Sir Darius the Clairvoyent

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Posts posted by Sir Darius the Clairvoyent

  2. Posted

    25 minutes ago, Thrice Daily said:

    Wow, nice intro. One word that sprang to mind was Water 💦 

     

    I understood it was the same as spoken by legit Gypsies as it were in India.

     

    this was my very first introduction to something seemingly unconnected being connected many years back… 

     

    Wiki says, Romani word, English translation, Etymology. pani, water, Sanskrit pānīya (पानीय), compare Hindi pānī (पानी), Nepali (पानी)

     

    What I find interesting is the facial expression ad actual feeling of sound created, superimposed onto situations when water would be life saving, often often the first word spoken between people…

     

    particularly travellers, it’s eye opening 👁 

    The various terms for soul in germanic languages like wise come from ocean.

  4. Posted

    11 minutes ago, Thrice Daily said:

    you guys are in the EU aren’t you? 

    No, to rich for that shit 😎;)

     

    »how close are you to sweden»

    identical. Norway, sweden and denmark decided to unite but germany threathened war, so we backed down. 1800s something. Scandinavianism it is called.


    Gold you say?

    Scandinavia is overflowing with sacrifised gold pieces and weapons. Like this one, depicting Odin sacrifising his eye for wisdom:

    IMG_3332.jpeg.fafb1982a7b5f6ca783ce22fccc795e2.jpeg

    (all the germanic tribes originate here, so when they returned from rome they brought it back here. And thew it in the ocean haha).
     

    i like native americans as well. Been in a relationship with one as well as lived with a tribe in the Amazon.

     

    boat burials, funeral fires and burial mounds? All over the place, but long ago now. Google osaberg ship burial for one of the more spectacular one. The osaberg Buddha is also very curious.

     

     

     

     

     

  5. Posted · Edited by Sir Darius the Clairvoyent

    3 minutes ago, Thrice Daily said:

    I’ve been to Kyoto, it was my favourite city , and Osaka close by.

     

    I think they thought me a little crazy doing my Qigong everywhere I went. Luckily I didn’t end up fighting, although I did have the opportunity presented to me… Cor that may have triggered an adventure or an early death. Hehe… 

     

    I was there in Japan for only one month, I wish it were longer. 
     

    You know a women left the train, because she got confused when she was talking to me. I asked her a question and she misunderstood and walked off.

     

    I head off down some steps, and she came running after me to give me the right information. She realised and came smiling with her hands in prayer fashion and bowing as she continued to answer my question… 

     

    it was very important to her…

     

    She was only the Train Driver!!! or head conductor!!! wasn't she, and it was that important that she left the train to finish giving my help.

     

    I’ll never forget that 💜 

    Haha it is so alien to me. I didnt react because i couldnt decide between 😂 and ❤️. I guess its both haha

     

    edit: the japanese person told me that Norway and Japan was very similar, only that Japan took it to the extreme. I think it has to do with how we behave in public etc. trust and so on., cleanliness..

  6. Posted

    5 minutes ago, Thrice Daily said:

    It’s all very interesting. I’m with you in many many ways…

     

    I think small pockets of people anywhere in the world with naturally develop ways that support them and resonate with their environment, landscapes and seasons in very very unique ways…

     

    But… I still say Christianity AT ITS VERY CORE, is totally compatible with every single other “way” of being on the planet. At any time period.

     

    And it is, whether called Christian nature or by another name. I can’t let go of that… 

     

    But the way it was spread, interpreted and adapted to push power is about as unchristian as it gets. 
     

    I’ve said for a long time, the true value in any local place is to deep deep into local customer try to re discover it (it shouldn’t have been smashed I agree with you) 

    Possibly. It is hard to hate on christ. I am looking forward to taking a deeper look into gnosticism.

    • Like 1

  7. Posted · Edited by Sir Darius the Clairvoyent

    @Thrice Daily

     

    Another curious thing to consider. What happened when the anglo saxons arrived in England? They abbandonded Christ in a heart beat in favour for the old gods. Something similar happened when the Vikings arrived in Ireland. 
     

    Curiously, the most remote part of Europe didnt accept Christ until they were burned on alive somewhere in the 15/1600s. Arguebly not even then. Åsatro (Ås = aesir/gods, tro = faith) remains the largest faith in Iceland to this very day. Wonder why.

  8. Posted

    2 minutes ago, Thrice Daily said:

    Well I’m a work in progress.

    Arent we all? Or maybe we are already great, just have to wash away the layers of dirt…

     

    on another note, did you know that christmas was banned in England somewhere in the 1600s for being to pagan?

    IMG_3331.jpeg.07b4fc6c9cef07ce03abfc4fac60eecd.jpeg

    funny how men dressed in the colour of the red and white mushroom, the goat and the evergreen plants keep popping up…

     

    «Funny the Chinese, I like them almost as much as the French. As perculiar as they may seem to us Brits, I like them all the same…»

     

    I spent some time with this japanese girl this summer. She showed me this:

     

    With every step we take, Kyoto to the bay
    Strollin' so casually
    We're different and the same, gave you another name
    Switch up the batteries
     

  9. Posted

    Tell me people, here in Norway, for basically every appropiated pagan holyday, we light a huge bond fire. It strikes me as very pagan. Is this the custom in your countries too?IMG_3330.jpeg.1fffaec6d78aa8837fe3b4cef42989c2.jpeg

     

    not to mention how we were taught in elementary school that the christmas tree was an invention in 1800s germany… good lord we have been brain washed.

  10. Posted

    3 minutes ago, Thrice Daily said:

    I didn’t speak badly you did that…

     

    No it’s a more modern problem I think that comes down to access (porn at fingertips, drugs in the mail, etc) and too much idle time.

     

    No I agree, I think the ancients had much more in the right place with regards to indulgence. 
     

    Sex is an interesting topic re Christianity, old times, mono/poly, and all the ramifications of the times and places) that may be a good aspect to open up later, but maybe we should save the best till last with that one. I’ve got some cracking viewpoints brewing…

     

    Hey Thankyou for the invitation by the way. I really appreciate it ❤️ and one day who knows. Thanks, you’re great..🙏 

    You seem like a good guy, Ill give you that.

