iinatti

sure to keep one real don’t slip when walking on ice reality hurts

Thanks! I find this an interesting thing to think about, but as Steve says, perhaps spontaneity is the byproduct of practice, not necessarily the objective. This conversation did elicit an interesting thought in me, however. An intention is just a thought--a concept about something you might do in the future. It is no different than any other thought that might arise in consciousness. In my own practice, I am working on avoiding attachments to things, including such thoughts. This is a challenge, and until thinking through this conversation, I have yet to understand why. Concepts like prajnaparamita and wu wei are a paradox because one cannot eliminate attachments phenomenon by attaching to a phenomenon. One cannot commit to inaction, without acting. One cannot eliminate thoughts by thinking. One cannot intend to act without intentions. These are infinite loop statements, the type that Gödel devised. There is a subtle workaround, however. If analyzing such an unsolvable statement in a model, they would be avoided altogether by running an iteration and finding a limit. A similar concept can also be applied in practice. One cannot eliminate thoughts by thinking, although one can iteratively reduce or slow thoughts by thinking. One can intend to act less on intentions. One can commit to inaction by acting less. One can reduce attachment to phenomenon while still attaching to the phenomenon of doing so. Might seem like a small distinction, but its a slight change in thinking for me. Thus, if practicing a meditation and my thoughts are running wild, I do not say to myself "stop thinking," I say to myself "slow down your thinking" That way I can gradually get infinitely close a non thinking state without forcing myself into a paradox. So, one cannot intend to act spontaneously. One can only intend to be more spontaneous and gradually the spontaneity will take over.

What is an "intention" then anyway? Is the goal of spontaneity to eliminate all intentions? i.e. I intend to have no intentions.

100% agreed. Not suggesting someone should act in such a way nor that acting in such a way is consistent with Zhuangzi. Apologies if it came off that way. I was responding to your initial point that one act based "natural instinct." That seems correct to me, although does not seem like everyone's natural instincts are so pure. If acting spontaneously leads to undesirable outcomes due to a non-virtuous natural instinct, however, you will quickly see the need to change yourself and become a better person. Acting spontaneously and exposing these things about yourself, however mundane, will therefore help you to become a more virtuous person who does act consistent with the philosophy of Zhuangzi. This may be incorrect, but it was at least the somewhat convoluted thought that I had after reading your initial post although not meaning too much by it. Very much appreciated the insight.

What if it was intentional harm? Say someone parks their car too closely to mine. If my natural instinct is to key their car, that would reveal something about my nature. Alternatively, if I brush it off and move my car, that would reveal something else. If one's nature is kind and compassionate that will be borne out by their spontaneous action. If they are not kind and compassionate, for example, they might let their neighbors house burn to the ground... or worse yet, maybe they started the fire to begin with. Thinking that maybe acting spontaneously is a pathway to cultivating one's authentic nature... Once the mask is removed, one will quickly see what type of person they really are, for better or worse.

Thanks for these. My thinking is that making plans and goals is a necessary thing--a plan or goal can be made with the same spontaneity as any action. Although, one ought not be attached to the path to achieve the goal, nor fret the details on how you might get there, if at all. Just let the nature take its course. I wake up one morning and decide to go hiking in the backcountry. I get my stuff ready and head out the door. I am not wandering aimlessly: there is a particular lake I am hoping to reach. I have a route planned and provisions, although I don't know all of the obstacles I might encounter on my path. Its spring and I come to a stream I must cross. The water is much higher and too turbulent to cross safely. I do not stick to my planned crossing point. I'd surely be washed away. I traverse the stream, find a narrow point and use a fallen log to cross. I continue on my journey. What if your natural instinct is to do something harmful? Acting spontaneously will quickly reveal your true nature.

Hard being a vegetarian without support from your partner / friends. Having to make two meals every dinner can be a source of friction. Going out is equally hard. Business lunches can also be awkward.

Hi could I change my name to "iinatti" (all lower case). I enjoyed reading the Glass Bead Game, but realized I am neither a "Magister", nor a "Ludi". Did not want to give the wrong impression : ) Thanks!

