, attachment and lack of wisdom.

 

One may experience discomfort, pain, inconvenience, ignorance... that does not mean one must suffer.

My view lately has been bit more pessimistic, though I appreciate the positivity.  I tend to view suffering and pain as being necessary. Something one must grin and bear (with a positive attitude, as you say). Labeling painful experiences as “not suffering”, though wont make them go away.

On 1/18/2024 at 11:36 PM, Nungali said:

Often relating to artistic expression especially if it fulfils  'great work' .

Much to be said about "artistic" happiness.   Loosing oneself in the pursuit of the artistic expression of life.  Hope everyone is having a good day!  Pass on the good vibes! 

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-021-92194-z  interesting article (which I just skimmed) about fascia to this point. 

10 hours ago, Apotheose said:

I remember reading an interesting critique about Stoicism once. The comment was that the Stoics perceived the world in a kind of pessimistic view because one of their very philosophical foundations was that “living is overcoming tribulations”.

 

This got me thinking about Epicureans; found this quote on wikipedia:

Quote

When we say ... that pleasure is the end and aim, we do not mean the pleasures of the prodigal or the pleasures of sensuality, as we are understood to do by some through ignorance, prejudice or wilful misrepresentation. By pleasure we mean the absence of pain in the body and of trouble in the soul. It is not by an unbroken succession of drinking bouts and of revelry, not by sexual lust, nor the enjoyment of fish and other delicacies of a luxurious table, which produce a pleasant life; it is sober reasoning, searching out the grounds of every choice and avoidance, and banishing those beliefs through which the greatest tumults take possession of the soul.

— Epicurus, "Letter to Menoeceus"

Funny, I had always misunderstood Epicureanism to be pleasure seeking hedonism; though it is really more of a middle ground philosophy.    

5 hours ago, Cadcam said:

The Buddha says one needs to know Right Action to avoid suffering, but there is no way to prevent suffering, because all action leads to desire, either for one's self, or for other people. If I take an action, I cause someone to desire, or I am working upon acquiring a desire. Therefore this premise is faulted. There is no way to prevent desire, which he says causes suffering. 

Not speaking for Buddhism, but I know no answer other than to just suck it up and accept that life is full of pain and tribulation. I'd not trust anyone who says otherwise.

By acting diligently and authentically, however, a lot of life's pitfalls can be avoided.  That to me is the point of it all, though I am constantly digging myself out anyway.    

watching the watcher

hearing sounds of listening 

feelings feel themselves sensing the senses

a painting is painted

a canvas floods with color 

painter paints with brush in hand

space dissolves to black and white

till one remains

Still the painter paints

On 12/27/2023 at 2:52 AM, Nungali said:

In a debate or discussion or even a fun talk      .... its not really valid to suppose what someone meant wrongly with an example and then attack your own example to show how 'they' where wrong .

Sorry for this.  Was not really meaning very much by those posts nor trying to attack a viewpoint, so apologies if they elicited controversy or feelings.  I think I was trying to say maybe I was wrong (which is usually 50% of the time)...

1 minute ago, Maddie said:

 

Have you ever met or spoken to a living person that you felt was deluded?

Yes.  I have seen drug addicts on the street.  I have worked with mentally unstable people.  While I have not met them, I have many questions about our world leaders.   Is a drug addict living on the street deluded? The addict is certainly not living up to his potential, but then again addiction is a terrible thing.   The addiction will crush him causing immense suffering, which only intensifies the addiction.  If he does not break the cycle, it will probably kill him.  Alternatively he might recover, and perhaps, as many people having overcome addiction, will gain great insight and perhaps some form of enlightenment from the process. Does my opinion of him being deluded, or not, matter in this process?

I cant however quite come up with a similar example for world leaders : )

Also, I was not trying to dispute anything you said, nor meaning too much by these posts other than having fun equivocating on the word delusional.  I think people object to the term--as it is most often used as a derogative--not necessarily the concept of the way you were meaning it. I'd also encourage people not to take offense so easily--takes just as much ego to take offense as it does giving it.  

