Sir Darius the Clairvoyent

9 minutes ago, Zhongyongdaoist said:

The whole problem with this topic is that it is based on the flimsiest speculation which is then elaborated on in ways that are anachronistic and largely ignorant of what was going on in Judea and the larger Jewish world during the period that Jesus lived.  I have made a lot of posts about the period and I will do some searching and pull them together for posting here.  I am busy today, but I should have something to say by tomorrow.

 

ZYD

Looking forward to it, could br very interresting

41 minutes ago, Maddie said:

 

That very well might have been his personal understanding, but it was not the historical understanding of the Church throughout the millennia. It also does not seem to be what Jesus himself taught.  

 

John 14:6 "Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."

 

The theologist then seem to be more compassionate than the all compassionate and all loving Christian god somehow. 

My very uneducated opinion on this. I do not belive that Jesus thought he was God, and i belive that son of God refers to humanity and not Jesus in particular. Christ comes from the Greek word χριστός (chrīstós), meaning "anointed one.» «The word became flesh» Jesus is the logos incarnate. It is about accepting the spirit of his teachings, as opposed to the old testament, that lead to salvation and heaven (metaphorically speaking).

You know what the only unforgivable sin is? Sin against the holy ghost, the spark of divinity within you.

The New law:

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In his Summa Theologiae I–II qq. 106–9, a section of the Summa known as the Treatise on Law, Saint Thomas Aquinas discusses the Law of Christ as the "New Law". He argues that it was virtually contained in the Old Law, that is the Old Testament, as a seed but only brought to perfection by Jesus Christ who perfectly fulfilled it. The ends of the Old and New are one and the same, being subjection to God's order, but they are different in that the New Law makes attaining the end possible. Meanwhile, since all law ultimately has reference to Divine Reason governing all things, the New Law contains and helps the human being fulfill the Natural Lawwhich prescribes acts of virtue. Thus, Aquinas defines the New Law as "chiefly the grace itself of the Holy Ghost, which is given to those who believe in Christ," but adds that it also "contains certain things that dispose us to receive the grace of the Holy Ghost, and pertaining to the use of that grace." Therefore, "the New Law is in the first place a law that is inscribed on our hearts, but that secondarily it is a written law". (ST I-II q. 106.3)^[4]

The Catholic theologian Bernhard Häringpresents the Law of Christ as Christ himself in his person because Jesus was able to fulfill the law and provide us with the effect of this fulfillment.^[5]

The Evangelical theologian Douglas J. Mooargues that "the law of Christ" is strongly connected to the Mosaic Law, for example that nine of the Ten Commandments are included.^[6]

George R. Law argues that the New Covenant is the Law of Christ, and that the details are expressed in the Sermon on the Mount.^[7]

 

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_Christ

The evil creator:

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Description

This book examines the origins of the evil creator idea chiefly in light of early Christian biblical interpretations. It is divided into two parts. In Part I, the focus is on the interpretations of Exodus and John. Firstly, ancient Egyptian assimilation of the Jewish god to the evil deity Seth-Typhon is studied to understand its reapplication by Phibionite and Sethian Christians to the Judeo-catholic creator. Secondly, the Christian reception of John 8:44 (understood to refer to the devil's father) is shown to implicate the Judeo-catholic creator in murdering Christ. Part II focuses on Marcionite Christian biblical interpretations. It begins with Marcionite interpretations of the creator's character in the Christian "Old Testament," analyzes 2 Corinthians 4:4 (in which "the god of this world" blinds people from Christ's glory), examines Christ's so-called destruction of the Law (Eph 2:15) and the Lawgiver, and shows how Christ finally succumbs to the "curse of the Law" inflicted by the creator (Gal 3:13). A concluding chapter shows how still today readers of the Christian Bible have concluded that the creator manifests an evil character

 

2 minutes ago, silent thunder said:

Whats strange about that? A jewish «rebel» with a following and unique set of teachings likley did excist, but it is also clear that NT is filled with greek philosophy, mystery tradition, sun worship, mithras and so on..

1 minute ago, Maddie said:

The fact that we as human beings can pick out the good bits from the bad bits means that we have a better moral compass than god and therefore god is not that great after all. 

