NoOne

So, after the "Magus of Java" turned more into an anime than genuine neikung, I decided to look into Damo Mitchell for getting some beginner exercises/foundation work for neidan/gong/kung. Seems he is liked here on the forums. I'm going through his "Comprehensive Guide to Nei Gong" book. There is a lot of theory; perhaps too much theory. Apart from being long-winded, I had hoped that all that theory was a good sign; unfortunately, I've come to a bit of a snag. I am at chapter 4: preparing the body. Here he speaks of how crucial the correct foundations are for making any progression in neigong: And of those important foundations is "Wuji": So, we can see he really stresses this Wuji posture as very important foundational work. The second part of getting down Wuji posture, after the feet, is getting the knees right. It would seem the center of gravity is crucial for working the lower Dan tian. And Damo says the key is to bend the knees to lower the center of gravity to the Dan tian, so it may be worked properly. Unless I'm missing something here, that isn't how center of gravity works. The center of gravity is already in the lower abdomen when standing upright. Bending the knees only lowers it further. A simple Google search can show anyone this: https://www.google.com/search?q=center+of+gravity+upright&rlz=1C1CHBF_enCA740CA740&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiLhtXBi5L8AhVHAjQIHTcqD6gQ_AUoAXoECAEQAw&biw=1745&bih=890&dpr=1.1 Here is a screenshot from the page from Damo's book I am referring to: https://ibb.co/pf1dBMR To write a book as in-depth as Damo's is not so easy; he is clearly a bright guy. But this kind of mistake in part of what is apparently the most important and fundamental aspect of Nei Gong, from which all other progress will derive from, is quite the blunder. Technically, if we follow Damo's advice we will be shooting our center of gravity away from the lower Dan tian. So, it is now hard for me to know if the rest of the book is worth pursuing/accurate. As neigong protocol seems to be very dependent on meticulous following of procedure, if I am to follow Damo's examples here technically it would seem my entire foundation will be wrong, and as Damo puts it, I won't be able to progress without getting the foundation correct. I don't want to come off as nit-picky, but again, as Damo states, this beginning standing posture seems to be very important to get right: What are others thoughts on this?

I had considered this. But the issue is Damo is the type of writer to clarify and explain everything in multiple ways, often in too much details actually. Sometimes he'll even explain a concept and say something like "for all intents and purposes, concept 'x' = explanation 'y'. But technically, concept 'x' actually means 'z' (some very long technical explanation), but really all you need to know is 'y'; knowing 'z' is actually detrimental and complicated, though, in the interest of being thorough I have included it. With this kind of writer, it is very odd that he did not specify the "center of gravity" doesn't actually mean the center of gravity; especially when he seems to be using it as such, given the context and photos/diagrams. Damo is also a Westerner right, and his audience is too. Well, I suppose all that matters is whether it works or not. If it's proper neigong, that's really all I care about. Can any of those smarter ways be had without a teacher? I'm open to suggestions for learning the basics.