  11. Posted

    Here is how it happened in Orkney:

     

    According to the Orkneyinga saga, the Northern Isles had been Christianised by King Olaf Tryggvasson in 995 when he stopped at South Walls on his way from Ireland to Norway. The King summoned jarl Sigurd and said "I order you and all your subjects to be baptised. If you refuse, I'll have you killed on the spot and I swear I will ravage every island with fire and steel." Unsurprisingly, Sigurd agreed and the islands became Christian at a stroke.[42]However, when the sagas were written down Orkney had been Christian for 200 years or more[43] and the conversion tale itself has been described as "blatantly unhistorical".[44]Some have argued that when the Norse arrived in the Northern Isles they would have found organised Christianity already thriving there, although there is no mention of this at all in the sagas.[44]
     

    As I am not an historian, I should probally refrain from commentig on the the second half, but I do not buy it. Paganism survived a long time after the offical (read: kings) conversation.

     

    Additional note: the version of christ that was sold to the germanic people was not the Christ of the bible. It was more akin to some warrior god… «white-christ.»

    • Like 1

  12. Posted

    35 minutes ago, Thrice Daily said:

    By Debauchery I mean - excessive indulgence in sex, alcohol, or drugs.

     

    Moderation may be possible for some which is probably fine… 

     

    I use the word probably with caution. 
    Access is more the issue I’d say… whoever thought the word Telegram would become cool again B) 

    Before you speak badly about indulgence, id like to invite you to a jul/christmas here in the far north. Drink and eat all you want, the finest qaulity food, friends and family and gift giving. Whats not to like? Kind of reminds me of Valhalla in a way, the hall were the mead and meat never ends.

     

    but that is for celebration. Watching porn seven times a day is probally not very healthy.


    «

    There is so much mixed in. From the old tribal points of the Germanic and Nordic peoples of old,,, how did the children feel when they looked at the spoils of war return. Bag upon bag of blood spattered gold?

     

    Can you imagine seeing the flickering flames of a fire reflecting back of a burnished ornament of Gold, as a teenage boy listening to the cheer of the men that Heroically made it back alive. Can you imagine the thought processes there?»

     

    Very much so. The sagas are full of them. How that relates to christianity tho, I do not comprehend. In fact, sounds very, very pagan to me. The kings who converted didnt acctually belive all that jass, that much is clear. They did it for power, money or under force.

     

    • Like 1

  13. Posted

    So, this is something I have pondered about. I think this is in large part while I struggle to understand the philosophy of the far east: that our languages differs so radically.

     

    Here is a list of the world largest families:

    World language families

    Indo-European. 2.562 billion. 44.78%

    Sino-Tibetan. 1.276 billion. 22.28%

    Niger-Congo. 358 million. 6.26%

    Afro-Asiatic. 340 million. 5.93%

    Austronesian. 312 million. 5.45%

    Dravidian. 222 million. 3.87%

    Altaic. 145 million. 2.53%

    Japanese. 123 million. 2.16%
     

    In the case of this forum, I assume the overwhelming majority belong to either indo-european or Sino-tibetan. In fact, 66% of the world does. What I want to discuss here, is how this forms our understanding of reality.

     

    As the only chinese word I know is Nǐ hǎo (I am not excagerariring, it really is) I will limit myself to talking about some indo european words and its realtion to spirituality. I hope, however, anyone familiar with other languages can share some of their knowledge.

     

    So lets look into some indo european concepts:

     

    breath and spirit 


    All the following word has or had the double meaning of breath and spirit:

    - Ånd or varations of it (scandinavia)

    - spiritus, mens, animus or anima (latin)

    - Pneuma (greek)

    - Geist (german)

    - spirit or mind (english)

    - Espirit (french)

    - Atman (sanskrit)

     

    Here comes the juiciest part, in my opinion. Atman is a direct cognate to ånd (mentioned above) as well as old english ǽþm and eþian, from where the modern english word breath comes from.

     

    Sacrifice

     

    «In the creation myth, the first man Manu and his giant twin Yemo are crossing the cosmos, accompanied by the primordial cow. To create the world, Manu sacrifices his brother and, with the help of heavenly deities (the Sky-Father, the Storm-God and the Divine Twins),[43][47] forges both the natural elements and human beings from his remains. Manu thus becomes the first priest after initiating sacrifice as the primordial condition for the world order, and his deceased brother Yemo the first king as social classes emerge from his anatomy (priesthood from his head, the warrior class from his breast and arms, and the commoners from his sexual organs and legs).»

     

    So, what we see here is that the world is shaped by a sacrifise. Trough ritual sacrifice to the gods the world is kept in order.

     

    Cosmic order and universal reason

    Wall of text

    Spoiler

    Linguistic evidence has led scholars to reconstruct the concept of *h₂értus, denoting 'what is fitting, rightly ordered', and ultimately deriving from the verbal root *h₂er-, 'to fit'. Descendant cognates include Hittite āra('right, proper');[67] Sanskrit ṛta ('divine/cosmic law, force of truth, or order');[68][69] Avestanarəta- ('order'); Greek artús ('arrangement'), possibly arete ('excellence') via the root *h₂erh₁ ('please, satisfy');[70] Latin artus('joint'); Tocharian A ārtt- ('to praise, be pleased with'); Armenian ard ('ornament, shape'); Middle High German art ('innate feature, nature, fashion').[71]

    Interwoven with the root *h₂er- ('to fit') is the verbal root *dʰeh₁-, which means 'to put, lay down, establish', but also 'speak, say; bring back'.[72][36][71] The Greek thémis and the Sanskrit dhāman both derive from the PIE noun for the 'Law', *dʰeh₁-men-, literally 'that which is established'.[71] This notion of 'Law' includes an active principle, denoting an activity in obedience to the cosmic order *h₂értus, which in a social context is interpreted as a lawful conduct: in the Greek daughter culture, the titaness Themis personifies the cosmic order and the rules of lawful conduct which derived from it,[73] and the Vedic code of lawful conduct, the Dharma, can also be traced back to the PIE root *dʰeh₁-.[74] According to Martin L. West, the root *dʰeh₁- also denotes a divine or cosmic creation, as attested by the Hittite expression nēbis dēgan dāir ("established heaven (and) earth"), the Young Avestanformula kə huvāpå raocåscā dāt təmåscā?("What skilful artificer made the regions of light and dark?"), the name of the Vedic creator god Dhātr, and possibly by the Greek nymph Thetis, presented as a demiurgicalgoddess in Alcman's poetry.[36]

    Another root *yew(e)s- appears to be connected with ritualistic laws, as suggested by the Latin iūs ('law, right, justice, duty'), Avestan yaož-dā- ('make ritually pure'), and Sanskrit śáṃca yóśca ('health and happiness'), with a derived adjective *yusi(iy)os seen in Old Irish uisse ('just right, fitting') and possibly Old Church Slavonic istǔ ('actual, true').[71]


    (An interresting note here is that both the term darma as well as karma is derived from rta. Same concept, in other words. Logos is another famous example).

