YMWong

Not having personal experience I unfortunately have no way to answer your question in details, but *I think* it is not like meditation - just nothing (no dream). Practice/inner work *should* come before that attainment. I seem to recall that Chen Yinxi manual of "shuigong" had been translated in one early issue of the (now defunct) 'Taoist Resources' magazine. Check out the Society for the Study of Chinese Religions website, I think some of the old issues might still be available. YM

Yes, it is absence of dreams and different from not remembering dreams. I have no idea about the tibetan thing, my only interest is Daoism, and as a general rule I tend to avoid making comparison with other traditions because this usually results in the impression (only) of *having understood*. YM

It is actual no dreams. In the Daoist view normal dreaming is generated by the hun/po spirits who roam around at night without control, so the first step is to put the spirits under control. Daoists have created a number of practices to address this specific issue. Those most common are ascribed to Chen Yinxi (Tunan) and are known also outside of the daoist entourage under the name 'shuigong' (sleeping practice). Sleeping (laying) is one of the main four standard practices of that are: laying, standing, sitting, moving. Sleeping/dreaming in daoist history has been also often emplyed as a tool of learning, the famous "Golden Millet Dream" comes to mind together with Zhuangzi's butterfly: "Once Chuang Chou dreamt he was a butterfly, a butterfly flitting and fluttering around, happy with himself and doing as he pleased. He didn't know he was Chuang Chou. Suddenly he woke up and there he was, solid and unmistakable Chuang Chou. But he didn't know if he was Chuang Chou who had dreamt he was a butterfly, or a butterfly dreaming he was Chuang Chou. Between Chuang Chou and a butterfly there must be some distinction! This is called the Transformation of Things." YM

Patrick, we do practice lucid dreams but they are only part of the process. The goal is not to achieve lucid dreams. The goal is to obtain lucid dreams of which we have full control AND YET be able to show no attachement and let it *play* as a standard dream. Later, a 'no dream' phase will happen. Finally somebody whose name ("neidan practictioner") and words go hand-in-hand Thanks ! YM

Good luck guys, you need it YM EDIT: in case somebody wants to know what ACTUALLY means to be a Daoist, in contrast to reading the likes of the Wandering "Daoist" Trilogy, I'd suggest to start with books like: THE TEACHINGS AND PRACTICES OF THE EARLY QUANZHEN TAOIST MASTERS Stephen Eskildsen Albany: State University of New York Press, 2004

Not sure I'm following you Are you saying that just like legs are meant for walking hands are meant for burning newspapers ? YM

Simply watch the FULL video online, than open "Temporary Internet Files" folder in your PC and arrange the files in there by size or date: this video should be the first on top. Copy it somewhere else and rename it to .flv file, then read it with any of the various free FLV Players. There is not much to listen, only "move your hand here and there" blabla. YM

No, only disciples of both YM

The is the actual full set Xingshenzhuang http://www.56.com/u17/v_MTU3MjUzNDI.html You can see more related videos here http://so.56.com/index?key=%D6%C7%C4%DC%C6...or&sortby=3 YM

He was invited by the BTA a number of times, yes, I seem to recall. I think he is still out there teaching with a lesser following, but I haven't heard about him in a while. Most of these 'daoists' have all similar background and tell similar stories. YM

Sean, I have personally spoken with a couple of Wang's disciples. Since none of them was italian I guess this information is incorrect. WRT M Saso, I don't know M Winn, may I ask on what you base your opinion "the guy has nothing" ? TIA YM

