5 minutes ago, Nungali said:

 

You are going to have to give me a context that this question is framed by  .... more than an empty quote box .

The empty text box happened automatically. Context: if the traits that makes us human, are different in degree or nature to that of animals. Instead of assuming what traits you think that is, ill let you speak your mind

5 minutes ago, Nungali said:

ts not about being 'unique' , its not about other animals 'not being complex' , its not about awareness beginning or ending   either .  However it is about a specific TYPE of awareness . For some reason, this usually happens  and that is also very interesting .... VERY interesting - that is, why is it that every time I write about this and mention that humans have an influence on things the way no other animal has , and does things no other animal does  people start laying  red herrings at my feet and try to shift the goal posts ?  very curious !

 

I am not talking or didnt mention any of that .  I even directly mentioned the building of ocean liners and satellites .  I was writing about what I wrote about , not that

What was you trying to get at then? 

1 minute ago, Nungali said:

 

 

Just curious if it is a matter of scale or nature, when it comes to experiences. 

1 hour ago, snowymountains said:

 

Well losing one's self in past time and places is actually one of these things that's aligned with psychoanalytic thought, see IFS or, better, object relations theory.

 

A part of us that's traumatised can drag us away from the here-and-now by surfacing thoughts and emotions from the there-and- then.

 

So in a sense that part is "lost" and needs to be integrated ( or "retrieved" ).

 

But tbh for this sort of work someone is better off seeing an analyst than a Shaman.

Appreciate the refferences. But part of me would prefer to do mushroom and play dums in the artic.

1 hour ago, snowymountains said:

I haven't looked into these versions of shamanism, I was aware of the 9 realms in some Norse cultures, I thought in Mongolia they only journey to the sky realms ( if I recall they believe there's an underworld too but don't journey there ) - but again, I haven't really dived into this, so could be wrong 

I am not confident on the spesifics either. I read in a book called «tracing old norse cosmology» that this, the world tree with 7 or 9 realms, was a common (or at least known) element of siberian cosmology and there might be a connection. Ultimatley tho, if we tried to reconstruct it we would be in for a hard time.

______
On soul:

yuch÷" peivrata ijwvn oujk a[n ejxeuvroio pa÷san ejpiporeuovmeno" oJdovn: ou{tw baqu;n lovgon e[cei.
A preliminary translation, based on the standard text, can be:

You will not find out the limits of the soul when you go, travelling on every road, so deep a logos 2 does it have.

«Consequently, the implication of the fragment is not that one will not find out the limits of the soul, even if one travels every road. It is rather the paradoxical message that only the one who travels every road will not find the limits of the soul. Travelling all these roads is not an idle and necessarily mistaken attempt, going in the wrong direction, as it were, but rather the precondition of having (a soul that has) a deep logos. It is because of one’s ‘travels’, one’s comprehensive experience and understanding of the world, that one’s logos (or the logos of one’s soul) has become so deep, and this is why one will never find the limits of the soul—only such a person will be aware of the limitless- ness of the soul. And at this point the syntactic ambiguity can take effect: you can also become that person.»

https://www.academia.edu/383189/The_Limits_of_the_Soul_Heraclitus_B45_Its_text_and_interpretation

Is it not a bit of a paradox to be in conflict with one self? «loosing your soul»

2 hours ago, snowymountains said:

upper/middle/lower

This reminds me very much of Asgard, Midgard and Udgard. Gard meaning «fence» or «enclosed area.» The fortress of the gods surrounded by the of men, middle earth, once again surrounded by monsters, trolls and other… forces of chaos out in the utgard, beyond the fence: the unknown and foreign.

2 hours ago, snowymountains said:

 

The Sami are very interesting, there are a lot of academic papers on them on the web if you want to read about this topic.

 

When we retire, and have time for this sort of activity, we'd love to spend some time with them, as well as with other shamanic cultures, if we get a chance to 🤞.

My partner actually had spent some time with them in the distant past. Their shamans considered her to be a ..shaman and perhaps in a sense she is.

 

Western neo shamanism though is a completely different thing, imo at best it's simply not worth it.

 

An interesting nugget is that their upper/middle/lower world cosmologies is shared with some Lakota tribes at the other side of the pond ( not all shamanic cultures share cosmologies, unlike western neo Shamanism claims ).

It is very interresting. What do you think was lmplied by shaman, in her context?

Another fun commonality between northren Eurasia and some native americans is the world, or shaman, tree. The fancy term being axis mundi (central pillar). One of the names of the world tree is Yggdrasil (Odins horse, or litterally: horse of the terrible one). Similarities between norse and to siberian "shaman" world trees (where the shaman travels between the 7 or 9 realms)

.