11 minutes ago, Maddie said:

 

And what does the reality of living mean?

Not meaning too much by it other than life is real. For example, if you accept life is real, then you are not deluded.  One might posit that their composite person (i.e. aggregates) are empty null, void, illusory, etc., the life they are living is still very real and meaningful. Nihilism is a sad disease. Whether others might accept certain concepts which I happen to believe in deeply, it does not distract from the meaningfulness of their own lives, in which they will find their own paths to the end state, however many eons or whatever form it might take.  Therefore, how can we be deluded so long as we are living. 

4 minutes ago, Maddie said:

How does a person that wakes up from sleeping know they're awake?

I usually pinch myself  :  ).   

I think the point I was trying to make is:  we are all awake, at least while we are not sleeping.  One ceases to be deluded when one accepts the reality of living.  

We all have our different paths and places in the world, and fundamentally are dealing with our own "delusions" and suffering in our own lives in our own ways.  There is no single right or wrong (or deluded) path; in the end karma/Dao guides.  In other words, we are all equally perfect the way we are (however delusional we may unknowingly be).     

On 12/23/2023 at 5:04 AM, Master Logray said:

It is about levels.  Relaxed mind starts to be empty.  Empty mind is empty of conscious thinking.  No mind means we no longer feel mind activities.   Then comes sleep and coma.   These are what we observed and classified.  But sometimes coma people can recall what happened during their coma.  It shows the mind is never totally empty.  

 

Thoughts as empty.  It is new to me. 

Prajnaparamita establishes that all phenomenon, including thoughts, are basically empty, which forms the basis for my understanding, thought I am still very much studying, learning and trying to improve.   I've not made much progress with Internal Alchemy,  just read a few books, and understand there can be many different approaches and objectives.  

For me, if I sit and look inwardly, I eventually find that there nothing there, there is nothing to find, no answers to be obtained.  The mind is empty, along with all of the complications that arise within it.  It is not as if the mind is blank, and empty of thinking--thoughts come and go.  It is the thoughts, and everything that makes up the mind, that are empty, including the things I see, the sounds I hear, the smells I smell etc.  The complexities of life are all mind-made and empty, and with that recognition, I can sit and relax, resolving the mental turbulence of the day, so to speak.  

6 hours ago, Daniel said:

A proper analogy is, one who is no longer deluded can better spot those that are currently deluded, because, they know what it looks like and feels like.

How can a deluded person ever know that they are no longer deluded?  isn't it a priori that they don't know.  Therefore, how could anyone ever really spot a deluded one.  Aren't we just spotting one with whom there is disagreement?  

imo, we are all deluded, and maybe accepting being deluded gets us not much closer to being undeluded.  e.g. acceptance of delusion could be equally delusional.. kind of a GOD Over Djinn problem. 

In a way, if there are only delusions, and there can be nothing else, maybe a delusion is a contradiction.  Maybe we are not delusional at all, but just real, actual people sitting in front of computers writing cute things on the internet.   

48 minutes ago, Master Logray said:

 

How do you use no-mind to achieve some other objectives?   You practically lose control.  Even from an observer viewpoint, you cannot set the course for anything?

Is a relaxed and calm mind the same as an empty mind?

My experience is that the mind is never really empty or blank.  Thoughts (and other things) are constantly arising.  If my mind is relaxed, however, I can come to regard thoughts (and everything else) as empty.  Thoughts are nothing and the same is true for all other mental phenomenon. With that recognition, I can release the thoughts (and other things) as quickly as they arise and not grasp onto them...  and just kind of chill...  My "course of action" recently has been "no course of action," though to your point, getting there still requires a periodic thought that I am following "no course of action."   I let this thought arise, and like all others, I make a note of it and move on, or at least that is what I try to do.  