Hello Styrofoamdog, I also just got here a couple of days ago but I don't see *anger* but (more or less) animated discussions. I deeply believe that everyone is entitled to his own opinions and that - usually - those don't change because "somebody on the web said different". It is however, in my opinion, the actual scope of a tool like the web that everybody's opinion is told and heard. When somebody then stumble upon such discussion he/she will have the tools and will see more than simply one side of the coins ... and might be able to make up his/her mind. Needless to say, respect for the persons should always be present but opinions - and possibly facts as objective as possible - shall be presented for the sake of everybody's understanding. A few years ago there was another "daoist case" which made a huge news: not sure how many remember Charles Belyea (aka Liu Ming). Another of these guys who created a following based on their power to impress others and on many stories. These stories are always about the same: Belyea had been "many years in Taiwan" and studied with "a daoist in the mountains" who had transmitted "Orthodox Daoism" to him as only successors bla bla bla. "Liu Ming" even was passed down secret manuscripts and ordination manuals from as early as the Han dynasty that - however - were just too precious to be handled and shown and he was keeping them in a safe-box of a bank. His case was a bit special because he climbed the ladder of fame fast since - by chance - Academia had organized a Conference of Daoist Studies in which, for the first time, pratictioners would gather with scholars in a mutual exchange. To make a story short, at the Conference Prof. Schipper went to his knees and in a show worth of Broadway saying that Belyea could have been his Master. For those who know Schipper that would mean a different thing than for most, but the case generated further promotion for the "Orthodox Daoist". Later, exactly because of exchanges like those you are reading here, the truth came to light and Belyea (who has been in Taiwan very briefly and was selling a pout-pourri of things for "Orthodox Daoism") lost most of his following. People like these have of course a place in this society and they actually provide a service for those that need it. It is therefore right IMHO that they ask to be paid, and if the amount is OK with their students just fine. The only issue that I see is when they claim things that are not true and cannot back-up with hard evidence. That's trickery. YM

Well, I for one deeply trust that Sean honestly believes what he *saw* and that his report is - in that respect - absolutely accurate. We all, however, have the tendency to *see* only what we *want* to see, hear what we want to hear ... guess you get my point. So, for the time being, I think that for all those of us who have not attended the seminar the pictures are a better mirror of what *might* have happened. YM

It's interesting however how the article shows the trick of the "sweet water" making use of an actual hidden-camera video. The master asks the student to buy a bottle and opens it, to show that it is normal water He then puts the cap on the table behing him to pour a cup of water to the student so that his assistant has the time to change the cup with another containing the sweet substance then he take the (new) cup and close it back, to start "issuing qi" to it so the water can become sweet: see how she handles the bottle HORIZONTALLY ? It is intersting to note that these three persons - 'Jiang', Wang Liping and the Magus of Java - all have totally different backgrounds that are completely unrelated (Shaolin Qigong, Longmen" and "Mopai") but they are all utilized under the "lei shan dao" brand --- which of course is DV's brand and is not found anywhere else. YM

Since you mentioned that the requirement "clean hands are a must" was something that had direct connection with the Daoists ("used by their creators") I was expecting a reference to a Scripture, an original source, an oral transmission from a reputable lineage or at least a similar reference translated by a known scholar. Your quoting Blofeld and suggesting me to look out for some "chinese friends" (not mainlanders who are brainwashed) simply shows we have a different background and it's hard to communicate. Thanks in any case YM

With all due respect to you and Blofeld, I see we have different opinions about what makes a 'concrete reference' in Daoism and daoist studies. No problem of course, to each their own Best YM

Would you be so kind as to provide concrete reference to the relationship between "clean hands are a must" and "exactly the way they were used by their creators" as I am not aware of any, thou of course I may be wrong YM

Master Tung-kuo asked Chuang Tzu, "This thing called the Way-where does it exist?" Chuang Tzu said, "There's no place it doesn't exist." "Come," said Master Tung-kuo, "you must be more specific!" "It is in the ant." "As low a thing as that?" "It is in the panic grass." "But that's lower still!" "It is in the tiles and shards." "How can it be so low?" "It is in the piss and shit." YM

Hello from HK/China ! YM

Thanks for the warm welcome ! YM

Yes, that's Wang Here's a pic of him practicing in the '80ies YM

Wang is well known in China and he is in good terms with the Daoist Association i.e. with the goverment. After the 'qigong' turmoil generated by FLG and others the situation seems to be coming back to normal here, and Wang like others is starting to teach more openly. He was last year on august at a Daoist Forum in Hainan where he taught many courses. Last I spoke to his group they were based in Dalian YM

The Three Treasures take different shape on the path of a Daoist. At the beginning they are those from Laozi's Chapter 67: I have three treasures that I hold and cherish. The first is compassion, The second is frugality, The third is not daring to put myself ahead of everybody. Having compassion, I can be brave. Having frugality, I can be generous. Not daring to put myself ahead of everybody I can take the time to perfect my abilities. Now if I am brave without compassion Generous without frugality, or Go to the fore without putting my own concerns last, I might as well be dead. If you wage war with compassion you will win. If you protect yourself with compassion you will be impervious. Heaven will take care of you, Protecting you with compassion. [Muller] Further down in the path they are: -Dao (Tao) -Jing (the scriptures) -Shi (the teacher) Only later they can be jing/qi/shen. YM