     

    Hospitality and reciprocity

     

    In proto indo european the words for to give and take was the same word. Likewise for host and guest. This implies a culture of reciprocity (which we also see in sacrifise mentioned above).

     

    In ancient greece as well as norse society it was a crime/taboo to not let a wandering stranger stay the night and feed him. We find refferences to this in havamal as well as other places. In Norway it was literal law until somewhere in the 1800s. Tacitus, in his work Germania, likewise remarks on how the germanics both give and take without any guilt, and how the concept of rent is foreign to them.

     

    Relationship between mankind and the gods


    The PIE word for god meant celestial. The word for man meant earthly. You see this reflected in latin homo and humus as well as english (t)human.
     

    Another distinction is made, as in Homer for instance, between the imortal gods and mortal men. However, trough acts of superhuman courage, some men could ascend, become gods, achieve everlasting glory. This is what happened to Ceasar for instance.


    From Havamal (sayings of the high one, aka Odin):

    77. Cattle die, | and kinsmen die,
    And so one dies one's self;
    But a noble name | will never die,
    If good renown one gets.

     

    78. Cattle die, | and kinsmen die,
    And so one dies one's self;
    One thing now | that never dies,
    The fame of a dead man's deeds.

     

    The serpent slaying myth

     

    Long story short: cattle is stolen, Trito (the warrior) goes to a cave and fights a serpent (the word for serpent is negation) or some kind of monster (read: aboriginal), slays the serpent and retrive the cattle. Cattle was to them what money is to us, basically.

     

    So Trito is the archetypical warrior. It means, as you can probally tell, third, and has been used as ephitets to both Zeus and Odin. A more mystical interpertation: «According to Martin L. West, the Proto-Indo-European name *Trito('Third') may have been a "poetic or hieratic code-name, fully comprehensible only with specialized knowledge".[33]«

     

    Paradise


    The PIE imagined the afterlife/paradise as a green field/steppe. Not suprisingly, considering they were steppe people Before this, all has been sourced. From here on tho, this is pure speculation. The word eden (paradise) from the bible is borrowed from sumerian. In sumerian, the very same word means steppe. Any connection, do you think?

     

     

     

     

    final remarks

     

    This thread was suppoused to be about how languages shapes our world view. However, it turned into a monologue on the proto indo europeans, both because I lovd the topic and because I am a rambler…
     

    However 

    …

    I would highly appreciate if some of you could share some concepts from your own language, that would be difficult for a non native to comprehend!

     

    ❤️‍🔥

     

    • Like 1

  14. Posted

    So, this is something I have pondered about. I think this is in large part while I struggle to understand the philosophy of the far east: that our languages differs so radically.

     

    Here is a list of the world largest families:

    World language families

    Indo-European. 2.562 billion. 44.78%

    Sino-Tibetan. 1.276 billion. 22.28%

    Niger-Congo. 358 million. 6.26%

    Afro-Asiatic. 340 million. 5.93%

    Austronesian. 312 million. 5.45%

    Dravidian. 222 million. 3.87%

    Altaic. 145 million. 2.53%

    Japanese. 123 million. 2.16%
     

    In the case of this forum, I assume the overwhelming majority belong to either indo-european or Sino-tibetan. In fact, 66% of the world does. What I want to discuss here, is how this forms our understanding of reality.

     

    As the only chinese word I know is Nǐ hǎo (I am not excagerariring, it really is) I will limit myself to talking about some indo european words and its realtion to spirituality. I hope, however, anyone familiar with other languages can share some of their knowledge.

     

    So lets look into some indo european concepts:

     

    breath and spirit 


    All the following word has or had the double meaning of breath and spirit:

    - Ånd or varations of it (scandinavia)

    - spiritus, mens, animus or anima (latin)

    - Pneuma (greek)

    - Geist (german)

    - spirit or mind (english)

    - Espirit (french)

    - Atman (sanskrit)

     

    Here comes the juiciest part, in my opinion. Atman is a direct cognate to ånd (mentioned above) as well as old english ǽþm and eþian, from where the modern english word breath comes from.

     

    Sacrifice

     

    «In the creation myth, the first man Manu and his giant twin Yemo are crossing the cosmos, accompanied by the primordial cow. To create the world, Manu sacrifices his brother and, with the help of heavenly deities (the Sky-Father, the Storm-God and the Divine Twins),[43][47] forges both the natural elements and human beings from his remains. Manu thus becomes the first priest after initiating sacrifice as the primordial condition for the world order, and his deceased brother Yemo the first king as social classes emerge from his anatomy (priesthood from his head, the warrior class from his breast and arms, and the commoners from his sexual organs and legs).»

     

    So, what we see here is that the world is shaped by a sacrifise. Trough ritual sacrifice to the gods the world is kept in order.

