kakapo

1 hour ago, wandelaar said:

 

Then wat else was the ground wire connected to apart from the earth? Strange speculations will likely keep circulating as long as it isn't clear how exactly this grounding was done.

There is a grounding rod, a grounding wire, and a grounding rod nut.

The rod is driven deep into the earth, leaving only a small bit exposed.

A grounding rod nut secures the wire.

The wire is run inside the home.

Some people use an unpainted metal chair.

Some people use a large flat sheet of chainmail over a cushion.

Some people use a cooking sheet.

I'm sure there are countless variations on this.

I don't know of anyone in our group who sits with a wire in their bum, though.

11 hours ago, forestofemptiness said:

 

I don't think he was open to all amateurs, nor do these people appear to be professional debunkers. They were introduced to him by the filmmaker John had a prior established relationship with. It is certainly a weird crew: the CEO of an organization initially formed to find the yeti, a doctor who is well known as a competitive sailor, and a neurologist. Neither rank amateurs randomly calling him out, nor an established team versed in either mechanical or electrical engineering, illusions, nor fraud. Rather, they seemed to be contacts of the filmmaker John already knew and was quite sympathetic toward him given his prior documentary. I would note that he wore neither handcuffs and still had his shirt and underwear on, so he failed your established criteria as well. But I would hardly equate this to some stranger calling him out and he immediately agreeing to whatever terms they set out.  

 

In addition, Harry Houdini famously went through strip searches from doctors before his escapes. One trick he was said to have used was to put a lockpick on a fishhook, and when he met the doctor would give the doctor a friendly pat the doctor on the back, hooking the lockpick on the rear of the doctor's jacket. At the end of the exam, he would then give the doctor a thank you pat, picking it back up. So here we have a fraud that arguably may have passed your criteria.

 

Most importantly, we don't see his feet. If he had a device in his sandals as is often done, he could have slipped out of his sandals during any search and then put them back on before any demonstration. So there are still ways to defraud in that video (obviously, since it is not well accepted in the skeptical community, as no demonstration would be). 

An example here: 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

 

 

 

 

So again, it falls back to your own personal experience. I'm not saying John was a fraud, but the proof is not as conclusive as you claim. So again, why go through all the effort at the request of some one you don't even know? 

 

 

 

 

https://mindscience.org/the-foundation/about-tom-slick/

An intrepid explorer, Tom sponsored two expeditions to Nepal in the late 1950s, hoping to find the Yeti in order to scientifically determine whether it was a legitimate "missing link" between Homo sapiens and earlier primates.

While he didn’t find the Yeti, Tom returned from his expeditions in Nepal with a profound desire to explore the unknown mysteries of the mind, inspired by the powers of the mind he observed in the yogis and holy men he encountered. That desire inspired his creation of the Mind Science Foundation.

Roger Nilson, a medical doctor.

Gregory V. Simpson, a very well-known neuroscientist:

Formerly the director of the dynamic neuroimaging laboratory at UCSF, co-director of the dynamic brain activity imaging laboratory at Albert Einstein College of Medicine, and a senior scientist at the brain plasticity institute,

Kosta was the lead engineer for the General Dynamics F-16 Fighting Falcon program.

Kosta convinced John to call Lawrence Blair and assemble a team to investigate him. The hope here was that it would inspire people to pursue and preserve this knowledge, which is at risk of dying out.

John was stripped down to his shirt and underwear and checked with a metal detector.

As to John hiding a negative ion generator and a 9-volt battery on the back of one of the researchers, rest assured that didn't happen.

Also, these negative ion generator devices were not available in the early 1990s, to the best of my knowledge.

Just now, wandelaar said:

 

I don't like the joke either. But perhaps you could tell us what exactly the wire was for and how it was used.

John taught that it was necessary to be electrically grounded during meditation in order to absorb yin chi, which comes from the earth.

3 hours ago, Pak_Satrio said:

Once he’s cuffed they’ll put copper wire up his bum

I know this was meant as a joke, but I just want to state again that no one in our group at least puts wires in their bum or anything like that.

John taught people to sit on the earth during meditation, and a grounding wire was only to be used if it was snowing or raining.

