kakapo

"My question was not "how much is missing" I asked "how much is incorrect. See below:" The video below has some wonderful views of our planets through a telescope. If we were on Mars and filming Earth with a similar telescope, you wouldn't see the trees, the people, you wouldn't understand the culture. The same goes for your question about your arm. There is too much you cannot see and know to say that your perception of it is anything more than a shadow on the wall.

"you seem to be assuming that nothing exists outside the mind" No that is most certainly not my position at all, not even a little bit. You live in a simulated reality created by your brain as a useful fiction to help you navigate your environment. It is exactly like the holodeck in star trek. We hope that this useful fiction accurately simulates reality outside of ourselves, because if it doesn't that's going to create a whole lot of problems.

Colbe, What I am talking about is actually true, I posted a wonderful ted talk about it above, please check it out. People can get diagnosed with Schizophrenia for quoting Edward Snowden or David Grush. Pretty much you have to filter your behavior and your speech in public settings, and even in private to some degree. People who lack the ability to behave normally in public, or filter their speech to normal topics are perceived as being mentally ill. If you are screaming from the rooftops about anything that isn't something people normally encounter you will be diagnosed with some disorder. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rosenhan_experiment The Rosenhan experiment was a famous study in the field of psychiatry, conducted by psychologist David Rosenhan in 1973. The study was designed to test the validity of psychiatric hospitals' ability to correctly diagnose mental illness. The experiment had two parts: Part One: Pseudo-patient Study: Eight "pseudo-patients" (including Rosenhan himself), none of whom had a history of mental illness, were instructed to go to various psychiatric hospitals around the United States. They claimed to be hearing voices that were unclear, but which seemed to utter the words "empty", "hollow", and "thud". These symptoms were chosen because they did not resemble any known symptoms of any mental illness. However, once admitted, the pseudo-patients acted completely normal and reported no more symptoms. Part Two: Judgement of Sanity: After the first experiment, Rosenhan announced to a research and teaching hospital that over the next three months, one or more pseudo-patients would attempt to be admitted into the hospital. The staff were asked to rate every incoming patient on the likelihood that they were a pseudo-patient. Findings: First Part: All eight pseudo-patients were admitted to the hospitals, with seven diagnosed with schizophrenia and one with manic-depressive psychosis. They were all given antipsychotic medications (which they secretly discarded). Even though they acted normally after admission, they were kept in the hospitals for an average of 19 days (ranging from 7 to 52 days), and were all discharged with a diagnosis of their supposed mental illness "in remission". Second Part: The staff at the hospital rated 193 patients. Forty-one were identified as potential pseudo-patients by at least one staff member, and 19 were suspected by at least one psychiatrist. In reality, Rosenhan had sent no pseudo-patients to the hospital. Conclusion: The Rosenhan experiment raised serious questions about the validity of psychiatric diagnoses and the implications of dehumanizing treatment in mental health institutions. It suggested that the diagnostic process in psychiatry was heavily influenced by the context and labels, rather than the patients' actual behavior or experiences. This landmark study played a key role in the movement towards deinstitutionalization and reform of mental health care. Here is a wonderful documentary on the Rosenhan experiment: https://www.dailymotion.com/video/xt041e

https://www.anilseth.com/bio/ I am Professor of Cognitive and Computational Neuroscience at the University of Sussex, where I am also Director of the Sussex Centre for Consciousness Science. I am also Co-Director of the Canadian Institute for Advanced Research (CIFAR) Program on Brain, Mind, and Consciousness, and of the Leverhulme Doctoral Scholarship Programme: From Sensation and Perception to Awareness. I was recently an Engagement Fellow with the Wellcome Trust. I am Editor-in-Chief of Neuroscience of Consciousness (Oxford University Press); I sit on the Editorial Board of Philosophical Transactions of the Royal Society B and on the Advisory Committee for 1907 Research and for Chile’s Congreso Futuro. I was Conference Chair for the 16th Meeting of the Association for the Scientific Study of Consciousness (ASSC16, 2012) and was an ASSC ‘member at large’ from 2014-2022. My research has been supported by the EPSRC (Leadership Fellowship), the European Research Council (ERC, Advanced Investigator Grant), the Wellcome Trust, and the Canadian Institute for Advanced Research (CIFAR). Check out these profiles of me and my research in The Observer, The New Statesman, and Quanta.

Your arm contains so much data. Imagine keeping track of the speed, and trajectory of every electron and subatomic particle in every atom. If we turned every grain of sand on earth into a computer you couldn't do it. I would say your perception at best captures: 0.00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000001% of the data contained in the atoms of your arm.