Edited that part out... meant as a joke : ) . This is an interesting question, though--whether/how he was influenced by eastern thought. Prob not for this thread. Not studied Blake much before, though quickly becoming an enthusiast

Could not help posting this painting of Newton by William Blake, who had similar writings about the illusory nature of physics (or Maya as @Invisible Acropolis cooly pointed out). Something about it says it all to me. Still honing my Blake, but here is one quote I found ("Natural" ~ Maya as I understand it, which is not well):

mosaic tiles for brains not good except for making art of the supreme

One might be able to make such judgements of others, but can one make such claims for one's self?

If one were an arhat, would he/she publically declare him/herself to be so, on YouTube or otherwise? Would an arhat ever say to him/herself something such as "I have attained the four fruits and have therefore obtained the status of an arhat? Can one who desires to attain the level of an arhat be one? Would an arhat even know him/herself to be an arhat?

Life is but a breath Tomorrow is yesterday Must breathe out slowly

Purpose of moving meditation is still meditation in my book, otherwise may be better off going to the gym. The "mind" is a tricky word. Most English speaking people would attribute it classical Aristotelian philosophy--i.e. mind/body. Some might think its just your brain. Maybe its consciousness generally. My view is that neither buddhist nor daoist philosophy is meant to cultivate the Aristotle mind, but something more broad and pervasive, which includes the health of the physical body. If I am holding a coffee cup, is it my mind that is conscious of the teetering cup, or my hand. I dont think there is a distinction. My thinking is that many equate the mind to being isolated in the head, and separate from the body, simply because many of our sensory facilities occur there. Our eyes, ears, mouth and nose. Even ones internal dialogue can be viewed as abstraction of the voice, which also occurs at the back of the throat in the head. If I abstract an image of a tree, it occurs in my head, because that is where my eyes are. Other forms of conscious occur elsewhere. I am conscious of being hungry, though I would not say the sensation of hunger occurs in the head. I can make an imagine a pain in my foot, but that abstraction occurs in the foot, not the head. Fundamentally, however, my insight from this question is that one's abstraction of the mind/body, and the complex map that we make of it, with all of the different points and channels, is still an abstraction, which must be transcended if one is to reach something real. Thus, the "mind" that is being cultivated through any practice means something quite different to me, though I am still learning what that is.

is that good or bad? my memories swirl like clouds once gone sky remains

May be true. It makes sense that the practical advice in the daodejing is of greater value to a westerner since a westerner comes from a different culture that does not necessarily reflect that philosophy. How else would a westerner have any exposure to powerful, practical concepts such as the following: Ch 47: ... the sage knows without traveling; He sees without looking; He works without doing. Reminds me... I should be working right now.

Chapter 42 ... Men hate to be “orphaned,” “widowed,” or “worthless,” But this is how kings and lords describe themselves. For one gains by losing And loses by gaining. ... Good things come to those that have it all. Dont form attachment to physical things or personal status. Being content with nothing is key to gaining everything.

the lake fills slowly snow melt keeps it blue in june dreams of swimming there

I read that the blue might be from aquamarine, ie blue beryl (which is sometimes translated as lapis lazuli): "For his second great aspiration, he proclaimed, ‘In the future, when I have attained awakening as a perfect buddha who has manifested unsurpassed and perfect awakening, may my body be like a precious blue beryl gem‍—pure inside and out and radiating a stainless light. May I manifest a broad and tall body that stands firm, is ablaze with glory and splendor, and is adorned with a halo of light so bright that it outshines the sun and moon. May my light allow any beings who are born in the dark spaces between worlds, and those here in the human world who travel to various places during the dark of night, to proceed joyfully, and may they perform virtuous deeds.’" Pretty cool. I also read its one of the seven precious materials. It seems common for the buddhas' bodies to be described as brightly colored, gold, green, etc. depending on their individual characteristics. Blue beryl's purity and purfication effects seems to be one of its defining characteristics, which may be why the medicine buddha's body is described as being like a precious blue beryl gem: "The ones who possess this vast [lotus] sūtra Will have bodies that are completely purified, As pure as if they were made of beryl And will always bring joy to the beings who see them." It seems like the blue color takes its significance from the gemstone, not necessarily the characteristics of the similarly blue hindu dieties. Understanding the historical significance of aquamarine would therefore better answer the question of any relationship to the hindu dieties, rather than comparing the skin color, although hindu probably influenced the very idea that a diety or buddha might have brightly colored skin to begin with. I personally like the idea.

no last laughs for you icy seas farewell seagull longing your return

Hi, just signing up. Nothing much to say but hello.