kakapo

3 hours ago, Pak_Satrio said:

Who are these people?

I can't point fingers without serious repercussions.

I foresee that making such an accusation would start a conflagration of epic proportions between their students and myself.

I am sure the staff here on the forum wouldn't take kindly to such an event.

It's best not to open that can of worms.

15 hours ago, Pak_Satrio said:

Yes I’ve seen this video posted so many times, yet there is never any written report posted about the findings. Anyway it doesn’t matter to me because I believe what he is doing is real.

 

However have you personally ever experienced faqi in real life? If you have you will know that it’s not just Pak John who can do it. It’s even found in non Daoist traditions too.

When it comes to evidence that can be easily mass produced and transmitted to others, we are very limited. We can record the event on video with audio, audio only, or text. We can record personal testimony on audio and text, in which we must take the author's word that the event occurred as they believe it did. We know that the human mind is prone to self-deception, selectively remembers some things, ignores others, and distorts memories to fit worldviews. We know that human memory is fallible. In court, multiple eyewitnesses can give drastically different testimonies of the same event for these very reasons. Video, though it can be altered and doctored, is the best choice to help address these issues. It is why police departments use body cameras, we use dash cams, and banks use high-resolution cameras. Video acts as a safeguard for fallible human memory and perceptions. The best-case scenario I know of is to have doctors and scientists present to do their best to rule out fraud and capture the event on video. Having them record their personal thoughts on the matter in writing is inconsequential.

I personally have, yes.

I, however, have not seen any compelling evidence for any other system besides mo-pai or tummo.

There was a member of a famous lineage who demonstrated such abilities on YouTube, and he was offered $10,000 USD for a 15-minute demonstration that would occur at a hotel close to his house under controlled conditions with no cameras present if he didn't want to be filmed. He refused.

Another famous person here on this forum is claiming similar abilities. We traveled to him and found him wearing the device I mentioned in the previous post.

Collectively, we could have purchased several homes for all the money we've spent traveling to China, chasing leads, only to come back empty-handed.

I and the rest of the group are open to there being other systems that do this, but we've seen no good evidence at this time for it.

1 hour ago, Pak_Satrio said:

 

What evidence did he provide specifically that makes him stand out more than others?

 

Also nowadays you can learn how to do this at a decent price. 

I posted the video above.

John invited a team of scientists and medical doctors to investigate him.

They stripped him down to his shirt and underwear and used a metal detector to check him for metal before getting a demonstration.

They then repeated this at a random location they chose, in an effort to rule out some device on his property causing the effect.

Certainly in this day and age, not everyone will accept this as evidence, and we all wish that there had been subsequent replication studies of this with different researchers.

That said, it is the best evidence we know of.

Right now, for other arts, there are a lot of YouTube videos; however, there are no scientists or medical doctors who make a best-case effort to rule out fraud.

Much of what we see on YouTube can be replicated using negative ion generators and infrared lasers.

Fun fact: A member of our group caught a teacher who is highly recommended on thedaobums using a negative ion generator device that is worn in the shoe and has a metal collection plate on the bottom of the shoe.

A device much like this one:

https://www.amazon.com/Murphys-Magic-Electric-Gimmick-Mesika/dp/B00LPC1X80

3 hours ago, Pak_Satrio said:

There are many other systems where you can learn this without the risk and racism

That may be true; however, we would need at least the same type and quality of evidence John provided before investing our lives in such a system.

Collectively, we could own several houses had we not spent thousands upon thousands of dollars chasing dead ends.

Other people may not require evidence to pursue a system, and that is fine if they are comfortable with that.

7 hours ago, Wu Ming Jen said:

Jing is sexual energy that is missing the other 95% of the equation. A philosophical blunder loved by Chai. Yes sex is exciting and sells. Yes the classics use birth and sex as a metaphor to relate to people.

 

(Metaphor a figure of speech in which a word or phrase is applied to an object or action to which it is not literally applicable.) 