The world tree with an eagle at the top and a serpent gnawing at its roots, and my favorite creature, the squirrel ratatoskr running up and down transmitting insults between them. 

Shamanism, in essence, is about sending ones soul out on a journey to contact spirits, is it not? You know a thing or two about shamanism? It is enchanting for sure, would be fascinating to participate in an authentic shamanic ritual. But maybe that's lost to time...

A sami shaman drum from the 1700s. A culture witch, I think, we know to little about and so much of its traditions are hammered out of them. Each drum carry an unique motif, resembling the personality of the drummer, their map of the spirit realm and their personal journey trough it. Beaten rhytmatically til a state of trance is achieved. One fun, but maybe not very PC fact, is that they traditionally drank the urine of reindeer who had fly agaric (the red mushroom with white spots) for a more intense... "enchantment."

Red and white, ladies and gentlemen, the colours of Christmas from the well known genius marketing move by coke less then a century ago. Depicting the story of a Christian saint from anatolia who flies around the heavens with the help of magic reindeers and delivers gifts under a sacred tree around the winter solstice. 

_____________

Not to be mistaken for sami music, it is faraoese, but I think the drums, lyrics, voice and... "hysterical noises" in the nicest possible meaning of the word sets the tone:

On 20.6.2024 at 2:35 AM, Nungali said:

What I am interested in is that quality of 'soul' that (supposedly ) defines us as different from all the other animals . Now, I can  believe animals have a 'soul' under some definitions, but it is VERY OBVIOUS ( I have had arguments against this presented to me , but they are pretty useless and contradict the obvious )  that humans do things no other animal does ( I put emphasis on 'do' as we can observe the facts , instead of the postulations and assumptions behind a lot of these differences  , ie.  other animals do not build ocean liners or satellites , etc .- its an 'anthropological concept of 'soul '  '

Surley humans are unique, but who is not? Anyway, I am not going to disagree with you, and I don't think you would disagree that animals like elephants are pretty complex. I do not know where awareness begins or where it ends, if it ends, but god is it an interesting question. 

On 20.6.2024 at 2:35 AM, Nungali said:

Where do we start ? I cant think of an earlier system than the  Ancient Egyptian .  ( I will go through mostly the western concepts , I am not big on eastern philosophy and I hope some posters that are will continue to contribute those concept

. Dispute between man and his soul (or Ba, to be precise). Dated to between 2000-1700bc, middle kingdom. It is a very good read, but I am far to ignorant to comment on the egyptian perception of ba or soul. Does not take away from the beauty, tragic and poetic nature of the writing tho... Do you think the concept of a soul or something similar is simply innate, based on the assumption that awareness or life force or what to call it, must be eternal?

On 20.6.2024 at 2:35 AM, Nungali said:

They vary  ( some 5, some 7 )  but I will focus on the 9 level  concept .

What is up with the number 9? 7 I have heard is related to the planets, but nine I do not know, all though it keep on reaccuring in myth and legends. 

On 20.6.2024 at 2:35 AM, Nungali said:

The Ba  is often translated as 'soul'  - it seems to link the spiritual and material worlds ; the afterlife and the corpse . " Each ba was linked to a particular body, and the ba would hover over the corpse after death but could also travel to the afterlife, visit with the gods, or return to earth to those places the person had loved in life. " ^3.  The corpse had to reunite with the ka each night in order for the ka to receive sustenance, and it was the job of the ba to accomplish this. ^4.

There we go, thank you. It would be foolish for me to comment on your writings as I am as knowledgeable about the subject as I am of qauntom physics, but it is very interesting. 

_______________________________

You briefly mentioned tombs. I think burial customs is a topic that could shed some light on this subject (on what a soul or a spirit is). From what I have heard, hunter gatherers in Britain left their dead out in nature. In much of the world we have rite of committal, ""Earth to earth, ashes to ashes, dust to dust." There are way to many customs to go trough them all, but one image I find particualary beautiful is the Irish Tir Na Nog, "far over the green meadows of the waters where the horses of Lir have their pastures." Wiki:

In the tale, Oisín (a human hero) and Niamh (a woman of the Otherworld) fall in love. She brings him to Tír na nÓg on a magical horse that can travel over water. After spending what seems to be three years there, Oisín becomes homesick and wants to return to Ireland. Niamh reluctantly lets him return on the magical horse, but warns him never to touch the ground. When he returns, he finds that 300 years have passed in Ireland. Oisín falls from the horse. He instantly becomes elderly, as the years catch up with him, and he quickly dies of old age.[6]

"So when evening comes and I silently go aboard

And my lifeboat is lowered into six feet of earth

I sail west in the sea

to Mary McKear in The green Tir na Noir" 

In some cultures the ocean or water seems to be connected with the other or underworld, am I right? A portal of sorts? 

