styrofoamdog

Care to cite where Wang Liping and Nan Huaijin state that Full Lotus is necessary for cultivation?

I've been reading a Nan Huai-Chin book lately, and I've read in many of Drew Hempel's posts that he holds Dr. Nan in high regard. What I find funny about this is that in the book, Dr. Nan introduces over 20 different positions for cultivation, and then states that they are basically interchangeable and that readers can pick whichever they prefer. People always want to believe that there's a secret bit of esoteric information -- a body position, a mudra, some secret practice only one master knows about, etc. that's keeping us from enlightenment. We have Buddhist sutras, Daoist classics, and excellent books at our fingertips. Our learning resources are richer than any number of monks and students who existed in the past. But today I think we don't value what we learn, and we practice it even less. In my opinion, the only missing element today is hard work and dedication.

What are you saying "ew" for, Darin? That skin flake dust is quality post-heaven jing that's lost if it isn't ingested.

That's a very good article, and I admire Mr. Ma's skill and approach to teaching. I think part of the problem with Microcosmic Orbit is that it is an important breakthrough, and so everyone wants to learn it and teach it. They think that they can force it open by pushing qi through it, but I don't think that's the real breakthrough. From people like Wang Liping and Ma Chuanxu, we can see that the method for real breakthrough is simple and comes naturally without driving the qi. Nan Huai-chin also teaches that it opens this way. And actually, out of all three masters, I don't think that any of them mentions that students should focus on the lower dan tian during practice either.

I just noticed that on YouTube there is a short clip of Cheng Man-Ching discussing Microcosmic Orbit and its role in Taijiquan, through a translator. Cheng just discusses opening the path and how it facilitates qi flow for movements. I thought that it was very interesting, since he never really discussed this in his books, and I assumed that he only discussed such things with certain students. I never would have suspected that there would be video with sound, of him discussing these things openly.

Yeah, this video was also the first time I heard him speak. It was really an eye-opener for me to hear him discussing real internal principles and the importance of Microcosmic Orbit so frankly. I remember one of his books as being my first introduction to Taijiquan. I was a bit disappointed at the time that the book didn't discuss how to use it for self-defense or how to build up qi and circulate it. Later on, I just dismissed these books as not having a lot of depth. But I guess this was only because he was a more secretive master. In contrast, Da Liu was also an early Taijiquan teacher in the U.S., but explained internal principles of practice openly in his books.

I agree that we don't know if Wong beat Lee or not. I would guess that there wasn't a decisive win on either side. And we do know that Lee basically gave up on his Wing Chun following the fight, so I have a hard time believing that he would have done that if it had been a win for him. About the strength conditioning, I agree with an earlier poster who said the guy should ask his teacher. Going around his training by thinking that Bruce Lee's will be most beneficial doesn't seem like a sound choice. Taijiquan is very different from what Bruce Lee practiced, and has its own training for these things.

His fight with Wong Jack Man, who Lee admitted he didn't beat. The fight sent him looking for a new martial art and developing Jeet Kune Do. http://www.lakungfu.com/sifujackmanwong.html There are several other stories about him being embarrassed by other martial artists for running off his mouth about being the best in the world. But in the end, he was just talk because he never proved any of it. In contrast, Yang Luchan, Guo Yunshen, and Wang Xiangzhai actively traveled throughout China fighting the best masters they could. They earned the awesome reputations they had, but never claimed to be the best because they understood the huge scope of martial arts and stayed humble.

How do we know that? How many matches did he fight in? I only know of one real one, and he didn't win it....

You know what always amazes me, is that we have classics written by Immortals and Bodhisattvas on how to practice cultivation -- but we still think that the most important training from a charismatic young Caucasian guy who teaches his completely different secret hidden methods for $10,000. If people were really interested in this stuff, they would just go to Wang Liping, who was supposedly trained by immortals and who David claims is his teacher. Wang Liping is at least a famous master who has proven himself over the course of several decades. And people can learn from him without spending their life savings.

This is what I didn't want the thread to turn into. Why do we have to throw in Gurdjieff, "O at a D's", bushmen, pineal love energy, etc.? I thought this was about Wang Liping and microcosmic circulation....

I agree with Wang Liping. I don't think that full lotus is magic, but I do think it is probably the best way to sit for most meditation. It just blocks off the legs the most, so it helps to pool qi into the dan tian (the furnace), and directs circulation elsewhere. For internal alchemy and especially building the foundation, I think it's good because otherwise qi will just be diverted into the legs.

The Secret of the Golden Flower was attributed to Lu Dongbin, who is referred to as Lu Tzu / Luzi (Master Lu). http://www.alchemylab.com/golden_flower.htm Some background on the text, explaining its origins: http://hk.geocities.com/akrishi0/goflower/eng/gf_intro.htm

For what it's worth, I've never heard of simply accumulating jing for 100/108 days without any meditation to go along with it. I don't know about the specifics of what you have been taught, and what you are practicing, but you may find this thread illuminating: http://www.thetaobums.com/lofiversion/index.php/t5791.html

That's very nice of you. "I want you to die because I don't like you". So you don't read translations of Daoist or Buddhist classics on cultivation? They're just old poems that explain and document these exact subjects. They're widely available, easy to find, and they can shed some light on what past masters thought were the most important points of practice. Pretty fundamental material, really.