This is sure to go well considering I'm journeying into a group of Daoist enthusiasts and probably questioning the fundamentals of the belief system itself I've been at this for about 1.5 days, but these are my thoughts so far as someone just coming into this; although I saw the John Chan/Mo Pai footage several years ago, I became more interested this time around when I saw it again 2 days ago. I can actually believe that it might be possible to cultivate and project chi as we see in his video. For example: We have the participation/observation effect in quantum mechanics We have scientists like Dean Radin that, assuming the studies are completely genuine, have shown beyond a statistical doubt that intention can skew randomness (such as influencing a random number generator) The group from metaportal seem to have the Guinness world record for most people to successfully learn telekinesis The construction of the pyramids and gobelki tepe, according to the likes of Graham Hancock, could suggest an alternative, lateral science (e.g. telekinesis, bio-energy, etc) from the one we find ourselves in today (modern physics) Clandestine US/Russia official Gov groups using telepaths aka remote viewing for information gathering Propaganda (false information, information diversion, information suppression) currently working very well to shape general public opinion on any matter despite being in the information age Science being subject to corruption the same as anything else is (e.g. as was seen in spades in the past couple years) We also probably really know nothing about who we are and what are purpose here is Stuff like this makes one open to the possibility of entertaining that there is more than we currently have been told/understand. I notice in this industry, for what is supposed to be a humble transcendental practice, is full of marketers. A mix of natives and Westerners charging high prices for courses, promising their method holds the secrets or a better way to progress than another. It feels a lot like the PUA (pick up artist/dating) industry -- an industry full of grandiose claims and reputations that melt away when actually meeting that industries equivalent of their masters. Currently, I am reading "Magus of Java"; it's a fun read. Assuming this phenomena of chi/yang-yin cultivation and projection is real, it's clear this book does a disservice to the entire subject. Either John Chang or Kosta (or both) are spinning tales here. The book is full of clichés, feeling like the beginning of the karate kid. Not that clichés mean it can't be true, however. Though John Chang's master Liao Sifu is basically a god. Even if Kosta's goal wasn't to convince anyone with this book, by taking a subject already extremely controversial and hard to believe, and to then fabricate stories to sell more books undermines the credibility of the entire subject itself (especially considering he was a student of the most believable and skilled practitioner of Neidang/gong, according to feats on camera that we have). I can understand the Chinese myth style of storytelling from natives of Indonesia/China/The East, but this Kosta guy is a western academic and former Engineer -- he should know better. So, either the master himself is lying or its Kosta; in Kosta's case, considering the wise and masterful John allowed Kosta to train under him, which surely involved character/karma judgement to be taken on as a student, it speaks poorly of John as well. As I said, it undermines the validity of the whole subject/industry. On a related note, as I look through these forums its clear that people advocate seeing a teacher; that one cannot learn proper neidan/gong from books alone. First, I will say this seems like a good financial model for teachers. Second, if we go back to the "Magus of Java" book, Mo Pai system, there are 72 mentioned levels. It is made clear the difference between level 0 (the uninitiated) and even level 1 represents a huge disparity. And level 1 to 4 further still. As John Chang, a genius of genetics and skill, was apparently level 4, being at level 72, as also clearly stated, would represent a massive difference in power/skill. Even if the book is heavily exaggerated, I'm sure the difference is still massive between level 0-1, 1-4, and 4-72. If chi/yin-yang is indeed intrinsic to every human (to a greater or lesser extent), it seems to me there should be a lot of people that can achieve level 1, 2, 3 or equivalent spontaneously from simply meditating for many years. For example, level 1-4 is beginner territory relative to level 72; in virtually any subject of human endeavor, one can fairly easily become a beginner (e.g. assuming physics has 72 levels, it would not be really hard to reach level 2 for anyone with a book or DVD, and not requiring in person guidance). Yet the claims are that for some reason despite these forces being available to every human, the process requires such meticulous implementation that one cannot do it without in-person guidance. And yet, despite this, there are several different methods/schools/styles of neidan/gong to get you there besides Mo Pai (suggesting there are overlapping fundamentals). As I see it, there is only one way to truly be in a meditative state: to quiet the inner chatter long enough to enter the void state (the state of no perception). And there can only be so many ways to manipulate the breath/chi (and surely it can be explained ((for the most part)) in a book). And, there are only so many ways one can visualize the flow of chi/yin-yang internally in the body; especially considering everyone will visualize a process slightly differently, this suggests to me that intention is probably the primary mechanism here (the driving force really behind the visualization aspect of the practice). All of this suggests to me that it shouldn't be so damn hard to learn. If the feats of John Chang are real, they should be able to be taught from a book. Otherwise, it seems to me that something is fishy here, and I'm thinking we might just have concepts and stories that are playing to our imaginations as well as offering an evergreen financial niche for the teachers. As I said at the beginning, I have 1.5 days of experience in neidan/gong but not in the greater subject (parapsychological/paranormal phenomena at large). This makes me less attached to it and able to see the flaws, but can also make me ignorant. I would welcome anyone who can refute my rationale here and elucidate me on what I might be missing. I am interested in neidan/gong for health reasons, meaning, and purpose, and would very much like there to be more benefits and feats to it beyond those simply achieved from a disciplined mind and a general meditative practice.

I would say it would depend on their intentions and how they conduct themselves. A teacher in a cowboy hat with a cowboy fascination could be a neigong master; that's just his lateral interest/quirk. But say a teacher that spends significant amounts of energy into acquiring wealth for the purposes of acquiring wealth itself; he does so to prop himself up (ego) and/or because he sees a lot value in money itself. This is not a wise person. A certain amount of money to survive is one thing, to be modestly wealthy from good work is one thing, but the previous is a flaw in their values. I could imagine a wise man saying something like: For what is money but paper printed out of thin air, backed by nothing, and the means for the corrupt; to seek money in this way is to serve mammon not the spirit; for what is money to one whose spirit is already rich. There is a reason why people with very high IQs tend to not be very wealthy. There is a reason why Jesus was poor and the Buddha gave up riches to seek meaning. If the teacher seems to be skewed towards profit-driven marketer more so or equal to that of teacher, then I would be very cautious.