Even then, no wire went anywhere near anyone's bum.

4 hours ago, wandelaar said:

 

The problem is: I can't create such a protocol because I haven't got the expertise to do so. However if a skeptical (but nevertheless open minded) organization that has the expertise to rule out fraud to the best of their ability would find the electrical chi phenomenon to exist then I would reckon it a lot more likely that it does actually exist. And when other skeptical organizations afterwards are able to replicate the positive result than I would consider it even more likely that the electrical chi phenomenon exists. Physics has come to except even more strange phenomena in the fields of relativity theory and quantum mechanics so I have no doubt that after the first shock on seeing the electric chi phenomenon actually happen scientists would eventually accept the existence of electrical chi, that is: if there is a good repeatable experiment that shows it. But such a trajectory would take some years or even decades, and the best approach for me personally would be to have a simple experiment that I can do myself to take away my doubts. But such a simple experiment may well be impossible. And I don't want to invest years of training to acquire some capability that might not even exist and that I don't plan to use for any other purpose than convincing me of its existence anyway.

I am pretty sure you could strip Chris Angel naked, check him with a metal detector, have him change into clothes you provided, take him to a random hotel you choose while under your constant supervision while someone else drove you, and when you got to your location, you could have him strip and check his body with a metal detector again and check the clothes themselves for hidden devices.

Stage magic depends on devices hidden on his person and props he has set up at the location beforehand.

If you followed that protocol, you could be fairly certain that stage magic would not be possible.

If it would work on a stage magician, it would work on a person claiming Siddhis too.

What are everyone's thoughts on cultured meat, milk, and eggs?

Would it feel wrong morally to consume meat, milk, and eggs if there was no animal, and no brain?

8 hours ago, Shadow_self said:

 

There's a lot more that could be said if I wasn't quadruple checking my posts so as not to tread on toes (too much anyway)  

 

5 hours ago, forestofemptiness said:

 

Gee, I wonder why more people aren't signing up to be stripped, handcuffed, and probed by strangers in a hotel room. Seriously? I wouldn't do this to prove that I can speak English. The fact that you can't see how people would not be willing to sign up for such a thing is troubling and quite frankly undermines the credibility of these posts. 

 

Nor could one expect anyone who mastered fa qi to subject themselves to testing by amateurs anyway, or professional debunkers. No matter what you do, it won't be enough. In addition, you've already made it clear that you prefer to hide behind anonymous rumors and innuendoes rather than give people a chance to rebut your allegations.

 

And anyway, the gold standard isn't scientific testing, but self replication. Without being able to learn it yourself, there will always be doubts. Plus, who cares if some one else can do it, if you can't ever learn to do it yourself? 

 

John did it:

15 hours ago, wandelaar said:

 

I don't see how this relates to my post. I never claimed illusionists to be paranormally gifted. I only suggested a physical experiment you could do. If influencing an electroscope would be easy for you and those of your group then it might also be interesting for others like myself to see if they can train themselves to do it. An electroscope is a very sensitive and relatively cheap instrument, so it could in principle be used in DIY experiments. However if you or people from your group can't influence an electroscope than it's useless for me to even try. That's why I asked.

I guess I really didn't finish my thought and left it hanging. My apologies.

So if you could create a protocol that would make it extremely difficult, if not impossible, for a stage magician like David Blane, David Copperfield, Chris Angel, and others to cheat, then this same protocol should also work on the subject in question.

There is no need to have a stage magician to rule out fraud if they themselves couldn't cheat the protocol.

15 hours ago, Shadow_self said:

 

Well I respect your opinion also (genuinely) , and It is not that I don't think independent oversight cant be helpful.

 

Im just wondering exactly how it fits into what you are talking about regards "professional"

 

Scientists and doctors generally don't go around debunking people.

 

There is one specific subfield of psychology concerned with this, which is anomalistic psychology

 

https://www.psychologytoday.com/ie/blog/weird-science/200909/anomalistic-psychology-what-is-it-and-why-bother

 

 

The thing here would be they take what appears to be "paranormal" and attempt to find a "normal" explanation via experimentation or other means. So this is the field of academia you'd really need to be in to be considered an "expert" or "professional" in regards to something like this

 

Have your group personally ever taken someone from this field with you to investigate such phenomena?