Thanks @stirling.  I was not aware that you were a Zen/Dzogchen teacher, and that was helpful to me in understanding your response.  Have often though about the similarities between Zazen and Dzogchen, though surely for another thread.  Hope you have a good day.

12 hours ago, stirling said:

open awareness IS actualizing enlightenment

For me, being in a state where I regard mental phenomena as empty leads to such an awareness. Part and parcel so to speak. 

One question I have had with the term "open awareness" is what is it that one is openly aware of?  I have also seen the term "primordial awareness", which I like and kind of answers this question from some perspectives, though I may be misusing it in this context. Have also seen the term "authentic awareness" in a bonpo book, i.e. awareness of ones authentic being, which I also liked. 

On 29.11.2023 at 12:30 AM, Daniel said:

The forgotten-memory which is remembered exists beyond thought.  The forgotten-memory which is remembered exists prior to appearing in the mind.  When it is remembered it is a thought appearing in the mind.  Before it is remembered, it is not thought

Memories are the worst.  The good ones I want to relive and the bad ones I want to forget, but they keep popping up in my head. 

On 25.11.2023 at 9:25 PM, Sleepy Bluejay said:

Like, what do you do or what do you focus on?

How does it feel? What is your experience with it?

 

Also I would like to know what you personally do doing Tai Chi, etc. and how/where do you move the "energies" within your meridians?

My experience is that there is no single "right" technique for meditation, nor is there a single "right" purpose for it either.  There are as many different techniques as there are people with opinions on the subject. There are focused techniques, unfocused techniques, moving techniques, etc.  To figure out what works, trial and error is all I've come up with, though my own experience is that dzogchen training works best for what I am trying to accomplish. 

You might also give some thought as to what your purpose for meditating is and what you are trying to accomplish.  Some meditate to train their minds, others for spiritual purposes, others to accumulate martial power, some to for emotional stress,  etc.  This is also something that might change over time as you practice. 

The Zazen technique is always a good starting technique.  The book Zen Mind, Beginner's Mind by Shunryū Suzuki is a good reference.  Another reference on dzogchen that helped me is in the video link below. 

https://www.padmasambhava.org/2017/08/complete-instructions-for-dzogchen-meditation/

Most important, however, is just to practice, even if you are not confident you are doing things right. 

  my advice, if you find a good lady, sleep with her, marry her and have children. Giving up jing is the least you can do for her. 

On 12/6/2022 at 2:47 AM, ralis said:

 

Actually no. There are many that join this site looking for exotic teachings such as MoPai including all the fake promises made by followers of MoPai and others that have advertised here. This site for some odd reason attracts those that have an incessant need to play with fire. When an amateur practitioner gets burned it is expected that some on this site may provide salvation and wound healing of sorts. It is very easy to light the flame, but it can get out of control rather quickly. 

Looking at old posts, looks like a controversial topic... This explanation is helpful.  

.

re the unified field thing.  my lay person, space opera theory (been reading alistar reynolds) was that rather than a unified field, there are infinite fields.  like maybe there are more fields that do not in anyway interact with the higgs field, or any of the other known fields (dont ask me to name them). we'd have no way to know anything about other fields beyond our limit of reality.  be like a fish trying to figure out what it looks like on the top of mount everest. what ever the case, maybe part of the sprituatlity side of the equation is accepting that there are things about the Universe that fish are just incapable of comprehending.  sometimes I feel contented being a fish, though sometimes it feels like I end up on the dinner plate.

On 1.12.2022 at 7:51 PM, dwai said:

That was not my takeaway from this talk. Towards the end of this talk, he discusses the different schools of Tibetan Buddhism and shows where Advaita Vedanta and Tibetan Buddhism converge. 

Might check out Infinite Jewels sutra for some similar thinking as OP, getting to the converging  views discussed above:  https://read.84000.co/translation/Toh118.html