Hehe, that's probably true about the touchy subjects. I'm probably the only person who has been reading this blog previously. I found it when there were only 2-3 posts. I was surprised that there were no comments on it. When the author started posting on the small heavenly orbit as Wang Liping teaches it, I was happy to see that their methods are for the real breakthrough small heavenly orbit. This just involves converting jing into qi, and building it up at the dan tian until the channels naturally open. And I agree that the blog is a true gem. I found it when I was searching for information on Wang Liping awhile back.

I can sit in full lotus, and I have been able to since I was a young teenager. And on the other point, mind pointing out how I did, then? When I read a classic, I try to consider the emphasis the writer is putting on each element of the practice. I have never read a Daoist classic that emphasized sitting in full lotus as a key to anything. Edit: The writer of the blog never states or even implies that anyone opened up the small heavenly orbit because they could sit in full lotus for long periods at a time. It simply states that two successful practitioners during one class could sit in full lotus for long periods, which is an indication that they are experienced in meditation. You'll also notice that there were over a dozen others who also succeeded at it in an earlier class, despite no mention whatsoever that any of them could sit in full lotus.

Why? So you can try to play the elitist and criticize him? No respected Daoist classics emphasize full lotus that I'm aware of. And the blog postings don't either, for that matter. No matter what a respected master writes, you always try to twist their words to suit your own theories connecting it to music, math, and full lotus. Give it a rest....

Why all the hostility about these very simple and basic questions being asked? His teachers probably don't like being portrayed as crotchety old traditionalists who are bothered by a question about their pupil. If they were offended by the questions, they wouldn't have answered them. But they gave very direct answers about what Max learned, and the things that they don't know about his practices now. I don't know plenty of people, but if I were curious about something and want to find out an answer from the source, I would ask them. Is that really such a bad thing? When comparing Kunlun level 1 and Spontaneous Adjustment Qigong, why wouldn't someone want to ask Jenny? Especially when Max never fully explains his Kunlun lineage.

So we now know that what Max teaches as Kunlun level 1 and fills with poetic ideas about mysterious hidden energies, was simply known as Spontaneous Adjustment Qigong, and utilizes qi. What Max and Jenny teach is the same basic thing. What they teach is the same as what Wong Kiew-kit teaches as Self-Manifested Qi Flow. Wow, who would have ever guessed that a practice like Kunlun level 1, which assumes a posture and allows the body to completely relax and react to internal stimuli, would be extremely similar to another that has the exact same methods? You Kunlun people and your silly games... Just because you say you're cultivating a special and unique universal bliss energy passed down from shamans and Egyptian mystery schools doesn't make it so.

That's interesting what Karen said, and a lot of it reflects my experiences. Sometimes after practicing meditation and being in an energized state, after I go to bed I'll experience it. It happens right after I fall asleep, and I hear vibrations, feel trapped, and then feel myself shaking away from my physical body. I can try to stop it, but I usually start to vibrate out of it. I try to cling to my bed, but I feel like I'm being dragged out. I've never fully separated. It's a shocking experience, and when I manage to snap myself back to my body, I wake up. Only a few minutes have passed, and I feel like I've been sleeping for hours. And after I snap back, I can still feel the vibrations and hear them as well. If I'm not careful, it's easy to go back fall back into it again. It has only happened to me while I've been laying on my back. I've had lucid dreams and that sort of thing, but this is quite different. It feels as real as anything else, and there's not the same dreaming element. Fantasies don't come to life, and such. I'm not someone easily scared, but this can get pretty intense and frightening.

Well, if it's a true alchemical process, then shouldn't the people who practice it know what the energy is? I don't think that I'm asking about something so vast in scope that it is beyond any description. If Kunlun is internal alchemy, then energy is the basic means by which inner transformations are made. And as something so fundamental, shouldn't the people practicing know what the energy is? Hasn't Max ever explained what it is, and if it is qi or not? Or does he just give poetic answers? Or am I just going to get more "you can never understand it until you practice it" stuff? Because I'm not sure what good this sort of advice would do for me -- it sounds like even the people who have been actively practicing it don't know what the energy is.

So... in other words, Kunlun is magic and different from everything else. Its energy is different from every other energy, and nobody is really sure how compatible it is with other practices. I guess Kunlun is so clear and simple that nobody seems to know anything about it...

So do so many people who practice Kunlun seriously not know what Kunlun's energy is, and whether or not it is qi? Is it just qi, but with a few extra doses of magnetism and bliss?

I joined two days ago to ask a question about Wang Liping, and the answers that I got were very helpful. However, after reading through a variety of the other threads, I think it's sad that the level of anger and dogmatism is so great on this forum. To me it seems very antithetical to argue and intellectualize the nature of the Dao. When French missionaries first encountered Daoism, they described the Daoists as evil, and their ideas about immortality as ridiculous. Ever since that time, the West has (often overtly) portrayed "proper" Daoism as philosophical ideas from Laozi and Zhuangzi, and everything else as corruption. Early visitors were happy to arrogantly look down on practicing Daoists with scorn, when they in fact had little to no understanding of their practices. The history of Daoism in China is very long, and its culture has been a rich one of mutual respect. An inner elixir cultivator would respect someone who practiced magic from Maoshan, who would in turn respect a Daoist gongfu master. They practiced what they felt was effective for them, but they recognized the skill and accomplishment of those from other sects as well. They didn't argue with each other about the Dao -- they practiced it daily.