 

To me if you really wanted to have any kind of "proof" that this is not explainable by current understanding, then you'd first need to get the whole, yeah its not trickery thing done. I mean if you are talking about people who do this "professionally" then this is the realm they tend to operate in. The logical sequence would be after you've gotten such people to rule out "fraud" that you would then mobilize others to try and "explain" (IE things like an MRI we mentioned earlier)

 

The Idea of appeal to authority is less a jab and more a  nod to the fact that you guys collectively, I'm sure, have more experience meeting people and trying to investigate this specific phenomenon than any doctor, scientist or dare I say, anomalistic psychologist.

 

I mean your description of past experiences points to the idea you've all done this dozens of times, correct? 

 

So if lets say, you aren't bringing an anomalistic psychologist with you, who is basically a professional in relation to finding natural explanations for seemingly "paranormal" phenomena, it is rather hard to say you are looking for an expert opinion.

 

Moreover, if you've done this multiple times, and doctors/scientists have not, it feels more concerned with having a few people with PhD after there name who appear to be authorities (doctors/scientists) but in reality, have actually no real expertise in the area

 

PS: Im aware that there are several people from all manner of backgrounds who run these "paranormal" challenges that you mentioned. Majority of the time however, its not actually their field of expertise, which I am sure you know. As you can see from the boxed text above, they will typically dismiss your claim without even looking at the evidence, an experience you seem to be rather accustomed to. 

I am not sure if at this time we'd be interested in a parapsychologist or anomalistic psychologist, but thank you for your suggestion.

22 hours ago, wandelaar said:

@kakapo After a good nights rest I'm back. Years back I already pointed out that medical doctors and scientists can be easily fooled by a skilled stage magician. There has been a little improvement in the discussion now in the sense that the possibility (or even the likelihood) of fraud is recognized. But you absolutely have to add some critical minded stage magicians to the team if you want to rule out fraud to the best of your ability.

 

Better still would be to search for an experimental method that can register even minute forms of physical chi projection so that anybody willing to do a little training can test it at home. All supposing chi projection to exist of course. I wonder if working with an electroscope would help. Have you guys tried using such an apparatus?

 

 

If you stripped Chris Angel naked, handcuffed him, and took him to a random hotel room you chose, checking him for metal with a metal detector, I bet his magic wouldn't be so great.

That's just my opinion.

18 hours ago, Shadow_self said:

 

The problem is, I have yet to meet a person who suggests this approach, and also  understands the actual ramifications of this

 

 

Is there something they can do that you cannot to rule out this possibility of fraud?

 

Or is this just about the appeal to authority

 

(Genuine question, not meant in a harsh way) 

 

 

Academics and doctors, believe it or not rarely have a critical mindset.

 

I know of some who would actually take this on, and would be rather happy to. They could have all the dots joined relatively quickly, and a contract signed in about a week or less

 

The bigger issue, and I feel really strongly about this, is that I don't think the world needs this now. Im not a fan of putting anything of this manner into the public academic sphere. 

 

I understand what they are trying to do here, and while perhaps, their hearts are in the right place, which I do respect I do not believe any of them have the experience or foresight to know whats comes out of this, and if they did, I think a more reserved approach would be taken

 

 

There is sometimes a tangible of feeling Xie Qi when it is purged from the body.

 

If you were to pass it to someone else, they would feel something. Some people use this as a means to pretend they can actually project qi, when in reality, they are just making another person ill

 

Actually, better yet, in some cases it is actually visible as a kind of smoke, or you start seeing all manner of weird stuff happen.

 

The issue however, is it requires a certain level of foundational work to get going

 

When you are dealing with people who don't want to do the foundational work, but want the result...it gets kind of tricky

 

Just a quick FYI

 

If I recall correctly, people have already done the whole projection into a liquid thing and lab tested it to confirm nothing was added.

 

Youd need to reach out to them to ask real specifics, they havent been here in a while

 

 

 

 

 

 

I can certainly understand why you feel this is an appeal to authority.

Police routinely kill people, "lose" the bodycam and dashcam footage, and report no one saw anything.

