YMWong

Darin, given that Daoism is chinese, although of course not exclusive to the chinese, you have to first of all define what is "a daoist" i.e. what is the correspondent term in chinese. "Daoist" is a term invented in the west, therefore in that respect it can mean everything and/or nothing at the same time. YM

Hello all, as there seems to be a lot of interest these days regarding Master Wang Liping I have just uploaded a brief intro to his last visit in Hainan on 2007. For your viewing pleasure YM

No, it was passed to me by a friend in the Mainland. There is a full DVD of the meeting and this is its intro YM

Long time no see, my friend ! I visit here every now and then and I am glad to see you back, OCR. YM

Chuang Tzu's wife died. When Hui Tzu went to convey his condolences, he found Chuang Tzu sitting with his legs sprawled out, pounding on a tub and singing. "You lived with her, she brought up your children and grew old," said Hui Tzu. "It should be enough simply not to weep at her death. But pounding on a tub and singing - this is going too far, isn't it?" Chuang Tzu said, "You're wrong. When she first died, do you think I didn't grieve like anyone else? But I looked back to her beginning and the time before she was born. Not only the time before she was born, but the time before she had a body. Not only the time before she had a body, but the time before she had a spirit. In the midst of the jumble of wonder and mystery a change took place and she had a spirit. Another change and she had a body. Another change and she was born. Now there's been another change and she's dead. It's just like the progression of the four seasons, spring, summer, fall, winter. "Now she's going to lie down peacefully in a vast room. If I were to follow after her bawling and sobbing, it would show that I don't understand anything about fate. So I stopped." YM

This is a well-performed one YM

While the first text 悟真篇 is about one thousand years old, being from late Song, the following two texts have been written much later than that. 伍柳仙踪 is a compendium of Ming (~1600) and Qing texts published in the late Qing. 樂育堂語錄 is also a Qing dynasty work. Moreover, the 悟真篇 has been translated various times in english and as early as the late 30ies by Davis and Chao. YM

Anyone with a good scientific background here can confirm if this is *science* ? http://www.turtlezen.com/russiandnadiscoveries.html Thanks YM

Dear TM, the sentence is a popular one, as I said, so I cannot exclude it was used to convey your meaning about Chinese Med vs. Western Med. Any student of modern chinese history, however, would tell you that it was pronounced by Deng Xiaoping in 1962 at a meeting for the resourgence of agriculture. Then ANY chinese person would explain that he used it again, and from THERE it became popular, in his last trip to Shenzhen and Zhuhai in 1992, where he went to see the results of his openings. I can't remember the 1962 occurence as I wasn't born yet but I recall vividly his 1992 speech. I am sure if you browse the web you'll find plenty of references. YM EDIT "But then Deng, a thoroughgoing pragmatist, has never been much for labels. His most celebrated saying is a homely metaphor to the effect that it does not matter whether a cat is black or white so long as it catches mice. " http://www.time.com/time/subscriber/person...ories/1985.html

This quote is from Deng Xiaoping and not Mao Zedong, and it was not related to Chinese Medicine AFAIK but about the early debate on "capitalism or socialism". The "black cat, white cat" is a popular story in Sichuan and has been used by many public people in China but has become prominent because of Deng. YM

The goal in Daoism, if one really wants to list one, is *becoming One with Dao* (yu Dao he zhen). The Daoist, in her ritual and meditation, reverse time and goes from the *ten thousand beings* (wan wu) back to the Beginning of things i.e. nothingness/emptiness. Only when one's body is empty can Dao come to dwell inside. YM

The fact that Daoism takes roots in various proto-religions of antiquity has nothing to do with Maoshan being shamanic. It would be like saying that since my grandfather was tall that would make me tall by default. Daoism re-organized and reformed much of the past knowledge and rejected some of the earlier practices during its history. Maoshan is derived and stricly connected to mainstream Zhengyi and is totally unrelated to ANY shamanistic practice, which is in fact rejected by mainstream Daoism. Can you refer to any published/public material for your claims ? Thanks YM

For your information, Maoshan Pai and Shamanism are not only unrelated but cannot possibly go along together. A Maoshan daoist is an orthodox lineal master who would see the shaman as an un-orthodox "red-head" popular magician YM

Well, I can only speak for what I know and what I see. Always, like everybody else. So *there is not* stands of course for 'not that I know', it could not be otherwise. Again, one must read these 'origins' in their actual perspective. In chinese, for instance, we say *ten thousand* to mean "a lot". There is basically NO actual transmission coming from Kunlun because the mountain is only a symbol: father/mother of all mountains, connected to Xiwangmu etc. Those are all pretty back on time. Moreover, daoist terminology is intended for initiates. Kunlun, in this respect, is usually referred as the head, the *niwan* palace ... it is inside and not outside. All IMHO, if that was not clear YM