 

The stay away list puts Chia in the top ten my list. Mo Pai may be able to actual get the award of worst system ever if there was a Dao Bums award show.

 

On the flip side of negativity that is as addictive as sex. My nomination for the greatest contributor of this century in the internal martial arts category goes to Dr. Yang Jwing Ming.

 

 

What you claim is true, assuming it's a reader's choice award.

We wish people would examine the evidence themselves and draw their own conclusions, though.

8 minutes ago, Wilhelm said:

The connotation is meant to respect the lineage.  I wouldn't call myself Army if I simulated basic training in my garage, even if it was an accurate simulation.  I appreciate the desire for sameness but if Mo Pai doesn't choose to associate with your group then it would feel disrespectful for me to equate the two.

John taught Kosta and Jim; they were part of the lineage. Many of our members received direct training from them. We retain their videos of John providing instruction. That is how lineages work: transmission from teacher to student. Teachers die, and students become the next generation of teachers. We'll have to agree to disagree if you feel otherwise.

8 hours ago, wandelaar said:

@kakapo

 

I don't know if it's correct what you are writing about Original Dao (I was only an ordinary member), but it completely ignores my explanation of why the posts by Mo Pai enthusiasts here were often spam-like. This was typical before I left here to join Original Dao, and apparently the same self-defeating pattern is still followed today. Years have past, and nothing is learned. It's still all about the perceived injustices done to Mo Pai by its critics. The ironic thing about all this is that you are accomplishing the exact opposite of what you are after. True masters like Lao tzu didn't like being misunderstood or laughed at, but they didn't go after their critics to defeat them in endless debates either. They simply presented their view on life. And after that it's take it or leave it, and live with the consequences.

Let's say this were a pottery forum, and Jane and Co. made pottery.

If 20 different forum members started claiming that Jane and Co. stuffed their pottery in their buttocks, used chemicals in their pottery glazes that caused cancer, and had a cult that used slave labor, how long do you think Jane and Co. would stay in business?

I would venture to guess Jane and Co. wouldn't stay in business very long if the entire pottery community started repeating those claims.

That would be libel and defamation of character.

Words hurt, whether we pretend they don't or not.

Imagine now that Jane from Jane and Co joined the pottery forum to state that no, we don't stuff pottery in our buttocks, we don't use cancer-causing chemicals, and we don't have a cult filled with slave labor.

Imagine her surprise when she is suspended for spamming and then banned for it, and the same for all her other employees and even happy customers.

There is nothing even remotely similar to spam in that situation, and Jane isn't the bad guy.

11 hours ago, Wilhelm said:

Sorry friend, that was supposed to be funny not insulting.  I respect anyone with intensity and dedication to their practice, and I know these are common traits in the western 'Mo Pai' group

I am sure it is funny, just not to us.

Personally, I think you should have the right to express your opinion here, no matter what it is.

As to "Western" Mo Pai, if I boil a chicken egg for 7 minutes at sea level, I get a boiled egg; it doesn't matter if it was cooked in the USA or Indonesia, or if we had the chickens' blessing to boil the egg or not. In this regard, there is no such thing as a Western boiled egg and an Indonesian boiled egg.

There is only what John taught, exactly as he taught it on video, or something different from that.

It would make all of my group happy at least if you didn't refer to us as "western" mo pai because the connotation is that western mo pai follows different teachings and thus isn't the same as eastern mo pai.

Thanks.

2 hours ago, wandelaar said:

The problem I remember from before I (temporarily) moved to Original Dao was the following: One critical mentioning of Mo Pai was typically followed by loads of posts by Mo Pay enthusiasts defending Mo Pai. And that (the shear overkill of Mo Pai defenses whenever the opportunity seemed to present itself) is spamming.

The staff contacted us directly and invited us to their forum because they felt bad about our treatment on thedaobums and promised us a safe haven on Originaldao.

LOL.

We did not save all the discussions in our private forum, but a few key replies were saved.

The gist of the situation was that an individual named Shadow_Self, who went by Pegasus1992 over on Original Dao, was able to convince the staff that we were evil and needed to be dealt with.