In Vedbæk, Denmark, 6000 years ago, a young woman was laid to rest beside a baby, with the dead infant placed upon a swan’s wing.

"Grave 8, the most famous of the burials, contains a young woman, who may have died at childbirth, and a premature baby. The symbolism of the baby on the swan wing has been much debated with suggestions including purity and the ability of a water bird to transcend water, land and air. Certainly both bodies were cared for in death (the disorderly state of the mother’s ribs suggest that she may have been resting on an organic ‘pillow’), which suggests a belief that the spirit remained with the body."

https://www.dailygrail.com/2016/11/a-baby-was-buried-upon-a-swans-wing-in-denmark-6000-years-ago/

I know you are having a laugh, but in one way it is interresting: why do we describe art as «alive,» «soulfull,» «full of spirit.» etc?

@Nungali do you think the western mind underwent a drastic shift after ww2, going from «the white mans burden» and Europe being the gift to the world, universe and God himself, to people thinking: what is this mess? What is so great about this supposed superior culture that flattens entire city to the ground with one nuke?

4 minutes ago, Maddie said:

 

The question of all questions lol

According to the Norwegian encyclopedia it is the simplest question in the world:

"The self is a central and unique aspect of human personality, characterized by the individual's organized and enduring experiences of their own identity."

But obviously, there are many views, that all seem culturally dependend. You have mentioned the daoist one. The Christian soul. The norse four aspects of the self. The jungian self. And many more that I am ignorant of.

I dont want to derail the thread, maybe ill make a seperate one. But here on daobums «the self» is often discussed. What is the self, in Your estimation?

Is the daoist understanding of self as considering of two parts comparable to the jungian? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self_in_Jungian_psychology

17 hours ago, Nungali said:

wind and breath are commonly related to life force ;  are they still breathing ? is 'wind' (moving air ) coming out their mouth .

Looking forward to the «third part» of the self. Honestly the spirit soul thing is a little… confusing. And yeah, about the qouted part, it makes sense, no? That breath and air got interpeted at that witch charactarize the living, and therefore «gives birth» in a sense?

4 hours ago, Nintendao said:

Within most daoist frameworks, the soul is subdivided into yang and yin aspects of hun魂 and po魄. The hun is sometimes considered as detachable and can visit the heavens. It is one of the first things to become visible with the third eye. At least parts of it anyway. Like how when looking at the aurora borealis, it's not the earth's magnetic field itself that is being seen, but rather energized gases being held in place by it. The po soul is less mobile and can be perceived from deep within yin stage consciousness.

 

Spirit on the other hand is what they call shen神. That is branching into more wholly non-local domains such as of gods.

 

It is nice to hear what its like in (what im assuming is) your cultural background. I like to compare it to others, and find both the similiarities and points of difference interrresting.

Apperantly the norse didnt have a word for soul before christianity. The self was divided in four parts:

Quote

 

Hamr (pronounced like the English word “hammer”) literally translates to “shape” or “skin.” (…) The Old Norse phrase that denotes the process of shapeshifting is skipta hömum, “changing hamr,” and the quality of being able to perform this feat is called hamramr, “of strong hamr.”[2] 
 

Hugr can be most satisfactorily translated as “thought” or “mind.” It corresponds to someone’s personality and conscious cognitive processes, and therefore overlaps considerably with what we today would call someone’s “inner self.”[3]

The hugr generally stays within its “owner,” but can at times create effects in faraway people just by thinking about them in a certain way. This is particularly possible for people who are described as having an exceptionally strong hugr.[4]

 

The Fylgja
Remember the cats, ravens, and other familiar spirits who are often the companions of witches in European folktales? These are fylgjur (pronounced “FILG-yur”) in the plural and fylgja (pronounced “FILG-ya”) in the singular. The fylgja is generally perceived in an animal form by those with second sight, although human fylgjur aren’t unheard-of. It’s an attendant spirit whose well-being is intimately tied to that of its owner – for example, if the fylgja dies, its owner dies, too

The fourth and final part of the Norse self that we’ll consider here is the hamingja (pronounced “HAHM-ing-ya”). The word is often used in an abstract sense to signify “luck,”[6]but the Norse understanding of luck is very different from our own. In Bettina Sommer’s fitting words, “luck was a quality inherent in the man and his lineage, a part of his personality similar to his strength, intelligence, or skill with weapons, at once both the cause and the expression of the success, wealth, and power of a family.”[7]

 

Hamingja (luck) is the reason we stuff like a person IS lucky (as a personal trait), rather then something that happen to them. It is also why we say the luck has run out, allthough in the norse mind that phrase might have been literal.