This is what she says and her words have the same authority of Max or anybody else. Again until she can come up with hard evidence (i.e. something older than her saying), in my opinion of course, the Kunlun Pai name comes from Jin Yong's martial novel - which came well before Max or YMJ. http://wuxiapedia.com/novels/jin_yong/heav...n_slaying_sabre By the way, just like with Taiwan Liu's made up (name) Kunlun, I don't think what the late YMJ did had any logical similarity with Max's, is it not ? Everything is always possible, of course, but certain things are more possible than others I guess YM

Let's put it this way then: in 30 years of dwelving in Daoist Studies in China I have never heard or read of any Kunlun School. And, yes, there are lists of Daoist Schools thou of course they can hardly been called "complete" as they were written by *people* who hardly knew it all. If BKF knows of a Kunlun school in China, apart from the Taiwanese line as I said, I'd be most interested to hear more info about that. 'Kunlun' the name is of course everywhere in China/Daoism but that's a different issue. YM I'd be happy to see evidence of this, thanks YM

Pietro, this mean BKF most probably reads this board as there is no mention of a 'kunlun' school anywhere in Daoism. The term was first utilized by some early 'wuxia' (martial novels) writers and later employed by the late Liu Beizhong (Pei Chung) in Taiwan. His school, which had quite a few following and is still somehow popular there, practices a mix of martial arts and meditation derived from different traditions in China. Nothing to do, at least for as much as I read here, with what this guy Max does. It is however quite interesting to see what kind of interest and following can people like this Max or Verdesi can have in the west. To each their own, I guess. YM

YM

For those interested I have scanned and uploaded the translation to Chen Yinxi's Shuigong text here: YM

Having read through this forum for a few days I feel it really is a mirror of the modern world: everyone is looking for POWER ! Be that money, *supernatural* abilities or the power to control others: these are all very un-daoist goals in one's life. Daoism has always been a very *broad* path which, throughout history, has attracted people of various walks of life. Similarly to small rivulets flowing into the big river of Dao, mainstream Daoism has always held an inclusive attitude while however working to *correct* what was considered un-orthodox within those schools. So from the very beginning of "institutional" Daoism ~2000 years ago there has been an orthodox apophatic Way which, following the teaching of Lao/Zhuang, has been looking at emptiness as a goal. Expelling all spirits, including those in one's own body, and burn them to be able to become *One-with-Dao*. The other Way, as for instance most Shenxiao-like orders, are kataphatic in nature and look at *filling* (with power) their body and/or utilizing their body as *medium*. Many of these orders has been 'rectified' by the work of eminent Daoists like Bai Yuchan mainly with the Song, but a lot of their adherents did not accept the new *rules* and continued their practices. These kind of Daoism is still quite popular in China, especially in the central/southern areas, and many of those sought after by people on this board can be ascribed to these lines (at best). From a (orthodox) daoist point of view, most of these practitioners/masters are considered low level thus not having access to high-grade Registers and the spirits/ghosts they command are in the lower spheres. Most of their practices, from meditation to ritual, is far away from the perfection of actual Daoist ritual. It is true that "simila cum similibus agunt". People looking for powers pay lots of money to study with masters who like to show their powers. Sadly enough, this is all quite far away from the Daoist Path. YM

Nieh Ch'ueh asked Wang Ni, "Do you know what all things agree in calling right?" "How would I know that?" said Wang Ni. "Do you know that you don't know it?" "How would I know that?" "Then do things know nothing?" "How would I know that? However, suppose I try saying something. What way do I have of knowing that if I say I know something I don't really not know it? Or what way do I have of knowing that if I say I don't know something I don't really in fact know it? Now let me ask you some questions. If a man sleeps in a damp place, his back aches and he ends up half paralyzed, but is this true of a loach? If he lives in a tree, he is terrified and shakes with fright, but is this true of a monkey? Of these three creatures, then, which one knows the proper place to live? Men eat the flesh of grass-fed and grain-fed animals, deer eat grass, centipedes find snakes tasty, and hawks and falcons relish mice. Of these four, which knows how food ought to taste? Monkeys pair with monkeys, deer go out with deer, and fish play around with fish. Men claim that Mao-ch'iang and Lady Li were beautiful, but if fish saw them they would dive to the bottom of the stream, if birds saw them they would fly away, and if deer saw them they would break into a run. Of these four, which knows how to fix the standard of beauty for the world? The way I see it, the rules of benevolence and righteousness and the paths of right and wrong are all hopelessly snarled and jumbled. How could I know anything about such discriminations?" Nieh Ch'ueh said, "If you don't know what is profitable or harmful, then does the Perfect Man likewise know nothing of such things?" Wang Ni replied, "The Perfect Man is godlike. Though the great swamps blaze, they cannot burn him; though the great rivers freeze, they cannot chill him; though swift lightning splits the hills and howling gales shake the sea, they cannot frighten him. A man like this rides the clouds and mist, straddles the sun and moon, and wanders beyond the four seas. Even life and death have no effect on him, much less the rules of profit and loss!"

I have opinions which I may or may not voice out. I form my own opinions on practice and study, if you think what I said is wrong I am eager to hear yours. Thanks YM PS: and by the way, in case you wonder ... no, I don't levitate, set paper on fire, pass through wall or disappear at will - so hopefully the discussion is not about me