YMWong

Very nice, agree on all counts YM

Scotty, quite a bit of the maoshan tradition is 'medical' in nature, and this is history not wishful thinking. Some of the techniques utilized by the early masters has been passed down to lay doctors and are still employed in chinese medicine. For instance, and the specific of the poem cited, there is a traditional system called 俯按山源 (fu an shanyuan - bend and press 'mountain spring') that is still employed by masseurs in China. You are of course entitled to read anything in the poem. Names have of course a specific meaning. Some names are common to various Daoist Schools, some others are specific to a specific tradition - and you can know the ACTUAL meaning of those names ONLY if you belong to that specific tradition. Similarly to any technical jargon in ANY specific field of studies, a doctor will understand the medical jargon, an engineer will understand the technical jargon - I don't think that's hard to understand, no ? If that was not enough, you superimpose your own culture and its background on a totally different one trying to interpretate a poem in translation: that's obviously clear in your various attempts. I could go on, but if what I said was not enough I guess anything more would just be a waste of your and my time. Be well YM

Scotty, I understand you, like everybody else, is trying to make sense of the little info in your possession. But since you say you are 'rationale' please try to be it. Your *understanding* of a poem from an english article totally out of context and used as "proof that Max has been taught Maoshan" is not rationale, is poor use of fantasy. It is at best delusional, in my opinion. Your rationale would have sound exactly the same if you had said "Heavenly Horses are the hands: oh gosh, Max has TWO hands - this is the proof that he is Maoshan Daoist !". Let me ask you: how can you say "I agree 'heavenly horses' are the hands" ? On the base of WHAT ? You then go as far as to say: So now it could be that you are right and commentators from Maoshan Tradition in the Daoist Canon are wrong ? Are you kidding me or yourself ?!? Not happy you finally add that: What "effect" are you talking about ? The energetic one from the crown your fantasy has made up and that you explain in your message or the one from the text ? It suffices to read a little more of Russel's article to understand that - and I quote: I apologize for being so direct, Scotty, but hopefully my comments can help get you back on track YM

Cameron, a Maoshan Shangqing Pai Daoist, like any other orthodox daoist, would have no problem to disclose his lineal name, the poem from which it derives, the name of his teachers and - if he/she is less known/hermit or the likes - a few teachers above him/her. YM

By the way Scotty, just a few comments on your "rationale" which is based solely on your 'feelings' but without ANY actual direct knowledge of the Maoshan Tradition: 'Mountain Spring' (shanyuan) 山源 IS an area below the nose which basically correspond to 'renzhong'人中 (centre, between nose and lips) and is also referred in the Maoshan Tradition as to 'Ghosts Well' (guijin), 'Spirits Lake' (shenchi) or 'Ghosts Altar' (guitai). 'Heavenly Horse' 天馬 ARE the hands. The Zhen Gao quoted in the article expressely explains to PRESS (an) 按 a specific area with the hands. Various other texts and commentaries discuss the technique at length "[...] with the second and third finger of the left hand, at the 'renzhong' point below the nostrils [...]" (from "Lingqian Zi Yindao Ziwu Ji" - Dongxuan Bu - Daozang / Daoist Canon ~ just to quote one). The manipulation is done in order to 'guijin bimen' (close the door of the Ghosts Well) and is preceded and followed by a series of 'massages' (for lack of a better word) to various areas/points on the head in a specific sequence and with specific significance. For your info YM

Well, at least you finally managed to express an idea that I can agree with YM

Hello Scotty, if you find what I said offensive I am sorry but I am afraid you'll have to live with that, as we clearly give different value to the words "feeling" and "rationale". If reading and re-interpreting a few articles (Poul Anderson's work has been mentioned before) is a "sign of being taught actual Maoshan" in your mind I respect your opinion but strongly disagree. Moreover, to be "taught Maoshan teachings" is totally irrelevant to the claim of being a Daoshi in the Maoshang Shangqing Pai, similarly to claim of having a medical degree at Harvard simply having read an anatomy book. Made up practice does not necessarily "do nothing": ALL and EVERY existing practice has been "made up" by somebody, somewhere in history no ? Moreover, you simply need to participate in one of the many born-again-christian shows that are so common especially in the US to see that it doesn't take much to "feel good energetic practice" for one who wants to believe it. Best YM

One good thing about this Forum is that all POV's are accepted - so I offer mine. Everyone makes up his mind through different means and apparently most of the KL supporters base theirs on *feeling*: as I said, I am sure Max is good in the eyes of those who trust him. While I consider myself a pragmatic in many ways, if I am introduced to somebody who is nice and tells me that he is a Science Graduate from Harvard but then fails to even know where Harvard is ... I may continue to consider him nice by *feeling* but won't trust him anymore and certainly won't rely on him for scientific knowledge. But, again, I understand that others may see things different YM

Good stuff, but I think you are missing the main ingredient: YM *** choose any or all

Don't waste your time, you won't go too far. He studied with a Lion Dance/Gongfu/Martial Arts Master (Andrew Lum) in Hawaii that he (Max) claims is from a Daoist <sic> Maoshan Lineage they have no idea of. He studied with Jenny Lamb, but recently claims to be his 'brother', who teaches a Spontaneous Qigong set whom he (Max) claims to be the basis of his Kunlun ~ a name he most probably made up. He claim to have studied with another master from Wudang since a young age, which I have no reasons to disbelieve, and most probably is another Martial Arts teacher sold as Daoist Master. He is certainly very good, in the eyes of those who believe him. YM