Daniel, Imagine you are in a tank. You have cameras outside the tank, and a television inside the tank. This let's you drive the tank around and navigate your environment. The output you see on the television screen while it may indeed represent reality outside of the tank, it itself is not that reality. It is a representation of the reality outside. What you see is a representation. What you hear is a representation. What you smell is a representation. What you taste is a representation. What you feel is is a representation. Your eyeballs are biological cameras. The reality you see and experience is occurring inside your skull. The hangup here is that most people assume they are looking out into an external universe, and that is incorrect. They are in fact looking into their own mind. Most people just assume what they see is reality, but it is not. A painting of a pipe not an actual pipe. An experience of a pipe, is not an actual pipe. No matter how real the experience feels.

Pixels of light on a television, are not the same thing the camera is actually looking at. A painting of a pipe is not a pipe. The experience of something, is not that something itself. The experience of something has no reality, at least no more reality than a shadow on a wall.

When you look at your own arm, that is not your arm. You only get to see an experience which occurs inside your mind. The experience of the the thing, is not the thing itself. Just as a painting of a pipe, is not a pipe.

You can connect a camera to a television, and put the camera outside your front door. What you see on the TV may actually be happening outside of your home. The problem becomes when you start confusing what you are seeing on TV for actual reality. In Plato's republic men are chained to the wall and believe the shadows on the wall to be reality. In actual reality almost all humans alive today are looking at the contents of their own minds, and believing what they are seeing is an external reality. It is not external, it is just shadows on the cave wall.

We can dig into this really easy. You look at a television connected to a camera. What you see is pixels of light. Those pixels can be made to represent any thing you point the camera at. It is possible to sit your entire life chained to a couch and believe what you are watching on television is actual reality. It is possible be to chained to a wall and observe shadows on a cave wall and believe those to be actual reality. In fact that is the actual truth for almost 100% of all humans. If you are using a camera and a television to observe reality, you are looking at a representation. A painting of a pipe is also a representation. It does not matter if it is an accurate representation or not. Right now the computer screen you are looking at is not a computer screen at all. It is literally a holographic experience your brain is creating to make sense of your environment. A painting of a pipe is not a pipe.

Suffering alone exists, none who suffer; The deed there is, but no doer thereof; Nirvana is, but no one is seeking it; The Path there is, but none who travel it.

It's not semantics at all.

You are the image of the egg cooking. You are the smell of the egg cooking. You are the sound of the egg cooking. You are the taste of the egg. You are the feeling of the egg. You are the memory of previous eggs. You are the imagination of future eggs. You are the emotion such an experience brings. You are the entire experience itself.

Operating under the assumption an external reality exists, and an object exists outside the skull. We do not actually ever see the object in this diagram, we only ever see the screen in the mind. The hangup becomes that almost 100% of all people believe the screen in the mind is actual reality, and it is not actual reality it is an abstraction or representation of reality. This is an important distinction to make. It is no more reality than shadows on the wall of a cave. Taking 20 dried grams of mushrooms, makes the screen go all crazy, but my assumption would be that the object that exists outside the skull would not be affected by this assuming it exists.

There could be an external reality, that exists outside the skull. I can't say for certain. This could be a quantum computer simulation. I could be a Boltzmann brain. There are too many unknown, unknowns to say with certainty. For purposes of conversation, I will assume that an external reality does exist, but it isn't a position I actually hold or try to defend. The item you have labeled with the question mark may exist, and my hope would be that it does exist, but I cannot say with certainty that it does. The image of the egg in the frying pan you have labeled as observed, is also the observer. It observes itself, you are the image of the egg in the pan, you are the smell of the cooking egg, you are the sound of the sizzle, you are the feeling of warmth from the stove, and you are the taste of the egg. The little man should be removed from the picture.

So the thing you label as observed, isn't actually being observed at all. An image of it is being replicated and displayed inside the brain, and that image inside the brain is what is being observed. Here's where it gets weird. There is no little man, he doesn't exist, and there is no screen or projector it doesn't exist either. The film or movie that is playing is watching itself, and there is no one in the audience to watch it. Yes I understand how absolute bat**** insane that sounds but that is what is actually happening.