     

    Cosmic order and universal reason

    Wall of text

    Spoiler

    Linguistic evidence has led scholars to reconstruct the concept of *h₂értus, denoting 'what is fitting, rightly ordered', and ultimately deriving from the verbal root *h₂er-, 'to fit'. Descendant cognates include Hittite āra('right, proper');[67] Sanskrit ṛta ('divine/cosmic law, force of truth, or order');[68][69] Avestanarəta- ('order'); Greek artús ('arrangement'), possibly arete ('excellence') via the root *h₂erh₁ ('please, satisfy');[70] Latin artus('joint'); Tocharian A ārtt- ('to praise, be pleased with'); Armenian ard ('ornament, shape'); Middle High German art ('innate feature, nature, fashion').[71]

    Interwoven with the root *h₂er- ('to fit') is the verbal root *dʰeh₁-, which means 'to put, lay down, establish', but also 'speak, say; bring back'.[72][36][71] The Greek thémis and the Sanskrit dhāman both derive from the PIE noun for the 'Law', *dʰeh₁-men-, literally 'that which is established'.[71] This notion of 'Law' includes an active principle, denoting an activity in obedience to the cosmic order *h₂értus, which in a social context is interpreted as a lawful conduct: in the Greek daughter culture, the titaness Themis personifies the cosmic order and the rules of lawful conduct which derived from it,[73] and the Vedic code of lawful conduct, the Dharma, can also be traced back to the PIE root *dʰeh₁-.[74] According to Martin L. West, the root *dʰeh₁- also denotes a divine or cosmic creation, as attested by the Hittite expression nēbis dēgan dāir ("established heaven (and) earth"), the Young Avestanformula kə huvāpå raocåscā dāt təmåscā?("What skilful artificer made the regions of light and dark?"), the name of the Vedic creator god Dhātr, and possibly by the Greek nymph Thetis, presented as a demiurgicalgoddess in Alcman's poetry.[36]

    Another root *yew(e)s- appears to be connected with ritualistic laws, as suggested by the Latin iūs ('law, right, justice, duty'), Avestan yaož-dā- ('make ritually pure'), and Sanskrit śáṃca yóśca ('health and happiness'), with a derived adjective *yusi(iy)os seen in Old Irish uisse ('just right, fitting') and possibly Old Church Slavonic istǔ ('actual, true').[71]


    (An interresting note here is that both the term darma as well as karma is derived from rta. Same concept, in other words. Logos is another famous example).

     

    Hospitality and reciprocity

     

    In proto indo european the words for to give and take was the same word. Likewise for host and guest. This implies a culture of reciprocity (which we also see in sacrifise mentioned above).

     

    In ancient greece as well as norse society it was a crime/taboo to not let a wandering stranger stay the night and feed him. We find refferences to this in havamal as well as other places. In Norway it was literal law until somewhere in the 1800s. Tacitus, in his work Germania, likewise remarks on how the germanics both give and take without any guilt, and how the concept of rent is foreign to them.

     

    Relationship between mankind and the gods


    The PIE word for god meant celestial. The word for man meant earthly. You see this reflected in latin homo and humus as well as english (t)human.
     

    Another distinction is made, as in Homer for instance, between the imortal gods and mortal men. However, trough acts of superhuman courage, some men could ascend, become gods, achieve everlasting glory. This is what happened to Ceasar for instance.


    From Havamal (sayings of the high one, aka Odin):

    77. Cattle die, | and kinsmen die,
    And so one dies one's self;
    But a noble name | will never die,
    If good renown one gets.

     

    78. Cattle die, | and kinsmen die,
    And so one dies one's self;
    One thing now | that never dies,
    The fame of a dead man's deeds.

     

    The serpent slaying myth

     

    Long story short: cattle is stolen, Trito (the warrior) goes to a cave and fights a serpent (the word for serpent is negation) or some kind of monster (read: aboriginal), slays the serpent and retrive the cattle. Cattle was to them what money is to us, basically.

     

    So Trito is the archetypical warrior. It means, as you can probally tell, third, and has been used as ephitets to both Zeus and Odin. A more mystical interpertation: «According to Martin L. West, the Proto-Indo-European name *Trito('Third') may have been a "poetic or hieratic code-name, fully comprehensible only with specialized knowledge".[33]«

     

    Paradise


    The PIE imagined the afterlife/paradise as a green field/steppe. Not suprisingly, considering they were steppe people Before this, all has been sourced. From here on tho, this is pure speculation. The word eden (paradise) from the bible is borrowed from sumerian. In sumerian, the very same word means steppe. Any connection, do you think?

     

     

     

     

    final remarks

     

    This thread was suppoused to be about how languages shapes our world view. However, it turned into a monologue on the proto indo europeans, both because I lovd the topic and because I am a rambler…
     

    However 

    …

    I would highly appreciate if some of you could share some concepts from your own language, that would be difficult for a non native to comprehend!

     

    ❤️‍🔥

     

  15. Posted

    So, this is something I have pondered about. I think this is in large part while I struggle to understand the philosophy of the far east: that our languages differs so radically.

     

    Here is a list of the world largest families:

    World language families

    Indo-European. 2.562 billion. 44.78%

    Sino-Tibetan. 1.276 billion. 22.28%

    Niger-Congo. 358 million. 6.26%

    Afro-Asiatic. 340 million. 5.93%

    Austronesian. 312 million. 5.45%

    Dravidian. 222 million. 3.87%

    Altaic. 145 million. 2.53%

    Japanese. 123 million. 2.16%
     

    In the case of this forum, I assume the overwhelming majority belong to either indo-european or Sino-tibetan. In fact, 66% of the world does. What I want to discuss here, is how this forms our understanding of reality.

     

    As the only chinese word I know is Nǐ hǎo (I am not excagerariring, it really is) I will limit myself to talking about some indo european words and its realtion to spirituality. I hope, however, anyone familiar with other languages can share some of their knowledge.

     

    So lets look into some indo european concepts:

     

    breath and spirit 


    All the following word has or had the double meaning of breath and spirit:

    - Ånd or varations of it (scandinavia)

    - spiritus, mens, animus or anima (latin)

    - Pneuma (greek)

    - Geist (german)

    - spirit or mind (english)

    - Espirit (french)

    - Atman (sanskrit)

     

    Here comes the juiciest part, in my opinion. Atman is a direct cognate to ånd (mentioned above) as well as old english ǽþm and eþian, from where the modern english word breath comes from.

     

    Sacrifice

     

    «In the creation myth, the first man Manu and his giant twin Yemo are crossing the cosmos, accompanied by the primordial cow. To create the world, Manu sacrifices his brother and, with the help of heavenly deities (the Sky-Father, the Storm-God and the Divine Twins),[43][47] forges both the natural elements and human beings from his remains. Manu thus becomes the first priest after initiating sacrifice as the primordial condition for the world order, and his deceased brother Yemo the first king as social classes emerge from his anatomy (priesthood from his head, the warrior class from his breast and arms, and the commoners from his sexual organs and legs).»

     

    So, what we see here is that the world is shaped by a sacrifise. Trough ritual sacrifice to the gods the world is kept in order.