What ive read by Neil Price disagree with what is said about fylgja (guardian spirit). He describes it as a desceased female ancestor always watching over you.

Odin was a master of magic and could shapeshift and send his «spirit» out on a journey. He wasnt always a nice guy, so in one of the poems he threatened a layman doing the same thing with leaving him in the astral realm for eternity, unable to return to his body.

————

On another note, where does the word soul come from? The web wasnt to good help here. Wonder if it might be related to sol? (The word for sun in many indo euro languages. I think the proto word for sol is seul).

To me, it is rather simple: soul is the essence of who YOU are and resides inside you. A spirit is more of a wandering entity not tied to person. A ghost or a demon are spirits, not souls. An aware, biological being contains a soul. But, that is my take. What is yours?
 

I am not sure how helpfull this is, but it is fun. Still, ill put it in a spoiler in case some find it tideous:

6 minutes ago, Nungali said:

 

I think the opposite would do a better job :

 

" This is your one and only life ."

But it is kind of the same thing, as the eternal return is living the exact same Life over and over again. So would you be comfortable with the way you living, If you knew you had to experience the exavt same way for eternity

2 minutes ago, Nungali said:

 

WEll .... I understood the duck

Well, it is basically the same thing going on as in Your short story

@Nungali haha fun read, self made?

You might not understand thw language, but I think youll see the parallell 

edit: english subtitles avalaible   Nevermind, those made no sense

Friedrich Nietzsche's concept of eternal recurrence  expressed in "The Gay Science" (§341):

"What, if some day or night a demon were to steal after you into your loneliest loneliness and say to you: 'This life as you now live it and have lived it, you will have to live once more and innumerable times more; and there will be nothing new in it, but every pain and every joy and every thought and sigh and everything unutterably small or great in your life will have to return to you, all in the same succession and sequence—even this spider and this moonlight between the trees, and even this moment and I myself. The eternal hourglass of existence is turned upside down again and again, and you with it, speck of dust!'"

If this doesnt inspire you to live fully, I do not kmow what will.

24 minutes ago, silent thunder said:

ccording to those who congregate and decide what doctrines/dogma that comprises)

And nobody but yourself has that authority 

In the beginning was Logos, and Logos was with God, and Logos was God.
The same was in the beginning with God.
All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

(Jews are not known for liking Jesus or gentiles, historically speaking).

But hopefully someone can give you a better explanation.

@Nungali

On old Europe: yeah, I get the aeons are symbolic and not literally based on old Europe. Allthough probally not as egalitarian, matriarchal and peacefull as previously told, they definitley seem more that compared to early IE.

On hierachy, I found this statement on the varna culture (modern day Bulgaria) enlightening:

Quote

"Varna is the oldest cemetery yet found where humans were buried with abundant golden ornaments. … The weight and the number of gold finds in the Varna cemetery exceeds by several times the combined weight and number of all of the gold artifacts found in all excavated sites of the same millenium, 5000-4000 BC, from all over the world, including Mesopotamia and Egypt. … Three graves contained gold objects that together accounted for more than half of the total weight of all gold grave goods yielded by the cemetery. A scepter, symbol of a supreme secular or religious authority, was discovered in each of these three graves.

(Slavchev 2010)[10]

The burnt houses thing is intruiging, will take a deeper look one day.

@Nungali said:

Quote

Anyway ,   they are just ideas  , Crowley's where based on what was current at the time  and the sciences have moved on a long way from there .  I think the main point is we ARE in an age of individuality and conflict  and 'western civ' seems to have isolated the extended family unit  ... which is the basic stable base from primates  ... which we are .

 100%

Quote

Okay , but still ... what happens if you ask it  " Are you sure about that "?

It would reevaluate and either correct it self or give a more detailed explanation. I generally ask for sources, and with the + version it will search the internett a provide them for you. Some of them might be bs, but at least you got the oppurtunity to find Out If its true or not, fairly easily.

On your last post I am not sure I understood everything, but it was beautifull. The part and images following the divine twins and arrival of the new gods I very much liked. And the poem hit close to home. Harsh as the past was, I feel a little nostalgic about it, and belive a lot of their cultural aspects are admirable. Still tho, I would def not like to be on the reciving side