Since you are in Najing you should read this: http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/china/2007-11...ent_6261586.htm YM

That was not my point. My point was: if the real reason money is paid is to off-set Goss karma then why does MTS requires money from others ? And if he requires money with the 'wrong' intention (according to his own rules) from others then how does the action you describe below takes place ? Then you say that he must resolve the root of the problem: but you propose to do it with a Talisman ?!? If the root of the problem is that guy than go and talk to him, beat him or sue him: what does a talisman have to do with such a problem I am afraid I don't get it. I say propose an appropriate action (simply act like 90% of 'normal' people would do in this case and you're probably ok) and I'd support Goss with a hundred bucks, instead of ten. YM

Lily Siou has been telling *fantastic* (creative immagination ...) stories for years and, after so many years, it seems that there are still gullible who believe her. Let me therefore rehiterate that: (from her site) The Zhang (Chang) family won't give any 'lineage holder' position to a lady as that won't conform to their own regulations that has been followed for 2000 years. Moreover, Zhang Enpu LEFT China in 1949 (with the Nationalists) to Taiwan where he settled and remained until his death in 1969. YM

Stig, I am eager to help with whatever money is necessary but given the conditions as I saw in this thread they would be - in my opinion - a total waste of money. First of all because, according to Mr. Mak post, money are necessary to resolve a karma issue of the person involved in the 'transaction'. In which case I can't see how can he want money coming from other parties. Second because I don't think Mr. Mak can be of ANY help, but of course that's only my opinion. Third because if the issue revolves around the problems discussed in this thread (sorry if I have missed more explanations) it is very easy to be solved: if somebody hacked my PC and I know who that is do I need a talisman to stop him ? If that is the whole thing - I am sorry to say - but I find it ridiculous YM

Hello SJ, women and men have the same place and space in Daoism. It is true that by and large men are more present - historically speaking - but that is simply due to the fact that in the old days in Chinese society women were supposed to be taking care of the household (kids etc.) and were therefore less prone to study or move around in society. All schools are equally open to women and men, with the only exception of the Celestial Master in which the leader of the school is and has always been the first (possibly) male descendant of the Zhang family. But of course there are plenty of women in the sect, which however cannot take the leadership role. YM

Sure, as this is true comparing all traditions worldwide why shouldn't it be also true comparing different lines inside Daoism ? This is one of the reasons the main Daoist line now available in China, and one of the most prominent from the Song dynasty onward, is called "quanzhen" which simply means "all-is-true". A Daoist line is created by an individual in history who has studied in one or more Daoist lines, has achieved a mastery in his field who is recognized by his peers and has founded his own curriculum based on his studies and experience. As long as a school matches this description it can be considered an authentical lineage. Koujue and Mijue are fundamental in the trasmission of Daoism. Koujue is an oral (only) instruction which is transmitted hands-on from a master to a disciple. Mijue is basically its written correspective, which is handwritten and/or copied and - just like the koujue - cannot be openly published and must remain inside the 'door'. All Daoist texts - for instance all those in the Daoist canon - and the daoist transmission in general can only be understood by those individuals who have received koujue and mijue, who are the keys to open the door. Results are not necessarily "the same". But they are the results the Founders of that specific line have defined as necessary for progressing in the main path of Daoism and to get closer to the final goal which is - and that is true for ALL daoist schools - becoming "one-with-Dao" (yu dao he zhen). YM

Congratulations ! You have now become immortal YM

It is not actually 'the lineage' that creates reality: our reality is only a projection of our minds. Let me make an example. In daoism there is a lot of work done with the hands and their connection to the microcosm and the macrocosm. I have been involved with various sects and have learned different systems of, for instance, the correspondance of Stars and/or internal organs to different part of the hands. Those are utilized during practice and produce *real* (visible) results ... so one would tend to think that there is a (one) specific CORRECT system. Well, I have learned OPPOSITE systems and practiced (separately) only to find that they BOTH work. Whic is not to say 'everything is the same' or 'everything works' of course, but - when properly taught by somebody who has the right experience - everything works in its specific complete system. So for a Daoist who has learned the proper 'mijue' (oral transmission) he will know that all the 'spirits' he works with are only a projection of his own mind and thus said - for an external viewer - it is hard to believe so and see the depth of respect it is given to ritual. YM

Nicely said and very true, Scotty, but you (we) are wasting out time ... YM

Hilarious, to say the least ... YM

YM

There is nothing to be sorry. Stepping on TOO MANY toes, just like stepping on too many dog poo's, is not bad luck and can only be 'achieved' on purpose. There is a proverb in chinese which sums it all: 人串門子惹是非， 狗串門子挨棒槌。 [if] One goes from door to door, [one will just] stir up troubles [just as when] a dog goes from door to door, it gets beaten with (laundry) clubs N'est pas ? YM PS: and by the way, dog is an auspicious animal in chinese culture and has been bred and lived with humans for thousand of years. When somebody accidentally steps on dog's poo, just like when somebody gets and unexpected lucky something, people will say "交狗屎運" which means something like "you have been lucky enough to step on a dog's poo". Popularly it refers to the fact that it is not that 'easy' to step on a poo so that person is 'special' or has a 'special day' - the same applies to various european countries.

Funnily enough, I had not seen this thread for the same reason until by chance it was bumped up ... YM

Everybody dance DOG FU fighting .... YM

Do Jehowa's witnesses have a problem with dog crap too ? If I was running the forum, BTW, I would have banned him already. YM