     

    Cosmic order and universal reason

    Wall of text

    Spoiler

    Linguistic evidence has led scholars to reconstruct the concept of *h₂értus, denoting 'what is fitting, rightly ordered', and ultimately deriving from the verbal root *h₂er-, 'to fit'. Descendant cognates include Hittite āra('right, proper');[67] Sanskrit ṛta ('divine/cosmic law, force of truth, or order');[68][69] Avestanarəta- ('order'); Greek artús ('arrangement'), possibly arete ('excellence') via the root *h₂erh₁ ('please, satisfy');[70] Latin artus('joint'); Tocharian A ārtt- ('to praise, be pleased with'); Armenian ard ('ornament, shape'); Middle High German art ('innate feature, nature, fashion').[71]

    Interwoven with the root *h₂er- ('to fit') is the verbal root *dʰeh₁-, which means 'to put, lay down, establish', but also 'speak, say; bring back'.[72][36][71] The Greek thémis and the Sanskrit dhāman both derive from the PIE noun for the 'Law', *dʰeh₁-men-, literally 'that which is established'.[71] This notion of 'Law' includes an active principle, denoting an activity in obedience to the cosmic order *h₂értus, which in a social context is interpreted as a lawful conduct: in the Greek daughter culture, the titaness Themis personifies the cosmic order and the rules of lawful conduct which derived from it,[73] and the Vedic code of lawful conduct, the Dharma, can also be traced back to the PIE root *dʰeh₁-.[74] According to Martin L. West, the root *dʰeh₁- also denotes a divine or cosmic creation, as attested by the Hittite expression nēbis dēgan dāir ("established heaven (and) earth"), the Young Avestanformula kə huvāpå raocåscā dāt təmåscā?("What skilful artificer made the regions of light and dark?"), the name of the Vedic creator god Dhātr, and possibly by the Greek nymph Thetis, presented as a demiurgicalgoddess in Alcman's poetry.[36]

    Another root *yew(e)s- appears to be connected with ritualistic laws, as suggested by the Latin iūs ('law, right, justice, duty'), Avestan yaož-dā- ('make ritually pure'), and Sanskrit śáṃca yóśca ('health and happiness'), with a derived adjective *yusi(iy)os seen in Old Irish uisse ('just right, fitting') and possibly Old Church Slavonic istǔ ('actual, true').[71]


    (An interresting note here is that both the term darma as well as karma is derived from rta. Same concept, in other words. Logos is another famous example).

     

    Hospitality and reciprocity

     

    In proto indo european the words for to give and take was the same word. Likewise for host and guest. This implies a culture of reciprocity (which we also see in sacrifise mentioned above).

     

    In ancient greece as well as norse society it was a crime/taboo to not let a wandering stranger stay the night and feed him. We find refferences to this in havamal as well as other places. In Norway it was literal law until somewhere in the 1800s. Tacitus, in his work Germania, likewise remarks on how the germanics both give and take without any guilt, and how the concept of rent is foreign to them.

     

    Relationship between mankind and the gods


    The PIE word for god meant celestial. The word for man meant earthly. You see this reflected in latin homo and humus as well as english (t)human.
     

    Another distinction is made, as in Homer for instance, between the imortal gods and mortal men. However, trough acts of superhuman courage, some men could ascend, become gods, achieve everlasting glory. This is what happened to Ceasar for instance.


    From Havamal (sayings of the high one, aka Odin):

    77. Cattle die, | and kinsmen die,
    And so one dies one's self;
    But a noble name | will never die,
    If good renown one gets.

     

    78. Cattle die, | and kinsmen die,
    And so one dies one's self;
    One thing now | that never dies,
    The fame of a dead man's deeds.

     

    The serpent slaying myth

     

    Long story short: cattle is stolen, Trito (the warrior) goes to a cave and fights a serpent (the word for serpent is negation) or some kind of monster (read: aboriginal), slays the serpent and retrive the cattle. Cattle was to them what money is to us, basically.

     

    So Trito is the archetypical warrior. It means, as you can probally tell, third, and has been used as ephitets to both Zeus and Odin. A more mystical interpertation: «According to Martin L. West, the Proto-Indo-European name *Trito('Third') may have been a "poetic or hieratic code-name, fully comprehensible only with specialized knowledge".[33]«

     

    Paradise


    The PIE imagined the afterlife/paradise as a green field/steppe. Not suprisingly, considering they were steppe people Before this, all has been sourced. From here on tho, this is pure speculation. The word eden (paradise) from the bible is borrowed from sumerian. In sumerian, the very same word means steppe. Any connection, do you think?

     

     

     

     

    final remarks

     

    This thread was suppoused to be about how languages shapes our world view. However, it turned into a monologue on the proto indo europeans, both because I lovd the topic and because I am a rambler…
     

    However 

    …

    I would highly appreciate if some of you could share some concepts from your own language, that would be difficult for a non native to comprehend!

     

    ❤️‍🔥

     

  16. Posted

    So, this is something I have pondered about. I think this is in large part while I struggle to understand the philosophy of the far east: that our languages differs so radically.

     

    Here is a list of the world largest families:

    World language families

    Indo-European. 2.562 billion. 44.78%

    Sino-Tibetan. 1.276 billion. 22.28%

    Niger-Congo. 358 million. 6.26%

    Afro-Asiatic. 340 million. 5.93%

    Austronesian. 312 million. 5.45%

    Dravidian. 222 million. 3.87%

    Altaic. 145 million. 2.53%

    Japanese. 123 million. 2.16%
     

    In the case of this forum, I assume the overwhelming majority belong to either indo-european or Sino-tibetan. In fact, 66% of the world does. What I want to discuss here, is how this forms our understanding of reality.

     

    As the only chinese word I know is Nǐ hǎo (I am not excagerariring, it really is) I will limit myself to talking about some indo european words and its realtion to spirituality. I hope, however, anyone familiar with other languages can share some of their knowledge.

     

    So lets look into some indo european concepts:

     

    breath and spirit 


    All the following word has or had the double meaning of breath and spirit:

    - Ånd or varations of it (scandinavia)

    - spiritus, mens, animus or anima (latin)

    - Pneuma (greek)

    - Geist (german)

    - spirit or mind (english)

    - Espirit (french)

    - Atman (sanskrit)

     

    Here comes the juiciest part, in my opinion. Atman is a direct cognate to ånd (mentioned above) as well as old english ǽþm and eþian, from where the modern english word breath comes from.