Is it not that being a master of Daoist arts is supposed to be associated with wisdom and some degree of altruism as a result of spiritual growth? When the world is falling to pieces by corruption and bad actors, wouldn't spreading the word about practices that encourage the growth of the spirit actually help humanity? This is one of the best times in history for such a cause. People are mentioning money. I think it's fine to accept money to teach. The problem is when the teacher becomes equal parts marketer and teacher, that's when it starts to stink. Any person of sufficient "spiritual quality" (or one who is wise) will realize that chasing money isn't something to be associated with happiness or real value. As such, when a teacher acts in this way, it immediately undermines his credibility. Unless, of course, from what I read in "Magus of Java" (a book that loses more credibility as I turn each page) is true, that the techniques of Neidan/gong/kung work whether you're a good person or not; that it has nothing to do with the morals/ethics of the individual. I think on the public, ground level this industry is flooded with charlatans/cons. And even of the more skilled teachers, often it seems their "spiritual principles" start to crumble under the weight of their materialistic ones (i.e. greed/mammon). For those that are this type of greedy marketer, unless they are raising all this money directly to set up some kind of charity, I would not follow them, and I cannot believe they are operating on a "higher spiritual level" (again unless proper implementation of the techniques are all that matter, whether the practitioner is morally good or not). Within closed (real) temples, what keeps the true masters from spreading it? Ethnic pride, old doctrines, ego? Or perhaps it's all embellished; with the beneficial effects and feats amounting to the same (which I'm sure can be quite substantial, but the same nonetheless) as other similar but publicly, readily available forms (e.g. YouTube Qi gong) of these disciplines. Perhaps it's all hokum, and they are nothing but a kind of glorified monk/spiritualist clinging to the dying arts from a forgotten era where this stuff was more relevant and believable. Or perhaps it is real, too dangerous, and money means nothing to them. My list from the OP was to show that we have not defined the limits of what is possible, and mainstream science certainly doesn't have the final say on this. So, I am open to this phenomena. But it seems like if I don't learn some Mandarin and go on a goose hunt through parts of Asia or fork over thousands of dollar for a teacher, I have little chance of getting anywhere from books or anything else (even if they're from those very same teachers). While technology makes the spreading of information more readily available and in different formats, the problem is that control of these technologies are concentrated in the hands of a few. And that technology is to be used against the betterment of mankind.

Read several threads so figured I would join.

Honestly, both would be great. I certainly would like the practices.

Sure, I would like to be directed to someone who can show me first hand. How might I get in touch with them?

Like everyone else I was interested after seeing John Chang's feats in the documentary. I found the Mo Pai training manual. I did a search on these forums but didn't seem to find anything related to this book specifically. It was apparently compiled by Jeff McDuffie. 72 pages. Parts are written in Indonesian. Below is the overview of the book.

Right, I am hoping for something to build competency in neidan/gong, not expertise. Unless you're extremely skilled, it would be very difficult without a teacher. But it seems that people here are suggesting that you pretty much cannot get anywhere without a teacher. So let me ask this way: What might you recommend to achieve competency in neidan/gong in terms of books and/or readily available video?

You could acquire some level of competency with video courses for violin, surely. For example, I learned to play the piano from an app and according to someone who was classically trained, I made great progress for the time I had been playing, and was an absolute beginner prior. Conversely, with neidan/gong it seems that video courses amount to nothing practically, based on what I'm seeing here.

I think you could from a video.

What will get you somewhere in terms of practice?

I figured as much given it was a hacked together pdf. Teachers are a bit too pricey considering I'm just getting my feet wet, and am still not sure if this kind of chi projection/phenomena is real. What about books? Or DVDs? Are there any good ones for learning? Going through the forums, the ones I saw mentioned often were: Yang Jwing Ming - Root of Chinese Qigong Wang Mu Fabrizio - Foundations of Inner Alchemy & The way of the Golden Elixir & The Seal of Unity Damo Mitchell - A Comprehensive Guide & White Moon Since chi is intrinsic to every person, and there are many schools to achieve the same results, I would think there should be basic fundamentals that one can learn even from books.

I was interested in getting his materials. Though I noticed his online course was $75 in 2020 is now $250, and his book was $32 and is now $55.