What do you mean by god? Is it a tribal god (Thor, Yahwe, aztec sun god etc.), a platonic God, like the Christian concept of divinity or is it maybe nature or the universe?

And where does Christ talk about slavery?

General question: this website is really slow for me today, but my internett is perfectly fine. Any others experiencing similar?

39 minutes ago, snowymountains said:

 

That message wasn't the core teaching before Jesus, the Roman/Greek Gods were more coersive that Jesus' God, who was more compassionate.

Well, Jesuses platonic/monist view of God stands in stark contrast to the jewish god, Yahwe.

7 minutes ago, Maddie said:

 

Most historians and scholars believe that the man existed but was heavily mythologized. 

Agree 100%. But much of his none violence teachings i belive is historical, as this was written in a time where the jews constantly rebeled against the romans, and the romans slaughtered them in return. That led to some adopting a pascifist attitude, as a way to rebel without getting killed

16 minutes ago, Maddie said:

 

This was being taught before Jesus. 

 

Can you give a specific example of something that Jesus taught that was new, revolutionary AND changed the world?

I think i can, espacially considering it in how it goes against the jewish tradition he grew up in:

Gnostic gospel of Thomas compared with the canonical once:

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1. GT saying 2: Let him who seeks continue seeking until he finds. When he finds he will become troubled. When he becomestroubled he will become astonished and he will rule over the all."

Matthew 7:7-11: Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. For everyone who asks, receives, and everyone who searches, finds, and for everyone who knocks, the door will be opened.

2. GT saying 72: A man said to him, "Tell my brothers to divide my father's possessions with me." He said to him, "O man, who has made me a divider?" He said to his disciples, "I am not a divider, am I?"

Luke 12: 13-14: Someone in the crowd said to him, "Teacher, tell my brother to divide the family inheritance with me." But he said to him, "Friend, who set me to be a judge or arbitator over you?" And he said to them, "Take care! Be on your guard against all kinds of greed; for one's life does not consist in abundance of possessions."

3. GT saying 113: His disciples said to him, "When will the kingdom come?" Jesus said, "It will not come by waiting for it. It will not be a matter of saying 'Here it is' or 'There it is'. Rather, the kingdom of the father is spread out upon the earth, and people do not see it."

Luke 12:20-21: Once, Jesus was asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God was coming, and he answered, "The kingdom of God is not coming with things that can be observed; nor will they say, 'Look, here it is!' or 'There it is!'. For in fact, the kingdom of God is among you.

5. GT saying 3: The Kingdom is inside you, and outside you. When you come to know yourselves, then you will be known, and you will realize it is you who are the sons of the living Father.

John 14:6-7: No one comes to the Father except through me. If you know me, you will know my Father.

6. GT saying 50: If they say to you, "Where did you come from?" say to them, "We came from the light, the place where the light came into being by itself, and was revealed through their image. . . We are its children, the chosen of the living Father."

John 8: 12-13: Jesus spoke to them, saying, "I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness but will have the light of life."

7. GT saying 70: That which you have will save you if you bring it forth from yourselves. That which you do not have within you will kill you if you do not have it within you.

John 1:9-13: [Jesus] is the true light, which enlightens everyone . . . To all who received him, he gave the power to become children of God, who were born, not of blood . . .but of God.

https://www2.kenyon.edu/Depts/Religion/Fac/Suydam/Reln225/GospelThomas.htm

on the trinity/monism

«i and the father is one»

«I am the alpha and omega»

«Holiness, as taught in the Scriptures, is not based upon knowledge on our part. Rather, it is based upon the resurrected Christ in-dwelling us and changing us into His likeness»

A.W. Tozer

«In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God» (NB: replace the word «word» with logos, witch is what was used in the original gospel. It translates to Word or speech, yes, but has a whole different meaning as well: some sort of universal reason/nature.

Sermon of the mount:

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Eye for Eye

38 “You have heard that it was said, ‘Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.’[a] 39 But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to them the other cheek also.40 And if anyone wants to sue you and take your shirt, hand over your coat as well. 41 If anyone forces you to go one mile, go with them two miles. 42 Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you.