     

    Sacrifice

     

    «In the creation myth, the first man Manu and his giant twin Yemo are crossing the cosmos, accompanied by the primordial cow. To create the world, Manu sacrifices his brother and, with the help of heavenly deities (the Sky-Father, the Storm-God and the Divine Twins),[43][47] forges both the natural elements and human beings from his remains. Manu thus becomes the first priest after initiating sacrifice as the primordial condition for the world order, and his deceased brother Yemo the first king as social classes emerge from his anatomy (priesthood from his head, the warrior class from his breast and arms, and the commoners from his sexual organs and legs).»

     

    So, what we see here is that the world is shaped by a sacrifise. Trough ritual sacrifice to the gods the world is kept in order.

     

    Cosmic order and universal reason

    Wall of text

    Spoiler

    Linguistic evidence has led scholars to reconstruct the concept of *h₂értus, denoting 'what is fitting, rightly ordered', and ultimately deriving from the verbal root *h₂er-, 'to fit'. Descendant cognates include Hittite āra('right, proper');[67] Sanskrit ṛta ('divine/cosmic law, force of truth, or order');[68][69] Avestanarəta- ('order'); Greek artús ('arrangement'), possibly arete ('excellence') via the root *h₂erh₁ ('please, satisfy');[70] Latin artus('joint'); Tocharian A ārtt- ('to praise, be pleased with'); Armenian ard ('ornament, shape'); Middle High German art ('innate feature, nature, fashion').[71]

    Interwoven with the root *h₂er- ('to fit') is the verbal root *dʰeh₁-, which means 'to put, lay down, establish', but also 'speak, say; bring back'.[72][36][71] The Greek thémis and the Sanskrit dhāman both derive from the PIE noun for the 'Law', *dʰeh₁-men-, literally 'that which is established'.[71] This notion of 'Law' includes an active principle, denoting an activity in obedience to the cosmic order *h₂értus, which in a social context is interpreted as a lawful conduct: in the Greek daughter culture, the titaness Themis personifies the cosmic order and the rules of lawful conduct which derived from it,[73] and the Vedic code of lawful conduct, the Dharma, can also be traced back to the PIE root *dʰeh₁-.[74] According to Martin L. West, the root *dʰeh₁- also denotes a divine or cosmic creation, as attested by the Hittite expression nēbis dēgan dāir ("established heaven (and) earth"), the Young Avestanformula kə huvāpå raocåscā dāt təmåscā?("What skilful artificer made the regions of light and dark?"), the name of the Vedic creator god Dhātr, and possibly by the Greek nymph Thetis, presented as a demiurgicalgoddess in Alcman's poetry.[36]

    Another root *yew(e)s- appears to be connected with ritualistic laws, as suggested by the Latin iūs ('law, right, justice, duty'), Avestan yaož-dā- ('make ritually pure'), and Sanskrit śáṃca yóśca ('health and happiness'), with a derived adjective *yusi(iy)os seen in Old Irish uisse ('just right, fitting') and possibly Old Church Slavonic istǔ ('actual, true').[71]


    (An interresting note here is that both the term darma as well as karma is derived from rta. Same concept, in other words. Logos is another famous example).

     

    Hospitality and reciprocity

     

    In proto indo european the words for to give and take was the same word. Likewise for host and guest. This implies a culture of reciprocity (which we also see in sacrifise mentioned above).

     

    In ancient greece as well as norse society it was a crime/taboo to not let a wandering stranger stay the night and feed him. We find refferences to this in havamal as well as other places. In Norway it was literal law until somewhere in the 1800s. Tacitus, in his work Germania, likewise remarks on how the germanics both give and take without any guilt, and how the concept of rent is foreign to them.

     

    Relationship between mankind and the gods


    The PIE word for god meant celestial. The word for man meant earthly. You see this reflected in latin homo and humus as well as english (t)human.
     

    Another distinction is made, as in Homer for instance, between the imortal gods and mortal men. However, trough acts of superhuman courage, some men could ascend, become gods, achieve everlasting glory. This is what happened to Ceasar for instance.


    From Havamal (sayings of the high one, aka Odin):

    77. Cattle die, | and kinsmen die,
    And so one dies one's self;
    But a noble name | will never die,
    If good renown one gets.

     

    78. Cattle die, | and kinsmen die,
    And so one dies one's self;
    One thing now | that never dies,
    The fame of a dead man's deeds.

     

    The serpent slaying myth

     

    Long story short: cattle is stolen, Trito (the warrior) goes to a cave and fights a serpent (the word for serpent is negation) or some kind of monster (read: aboriginal), slays the serpent and retrive the cattle. Cattle was to them what money is to us, basically.

     

    So Trito is the archetypical warrior. It means, as you can probally tell, third, and has been used as ephitets to both Zeus and Odin. A more mystical interpertation: «According to Martin L. West, the Proto-Indo-European name *Trito('Third') may have been a "poetic or hieratic code-name, fully comprehensible only with specialized knowledge".[33]«

     

    Paradise


    The PIE imagined the afterlife/paradise as a green field/steppe. Not suprisingly, considering they were steppe people Before this, all has been sourced. From here on tho, this is pure speculation. The word eden (paradise) from the bible is borrowed from sumerian. In sumerian, the very same word means steppe. Any connection, do you think?

     

     

     

     

    final remarks

     

    This thread was suppoused to be about how languages shapes our world view. However, it turned into a monologue on the proto indo europeans, both because I lovd the topic and because I am a rambler…
     

    However 

    …

    I would highly appreciate if some of you could share some concepts from your own language, that would be difficult for a non native to comprehend!

     

    ❤️‍🔥

     

  22. Posted · Edited by NaturaNaturans

    2 hours ago, blue eyed snake said:

    @Nungali   remarked that the aboriginals do not have that aggressive streak that is so common in humans, he thought that it has a relationship with not doing sacrifice ( i hope i got this right, else he will correct me)  I added the San and the Saami, and now add the Inuit.

     

    those 4 indigenous people have one thing in common, their environment is harsh, without good relationships the chances of survival would be much smaller i guess. They are truly dependent on each other. They do not hit their children and, as far as I know, have no forced monogamous relationships.