Then they investigate themselves and determine that they did nothing wrong.

This is why I am an advocate for independent oversight and investigation.

I also try to project how I see things and imagine how others might as well.

When I see these videos of people demonstrating siddhis, my first thought is, "Who knows if a device is being used or not?"

What I want to see is independent oversight by qualified individuals doing their best to rule out fraud on camera.

This, to me, is the gold standard in evidence.

If you feel that amounts to an appeal to authority, I respect your opinion.

Just now, Pak_Satrio said:

 

They at least show something. Those who want to know more will seek these people out and find out for themselves if they are frauds or not.

 

But from you guys we have nothing at all but words and an old Pak John video.

We do in-person demonstrations to the best of our ability.

5 minutes ago, Pak_Satrio said:

 

Why even make a video with scientists at all if you don't want to attract new students?

Maybe there is some miscommunication here.

You asked why we didn't release video evidence without scientists and medical doctors present to rule out any possibility of fraud.

I answered because we want to release high-quality evidence, not low-quality evidence.

Quality over quantity

Already there are tons of YouTube videos from other people, but without a concerted effort by professionals to attempt to rule out fraud, they are of little to no value.

Just now, Pak_Satrio said:

Ok if that’s the case then why bother doing all that work to get scientists, doctors etc to prove it is real on camera? That will bring the most amount of new people, and a lot more people who would otherwise have no interest in these arts until some guy in a white coat says it’s real.

 

 

 

I am not sure I understand your meaning here; could you re-word this, please?

Just now, Pak_Satrio said:

What about just doing your own videos without them? At the very least you will get more new students.

Quality over quantity

5 minutes ago, Shadow_self said:

 

Im not interested in the "evidence" per se, dont worry  I already know folk with said Dantien

 

Just pointing out something that you may have overlooked

 

Thanks.

1 minute ago, Shadow_self said:

 

FYI for anyone who doesnt know what I am talking about, Im talking about this

 

 

There is one thing though, well two actually

 

#1 They wont need to testify to anything because their report will be the findings of an MRI, and thats pretty much their confirmed professional account of what is on the scan right? .
 

That is really more or less testimony in and of itself right? Accompanied by the scan itself, you pretty much have what you need

 

#2 They don't know what they are looking for, and so, Im fairly sure that they'll be sending you to other doctors if they find a rather large unknown mass in your abdomen. It isnt their career that is under threat as a result of the findings

 

You must understand, asking someone to confirm something paranormal = career suicide in academia

Asking someone to perform an MRI scan because of a concerning pressure in your stomach = Their actual job to investigate

 

All you guys really have to do is go to somewhere that'll give you the report and the scan, which is something you can walk in and get the same day in the UK at least. Once the report is signed, thats your medical information, not theirs, and they cannot really sue you because you didnt do anything except release your own medical report.

 

I mean im not suggesting you go disseminating the results to the world or try to get it broadcast on the news or anything. Really, I'm not

 

Just its kind of clear to me that this is probably the easiest way for any of you to get something close to what you are seeking.

 

It'd certainly quieten the naysayers up at least (if thats something you all want).  For a relatively small fee too I might add

 

It is actually reproducible too, because you can always just follow up to another clinic and repeat it, with a different medical professional, which would actually strengthen the result.

 

Im quite surprised, given the lengths you've went to, you didnt think of doing this sooner.

 

 

Please see my previous statement.

1 minute ago, Shadow_self said:

 

As much a question as a suggestion to be honest

 

I assume that given that you have all been training in Mo Pai, someone has reached this degree of development?

 

Because, if so, I think it would be really easy to put questions to bed doubts

We'll be sticking to our demonstrations for now, but if we can find a medical professional who is a US citizen and willing to sign a legally binding contract with us, this may be something we can provide in the future.

We won't be posting any videos or evidence without expert testimony to accompany it.

Thanks for the suggestion!

37 minutes ago, Shadow_self said:

 

Academics will rarely stick their neck out for you.