Love for Enemies

43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46 If you love those who love you, what reward will you get?Are not even the tax collectors doing that?47 And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

 

matthew 5 and 6
 

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5 “And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by others. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward in full. 6 But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.7 And when you pray, do not keep on babblinglike pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words. 8 Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you needbefore you ask him.

9 “This, then, is how you should pray:

“‘Our Father in heaven,
hallowed be your name,
10 your kingdom come,
your will be done,
    on earth as it is in heaven.
11 Give us today our daily bread.
12 And forgive us our debts,
    as we also have forgiven our debtors.
13 And lead us not into temptation,[a]
    but deliver us from the evil one.’

14 For if you forgive other people when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. 15 But if you do not forgive others their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins.

 

 

28 “And why do you worry about clothes? See how the flowers of the field grow. They do not labor or spin. 29 Yet I tell you that not even Solomon in all his splendor was dressed like one of these. 30 If that is how God clothes the grass of the field, which is here today and tomorrow is thrown into the fire, will he not much more clothe you—you of little faith? 31 So do not worry, saying, ‘What shall we eat?’ or ‘What shall we drink?’ or ‘What shall we wear?’ 32 For the pagans run after all these things, and your heavenly Father knows that you need them.33 But seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well. 34 Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own.

 

 

John 8:

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3And the scribes and Pharisees brought unto him a woman taken in adultery; and when they had set her in the midst, 4they say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act. 5Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou? 6This they said, tempting him, that they might have to accuse him. But Jesus stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground, as though he heard them not. 7So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.  8And again he stooped down, and wrote on the ground.

 

 

his last words on the cross: father, forgive them, for they know not what they do.

And cor 3:14

But their minds were made dull, for to this day the same veil remains when the old covenant is read. It has not been removed, because only in Christ is it taken away.

Back to Jesus. Jesus in India? I doubt it. But that the Jesus Persona was influenced by myths like that of Mithras for example, i think  an indirect connection is not to far fetched

Btw, i was TOLD once by a Norwegian hindu, that the best way to understand norse Paganism was by getting familiar with hinduism, as in their earlier forms they would have been fairly closely connected, all euro pagan tradition have been exterminated and the few sources we have from the late medival.

swatzika, the wheel etc was common symbolism in both cultures. Jul is what we call the winter solstice for example, whitch means wheel. The word for wheel are cognates in every single indo-euro language. 
 

Trundholm sun chariot, 1500-1300 bce:

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The Trundholm sun chariot (Danish: Solvognen) is a Nordic Bronze Age artifact discovered in Denmark. It is a representation of the  sun chariot, a bronze statue of a horse and a large bronze disk, which are placed on a device with spoked wheels.

further more we have a good amount do evidence of europeans in south and central Asia, and when you look at heraclits philosophy i think it is pretty buddhist, and they would have been around at the exact same time.

It is at least very likley that the pre Christian and muslim populations of Persia and Europe enganged in it. The Sufis, for example. Some ambient structures that seem to be made for the ambience and making mantras. And for many, prayer is a form for meditations as well. Greagorian chants could maybe also be considered mediatqtion? Or maybe just sitting alone on a mountain top, watching the landscape in silence, witch is a very popular activity in my part of the world.

And findings like the osaberg Buddha:

Found in the osaberg ship burial from the 8th century i belive (Norway).

One of the more famous works from the roman times, is the diary of emperor Aurialies. It was given the tittle meditations when discovered and published. Reason being that "Meditation" means inner reflection or thought. Maybe not the exact same as the eastern version, but i see similarities.

21 hours ago, Daniel said:

"The jews are cursed nine times"

You got two pages of polite explanation, and you respond to none of it. I probally shouldnt bother getting involved in this, as nothing could change your mind, but If a text says curses the jews nine times you can fairly conclude that they dont have the friendliest attitude towards the people they are cursing, right. 
 

I understand that there are a long history and political situation that might make this a hot-topic, but come on…

it is clear that you dont ever change your mind, and are not acctually having an open attitude and a willingness to learn. I think you should apologies to Vanja, but i know you wont… youll just keep on wasting others time with word salads
 

You are doing a great job, @Vajra Mind. It i not often you see these topics discussed openly by people with understanding of the faith. I belive that the lack of open discussion is a way bigger danger then any text or religion itself.