     

    -----

     

    apart from the people there is mother earth herself to consider, roughly western world equates to christian world and it is the western world that has chopped down forests, burnt coal, oil and gas, polluted the streams, polluted everything. 

     

    so no, I will never be friendly towards that religion.

     

    I guess it will be the sparse little groups of people that still live closely to the ways their forebears lived that will survive the horrid climate crisis that has started in earnest now.

    Lets take a look at four different societies. Three of them described in Graeber and Wengrows "dawn of everything," and one theory put forward in "12.000 med norsk historie."

     

    1. Heroic societies:

    Spoiler

    Writing in the 1920s, Chadwick – Professor of Anglo-Saxon atCambridge, at much the same time J. R. R. Tolkien held that post at Oxford– was initially concerned with why great traditions of epic poetry (Nordicsagas, the works of Homer, the Ramayana) always seemed to emergeamong people in contact with and often employed by the urban civilizationsof their day, but who ultimately rejected the values of those samecivilizations. For a long time, his notion of 'heroic societies' fell into acertain disfavour: there was a widespread assumption that such societies didnot really exist but were, like the society represented in Homer's Iliad,retroactively reconstructed in epic literature.But as archaeologists have more recently discovered, there is a very realpattern of heroic burials, indicating in turn an emerging cultural emphasison feasting, drinking, the beauty and fame of the individual male warrior.80And it appears time and again around the fringes of urban life, often instrikingly similar forms, over the course of the Eurasian Bronze Age.Insearching for the common features of such 'heroic societies', we can find afairly consistent list in precisely the traditions of epic poetry that Chadwickcompared (in each region, the first written versions being much later in datethan the heroic burials themselves, but shedding light on earlier customs).It's a list which applies just as well, in most of its features, to the potlatchsocieties of the Northwest Coast or, for that matter, the Māori of NewZealand.All these cultures were aristocracies, without any centralized authorityor principle of sovereignty (or, maybe, some largely symbolic, formal one).Instead of a single centre, we find numerous heroic figures competingfiercely with one another for retainers and slaves. 'Politics', in suchsocieties, was composed of a history of personal debts of loyalty orvengeance between heroic individuals; all, moreover, focus on game-likecontests as the primary business of ritual, indeed political, life.81 Often,massive amounts of loot or wealth were squandered, sacrificed or givenaway in such theatrical performances. Moreover, all such groups explicitlyresisted certain features of nearby urban civilizations: above all, writing, forwhich they tended to substitute poets or priests who engaged in rotememorization or elaborate techniques of oral composition. Inside their ownsocieties, at least, they also rejected commerce. Hence standardizedcurrency, either in physical or credit forms, tended to be eschewed, with thefocus instead on unique material treasures.It goes without saying that we cannot possibly hope to trace all thesevarious tendencies back into periods for which no written testimony exists.But it is equally clear that, insofar as modern archaeology allows us toidentify an ultimate origin for 'heroic societies' of this sort, it is to be foundprecisely on the spatial and cultural margins of the world's first great urbanexpansion (indeed, some of the earliest aristocratic tombs in the Turkishhighlands were dug directly into the ruins of abandoned Uruk colonies).82Aristocracies, perhaps monarchy itself, first emerged in opposition to theegalitarian cities of the Mesopotamian plains, for which they likely hadmuch the same mixed but ultimately hostile and murderous feelings asAlaric the Goth would later have towards Rome and everything it stood for,Genghis Khan towards Samarkand or Merv, or Timur towards Delhi.

    ("dawn of everything", chapter 8. "IN WHICH WE DESCRIBE HOW (WRITTEN) HISTORY, ANDPROBABLY (ORAL) EPIC TOO, BEGAN: WITH BIG COUNCILSIN THE CITIES, AND SMALL KINGDOMS IN THE HILLS")

     

    2. Indus valley

     