He seems to be very good at that sort of thing.

He went so far as to persuade the staff that McMillan and Dervenis were not John's students, and we practiced some other art.

The staff demanded we choose a new name to be known by, and we chose "So Mad" students of McMillan and Dervenis.

We were told we couldn't post more than once per week right after the name change, and then we were officially banned from the forum shortly after that.

Of course, we all still had accounts there; we just couldn't correct lies and misinformation about ourselves and our practices.

Just like we all still have accounts here and on various other private forums, but most of us just remain silent.

6 hours ago, ilumairen said:

Hi @kakapo,

 

It was nice not seeing anything about wires in butts for awhile. Now you have mentioned it five times in two posts. 
 

On 1/1/2023 at 12:20 PM, Wilhelm said:

I thought the issue was that the practices Jim and Kostas taught weren't effective - copper wire to the butthole pooped away all the Qi

Just one recent example.

16 minutes ago, steve said:

My sincere recommendation as a mod and a practitioner is that you look at yourself first. If you change, the world around you changes, no other way. What is it about your mode of communication, and the contents, that results in conflict and denied access?

 

As a practitioner, I look at the situation, from the center, what is my own experience, my responsibility and opportunity? Everything I project on others is never anything other than my own experience.

 

There are said to be 3 levels of practitioner -

1st level accepts all responsibility for their situation.   end of story.

2nd level accepts partial responsibility, blaming others and circumstances to varying degrees. 

3rd level practitioners accept none genuinely, only insincerely, and see their problems as primarily caused by the outside world… lowest level practitioner.

 

As a mod I try to deal fairly based on how members treat each other through words and action, with no as little as possible concern for the tradition being represented, or lack thereof. 

 

As a human being, I feel that Mo Pai is a danger in the West, particularly to the inexperienced. It is an undeniable dead-end. The highest knowledge of Mo Pai in the West is rudimentary and unreliable. I would not recommend anyone practice it. The lineage in the West is broken and it is a very lineage dependent transmission. 

 

So you’re welcome to post whatever suits you if you’re following the rules and I’ll moderate as fairly as I can.

 

Thanks for checking in κάλτσες

What has me and the rest of the group scratching our collective heads is how "no, we don't stick wires into our buttocks" constitutes spam and is worthy of being banned.

The only fair solution appears to be to give both sides a voice or to deny both sides a voice.

Right now, the situation we have is that it's acceptable to claim our practice causes cancer, we stuff wires into our buttocks, and our group is a cult.

Saying that those claims are not true is considered trolling and spam.

I understand life isn't fair, and no one is entitled to free speech on a platform they don't own, but this seems unreasonable to me and every other member of our group.

I've come here to ask the mods, admin, and owner to please listen.

Those I know personally all agree it seems impossible for anyone who likes Mo Pai to express that viewpoint here on this forum.

If some member trolls and accuses us of "sticking wires in our buttocks,"  or that our practice causes cancer, or who knows what else, if we say anything in defense of that attack, we are suspended for spamming, and then eventually banned, while the people slinging the mud are allowed to retain membership here.

It doesn't seem to matter how polite or respectful any of our members are, it always results in suspension for spamming, and then a ban soon thereafter.

We are labeled as the aggressors, the trolls, and those who hate the practice are allowed to continue on as they always have.

Other people come to this forum to research Mo Pai and come away with the impression that we all stick wires in our buttocks, die of cancer, and belong to a cult.

None of that is true, but that is the impression they come away with.

What can we do as a group to counter this misinformation without you perceiving us as the aggressors and trolls?

What can we do to prevent being suspended for spamming when we say "no, we don't put wires in our buttocks"?

From our perspective, this behavior is bullying, harassment, and cruel.

Words hurt, and not being allowed to defend your friends, family, and practice only adds insult to injury.

It seems to me that there has to be some middle ground here.

 I love Naruto!

26 minutes ago, ilumairen said:

Seems an interesting name. How did you choose it?

I am Kakapo!