If you have to use a camera to look at reality, then you aren't looking at reality but rather an abstraction of it. For purposes of discussion an eyeball is a biological version of a camera. Imagine if I connect a camera to a television, and point it at a tobacco pipe. If I look at the screen and point to the pipe on the screen and ask "what is this?" If you answer "that is a pipe" your answer would be incorrect. The correct answer would be "that is a television, the pixels on the television are emitting light, and the light is creating a pattern which resembles the object the camera connected to it is pointed towards. The television can only ever display a representation of something, but that representation can only ever be an abstraction of something else, and never the actual thing being displayed. A painting of a pipe is not a pipe, and a holographic experience of reality is not reality. The confusion here happens when you don't understand you are looking at a television. In allegory of the cave the men chained to the wall know of no other reality besides the shadows on the wall, and to them that is all there is. What I am saying is the computer monitor you are reading these words on, exists only inside your mind as energy and information in your neural networks it has no reality to it, at least no more than shadows on a cave wall, or a painting of a pipe is real pipe. On a television you see pixels of light, in your mind you see the energy and information exchanged between neurons. Where the observer = the observed fits into all this is that you are the energy and information inside the neural networks, and it is set up so you observe the contents of your own awareness. By bad analogy your little man is sitting on a couch watching a TV inside your brain. Except there is no little man or tv, just energy and information flowing between synapses. I Am a Strange Loop" by cognitive scientist Douglas Hofstadter is a 2007 book that delves into consciousness, self-awareness, and the development of the self using the idea of a "strange loop." This loop is a self-referential feedback mechanism in the brain that generates self-awareness and subjective experiences. In essence, Hofstadter proposes that strange loops are hierarchical structures incorporating self-reference and feedback, which give rise to self-awareness by creating an abstract "I" that observes and examines itself.

"It doesn't have anything to do with not understanding my words does it? That was just a smoke screen." I noticed your question and subsequent statement here. No I sincerely didn't understand and still don't. I think probably you are reading my words and interpreting what I am saying differently than my intended meaning, and your responses don't make sense in context to me. No smoke screen. Also I will be happy to talk to you but it seems apparent to me that what I am saying isn't making sense to you, and vice versa so we appear to be talking past each other with no real communication occurring. This sort of thing is generally frowned upon here, and after like page 500 of it usually the thread gets locked because it annoys other members.

Hi Daniel, I edited my post to help clear up any confusion. What I meant was it is exactly the case that the observer is the observed. I hope that clears up any confusion. Thanks.

"observer =/= observed" The observer observes only itself, and nothing more. You can only ever see the contents of yourself, your own mind. You can only ever see energy and information inside your own neural networks. You can only ever observe yourself.

In the analogy I gave of a camera connected to a television, you can unhook a camera and connect a video player and get a different output on your screen. There is no law of the universe which requires a television to display any particular image. The experience you are having can disagree with reality outside of you, we call this a hallucination. This is because the reality you see and experience is an abstraction of the reality outside of yourself, in exactly the same way a television displaying the output of a camera is an abstraction. The best possible case scenario you can hope for using a camera and a television is an abstraction of reality, but never can it be reality itself, it will always be an abstraction. This is just like how a painting of a pipe, is not a pipe itself. What I am trying to convey to you is you are mistaking a painting of a pipe for an actual pipe. The same holds true for an experience on an object, an experience of an object is not the object itself. The computer monitor you are currently looking at, is in fact not a computer monitor at all, but rather an abstraction of one, created in your mind's holodeck. Hope that helps.

"I can excuse myself from your thread. " Please do so.

"Not the best analogy, imo. The shadows are still shadows. Nothing has changed about them. They still exist in exactly the same way they did before. And if they leave the cave, that's a totally different scenario. No one is leaving our shared objective reality such that qualia are abstractions which are inherently unreal. Maybe-maybe one could talk about dreams, and dreaming. But the bed still exists even if the person is under full anesthesia just as it does when they are awake. Nothing has changed about the bed during the dream state. " I think I explained my position with the television and camera analogy above. What we see is not actual reality, but an abstraction of it. If we viewed actual reality it would not be possible to have a hallucination. The reality we inhabit and actually see is a holodeck, and it may or may not represent what is actually happening outside of us. In the image below a little man (homunculus) and he watches a projector inside a skull. Imagine there is no little man, but rather a feedback loop of neural networks which observe themselves and in doing so create a holodeck like virtual experience composed purely of energy and information, which is what you are currently experiencing.

"If I am on DMT and somehow go walk around, I'm still going to be tripping over stuff and walking into walls even if I do not have any visual or physical sensations of their presence. The intoxication fades; I will have bumps and bruises. If what you're saying is true, there would be no deaths from drunk drivers." i am not sure I understand your words. One time I took 20 dried grams of Psilocybin mushrooms, and I saw faces, arms, and hands coming out of my carpet, all with the carpet texture on them. If it were possible to see actual reality, such a thing as a hallucination could not occur. Let's say I have a camera outside my home, and a television connected to it inside my home. Someone could unplug the camera outside, and connect a video player and play ""Never Gonna Give You Up", by Rick Astley", and in turn that is what I would see on my television. If I was standing outside looking in the same direction of where the camera was pointed, I would see a garden instead. The output displayed on the television might be a representation of actual reality outside my home, but it is not required to be. What you see and experience might be a representation of what is happening outside of your skull, but it is not required to be, as is evidenced by the fact you can hallucinate.