 

They are often rather fear based folk (sorry to anyone who is an academic but it is true). Incase anyone thinks this claim is unfounded I could provide a lot of evidence across multiple fields. Most are more concerned with the promotion and the paycheck than doing their job correctly (where uncovering truth is concerned)

 

I am going to tell you now the vast majority of them are dishonest (In many ways, from manipulation of figures to all sorts)  and a large portion of the remainder are  simply too afraid to touch such a topic.

 

There is a very big vested interest in keeping the materialistic worldview going.

 

The very few I do know that are willing to, have already been at loggerheads and been booted from certain universities for touching stuff far tamer than this.

 

Granted some are in other far lower ranked places since this, but they were seriously reprimanded for their actions.

 

That being said, there are too other people who aren't privy to the bureaucracy of "big academia" .

 

It might be the case you have not looked in the right places

 

 

To what end if not that, curiously? Just to see where it goes

 

I'd be curious to know, have any of you actually went for an MRI scan?  No academic would be needed for that, you can book them yourselves and go right ahead, and come out with the images and a report  

 

Im pretty sure in John's video, he had a very visible dantien

 

Something to consider....

 

 

 

I think lots of people have lots of reasons; I can't speak for every person.

For me, you know, if I could, I would love to explore Antarctica, the ocean depths, and even the galaxy at large.

For me, this is about finding something that is real—exploration into the unknown.

1 hour ago, Shadow_self said:

 

Im just curious why thats not been done up to this point. I mean why go to all that trouble? If this is the burden of proof expected to undertake something for them, isnt that the burden of proof that should be provided?

 

 

Mo Pai is rather odd. Ive seen some of the practices near replicated in Tenaga Dalam, on more than one occasion

 

 

Im not sure what the end of the road is for them to be honest.

 

Seems they are concerned with breaking the transmigration cycle, but Im not sure there is any evidence of Mo Pai doing that.

Not everyone in our group wants that; some just want to practice something they know for a fact is legitimate.

25 minutes ago, Pak_Satrio said:

 

This is a good idea. Make a video of current Western Mo Pai practitioners doing exactly what Pak John did in his video with the scientists and doctors present. That will clear up a lot of things.

 

But even then that doesn't solve the problem of lineage. They are still not allowed to join the actual Mo Pai, so they will never progress past a certain point unless they decide to figure things out for themselves, but at that point it will turn into completely new practices unless they get lucky and find the exact same practices that Mo Pai do for higher levels. 

 

In my opinion it's not worth starting a path if it will lead to a dead end. If you want to invest years of your life and so much of your time doing practice then do something that has a chance of taking you to the end of the road, not something that barely scratches the surface.

There were actually threats of a lawsuit the last time we tried this.

The assumption is that they will only agree to the publication of a video if it appears that they have discovered fraud; if the video is used to validate something of this nature, it will harm their reputation.

We had a legal contract drafted.

This was done to protect us against such a thing in the future.

By signing it, they lose their ability to revoke consent to publish and their ability to sue if we did so against their wishes.

This seems to be very off-putting; we've contacted a few dozen people, but none are willing to sign it as part of the demonstration.

We have also contacted every single paranormal challenge we are aware of and have been told that, because the human body can act as an antenna, EMF is the most likely cause.

We have demonstrated in national forest service land, far, far away from any power line or power source, in places where there is no cellphone service even.

This does not seem to affect their decision not to investigate.

1 hour ago, Shadow_self said:

 

Seems like an awful lot of effort. You guys seem to have a very clear definition of what constitutes proof

 

Because I know it is your thing, why not ask a few scientists and doctors to catch the thing on video, then present that. If a person was of a like mind, they'd probably come to you. Seems like it saves you all a bunch of money, time and effort?

 

Personally, I dont find the electrical thing a good measure. I think I explained why earlier. The effect isnt always whats faked, sometimes it is the cause. And that is far more difficult to capture

 

How would you say, convince someone who said that? (Dont worry im not trolling you, just curious)

If the evidence we can provide convinces them, great!

If the evidence we can provide does not convince them, then that's unfortunate.

We do the best we can with what we have.

45 minutes ago, Shadow_self said:

 

I appreciate the tolerance  

 

 

I'm more curious why you would fly to someone to do a demonstration in the first place?

 

Are you trying to lead by example here or what?

The motivation here is to convince serious seekers that this is real.