    Spoiler

    But it’s this last point that leads us in more promising directions. Despite all its problems, Mohenjo-daro and its sister sites in the Punjab do offer some insights into the nature of civic life in the first cities of South Asia, and into the wider question that we posed at the start of this chapter: is there a causal relationship between scale and inequality in human societies? Let’s consider, for a moment, what archaeology tells us about wealth distribution at Mohenjo-daro. Contrary to what we might expect, there is no concentration of material wealth on the Upper Citadel. Quite the opposite, in fact. Metals, gemstones and worked shell – for example – were widely available to households of the Lower Town; archaeologists have recovered such goods from caches beneath house floors, and bundles of them are scattered over every quarter of the site.90 The same goes for little terracotta figures of people wearing bangles, diadems and other flashy personal adornment. Not so the Upper Citadel. Writing, and also standard weights and measures, were also widely distributed across the Lower Town; so too evidence for craft occupations and industries from metalworking and potting to the manufacture of beads. All flourished down there, in the Lower Town, but are absent from the city’s Upper Citadel, where the main civic structures stood.91 Objects made for personal display had little place, it seems, in the most elevated quarters of the city. Instead, what defines the Upper Citadel are buildings like the Great Bath – a large sunken pool measuring roughly forty feet long and over six feet deep, lined with carefully executed brickwork, sealed with plaster and bitumen and entered on either side via steps with timber treads – all constructed to the finest architectural standards, yet unmarked by monuments dedicated to particular rulers, or indeed any other signs of personal aggrandizement. Because of its lack of royal sculpture, or indeed other forms of monumental depiction, the Indus valley has been termed a ‘faceless civilization’.92 At Mohenjo-daro, it seems, the focus of civic life was not a palace or cenotaph, but a public facility for purifying the body. Brick-made bathing floors and platforms also were a standard fixture in most dwellings of the Lower Town. Citizens seem to have been familiar with very specific notions of cleanliness, with daily ablutions apparently forming part of their domestic routine. The Great Bath was, at one level, an outsized version of these residential washing facilities. On another level, though, life on the Upper Citadel seems to negate that of the Lower Town. So long as the Great Bath was in use – and it was for some centuries – we find no evidence of industrial activities nearby. The narrowing lanes on the acropolis effectively prevented the use of ox-drawn carts and similar commercial traffic. Here, it was the Bath itself – and the act of bathing – that became the focus of social life and labour. Barracks and storerooms adjacent to the Bath housed a staff (whether in attached or rotating service, we cannot know) and their essential supplies. The Upper Citadel was a special sort of ‘city within the city’, in which ordinary principles of household organization went into reverse.93 All this is redolent of the inequality of the caste system, with its hierarchical division of social functions, organized on an ascending scale of purity. 94 But the earliest recorded reference to caste in South Asia comes only 1,000 years later, in the Rig Veda – an anthology of sacrificial hymns, first committed to writing around 1200 BC. The system, as described in later Sanskrit epics, consisted of four hereditary ranks or varnas: priests (brahmins), warriors or nobles (kshatriyas), farmers and traders (vaishyas) and labourers (shudras); and also those so lowly as to be excluded from the varnas entirely. The very top ranks belong to world-renouncers, whose abstention from trappings of personal status raises them to a higher spiritual plane. Commerce, industry and status rivalries may all thrive, but the wealth, power or prosperity being fought over is always seen as of lesser value – in the great scheme of things – than the purity of priestly caste. The varna system is about as ‘unequal’ as any social system can possibly be, yet where one ranks within it has less to do with how many material goods one can pile up or lay claim to than with one’s relation to certain (polluting) substances – physical dirt and waste, but also bodily matter linked to birth, death and menstruation – and the people who handle them. All this creates serious problems for any contemporary scholar seeking to apply Gini coefficients or any other property-based measure of ‘inequality’ to the society in question. On the other hand, and despite the great gaps in time between our sources, it might allow us to make sense of some of Mohenjo-daro’s otherwise puzzling features, such as the fact that those residential buildings most closely resembling palaces are not located on the Upper Citadel but crammed into the streets of the Lower Town – that bit closer to the mud, sewage pipes and paddy fields, where such jostling for worldly status seems to have properly belonged.95 Clearly, we can’t just project the social world evoked in Sanskrit literature indiscriminately on to the much earlier Indus civilization. If the first South Asian cities were indeed organized on caste-like principles, then we would immediately have to acknowledge a major difference from the system of ranks described over a millennium later in Sanskrit texts, where second-highest status (just below brahmins) is reserved for the warrior caste known as kshatriyas. In the Bronze Age Indus valley there is no evidence of anything like a kshatriya class of warrior-nobles, nor of the kind of aggrandizing behaviour associated with such groups in later epic tales such as the Mahabharata or Ramayana. Even the largest cities, like Harappa and Mohenjo-daro, yield no evidence of spectacular sacrifices or feasts, no pictorial narratives of military prowess or celebrations of famous deeds, no sign of tournaments in which anyone vied over titles and treasures, no aristocratic burials. And if such things were going on in the Indus cities at the time, there would be ways to know. Indus civilization wasn’t some kind of commercial or spiritual arcadia; nor was it an entirely peaceful society. 96 But neither does it contain any evidence for charismatic authority figures: war leaders, lawgivers and the like. A small, cloaked sculpture made of yellow limestone from Mohenjodaro, known in the literature as the ‘priest-king’, is often presented as such. But, in fact, there’s no particular reason to believe the figure really is a priest-king or an authority figure of any sort. It’s simply a limestone image of an urbane Bronze Age man with a beard. The fact that past generations of scholars have insisted on referring to him as ‘priest-king’ is testimony more to their own assumptions about what they think must have been happening in early Asian cities than anything the evidence implies. Over time, experts have largely come to agree that there’s no evidence for priest-kings, warrior nobility, or anything like what we would recognize as a ‘state’ in the urban civilization of the Indus valley. Can we speak, then, of ‘egalitarian cities’ here as well, and if so, in what sense? If the Upper Citadel at Mohenjo-daro really was dominated by some sort of ascetic order, literally ‘higher’ than everyone else, and the area around the citadel by wealthy merchants, then there was a clear hierarchy between groups. Yet this doesn’t necessarily mean that the groups themselves were hierarchical in their internal organization, or that ascetics and merchants had a greater say than anyone else when it came to matters of day-to-day governance.

    IN WHICH WE CONSIDER WHETHER THE INDUS CIVILIZATION WAS AN EXAMPLE OF CASTE BEFORE KINGSHIP

     

    3. The Indigenous Critique: native Americans as a mirror to European society

     

    «I have spent six years reflecting on the state of European society and I still can't think of a single way they act that is not inhuman, and I genuinely think this can only be the case as long as you stick to your distinctions of 'mine' and 'thine'. To imagine one can live in the country of money and preserve one's soul is like imagining one could preserve one's life at the bottom of a lake.»
    Kondiaronk, Huron chief, 1600s

     

    https://www.shortform.com/blog/indigenous-critique/

     

    So, all the above is from "the dawn of everything by Wengrow and Graeber. The central thesis is that there is no "state of nature." Societies are not predetermined to develop a certain way, they are built consciously and vary greatly. Truth be told, the book as attracted some criticism, but make up your own mind.

     

    4. Scandianavian trust based societies

     

    Alright, now I am entering etnocentric and politically iucorrect territory. but fact is, the Scandinavian countries do have the highest amount of social trust of all nations on the plant. Sturla Ellingsvåg, who is a genetics and historian who have done research with Max Planc institute, David Reich lab at harward and Kristian Kristiansen at the university of Copenhagen (all this to say, he knows what he is talking about), put the high degree of trust down to genetic heritage from the Scandinavian hunter gatherers. There were simply no way to survive in an environment like Scandinavia with out it.


    Edit: continuation: it is also interresting how he argues for the Aesir being the indo euro invaders, vanir the early european farmers and jotuns the scandinavian hunter gatherers. The aesir are certainly a so called heroic society, the vanir asscociated with fertility and probally more egalitarian.

     

    edit two: ill refrain from making any value judgement. To me, they are all just different expressions of culture, each with their pros and cons. I do not want to be a slave in Mesopotamia, nor do I want to be invaded by the indo europeans. Allthough… the hunther gatherer life style strikes me as quite romantic.

    • Like 1

  25. Posted

    3 hours ago, Nungali said:

     

     

    Leviticus  16    ... isnt that about some goat being sent off to the wilderness ... but then it came back , and that was indeed considered an evil omen .

     

    So after that they took the goat out to the wilderness  ( to make sure it would not come back )   ? 

    If not they beat it to death to cleanse IT of THEIR sins, I can't recall. How was it, @Daniel?