1 minute ago, Dainin said:

 

Many of the perpetrators of those atrocities claimed to be followers of Christ's teachings and many believed they were acting on his behalf. If you think he is peaceful and tolerant, read the Book of Revelation.

 

There are some Christian groups who are tolerant and peaceful, for example Quakers, Hutterites, etc. The majority are not. What is the point of peaceful teachings when the actions of the followers of these teachings are extremely hateful and violent, not just to non-believers but also between different denominations of Christianity?

Listen, point is, that yes violence is undeniable. So is the evils commited by the church. But trying to compare the message of christ to that of the torah or Muhammed, is dishonest to the point of being funny. Humans are capable of evil, no doubt. Christians as, of course. Jews and muslims can be 100% cool and chill, but the values of the faith are pretty much total opposites of that of christ.

27 minutes ago, Dainin said:

 

If you don't think Christianity is intolerant please take a moment to consider the Crusades, Spanish Inquisition, Transatlantic slave trade, burning of "witches", genocide of indigenous populations in the Americas and Australia, Holocaust, etc., etc.

I do not belive the teachings of christ are violent, on the contrary acctually. Human history is bloody no doubt, but Jesus… a really chill fellow

I agree, i genuinley belives he has a good hearth, but constantly being told to educate yourself and being in complete denial on certain topics, does Get frustating 

6) accuses everyone of bias but never admits to being wrong

7) triggered by Buddha 

11 hours ago, Daniel said:

see that the Quran is not as harsh

I dont doubt that for a second

7 minutes ago, Nungali said:

 

And everyone    else   ( except Daniel    )

 

 

 

4 minutes ago, Daniel said:

 

The Quran is not any more "anti-jewish" than the hebrew bible.  The quotes that have been brought are not "hateful".  They are rebuke.  Whether or not Islam is more or less anti-jewish than christianity is debatable, but, also off-topic since the topic is the Quran.

Guess it depends on what culture and millenia you are from. From most of the modern worlds perspective it is pretty fed up to order a man to sacrifice his child, kill animal because Yahwe finds it funny or tax infidiels until you can convert them by sword. Chosen people, gentiles and destroying everyone when you feel like it is pretty nazi as welll.

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And, it's not lost on me that you're actually making judgements about me as well, but, I do not value those judgements.

It is really not. I am not going to pretend that i dont find the torah and quran very untastefull, but im not used to people basing their identity around… well, stories

Just now, Daniel said:

 

If you don''t know judaism, and you don't know Islam, what are you talking about?  

You just qouted me about of intolerant and hatefull and primitive verses from the torah yourself (it is a reason it is called the old testament). I am not even Christian, but i dont see why Your go to response to murder snd jizra would be: but we are even more hatefull.

3 minutes ago, Daniel said:

the Old Testament, you don't know that the hebrew bible is much much harsher towards the disbelieving jews than the Quran.

Thats the point, two very intolerant religions

1 minute ago, Daniel said:

 

@NaturaNaturans,

 

Please see above.  This is on-topic.  The Quran asserts that Jesus was teaching Torah.  It's repeated twice for emphasis.

 

They also assert that the only even somewhat tolarable disbislivers are the christisns so… I do not understand why you go to such length trying to defend the most anti jewish religion in history. 
 

Then, when the sacred months are drawn away, slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them, and lie in wait for them at every place of ambush. (9:5, “verse of the sword”)

And:

Fight those who believe not in God and the Last Day and do not forbid what God and His Messenger have forbidden – such men as practice not the religion of truth, being of those who have been given the Book — until they pay the tribute out of hand and have been humbled. (9:29, “verse of jizya”)

but then again, judaism and islam is quite similar, so maybe thats why

3 minutes ago, Daniel said:

That's an opinion which, to the best of my knowledge, is not supported in any way in the Christian bible.

okay, this is just a short selection,  but it gives you are pretty good sense of christianities view on the jewish faith. Sorry, but it is what it is:

 

You could say that «the sorces are bad,» and acadenics doesnt allways know what they are talking about. And that is true, but that goes for jews aswell