Vajra Mind
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Trying to understand this as I’m not an Abrahamic…
Vajra Mind replied to Zorro Dantes's topic in Abrahamic Religions Discussion
Now Daniel, can you interpret the following verses 59:2-5. Who were those disbelievers of the people of the book? How did they defy Allah? 59:2 He is the One Who expelled the disbelievers of the People of the Book from their homes for ˹their˺ first banishment ˹ever˺. You never thought they would go. And they thought their strongholds would put them out of Allah’s reach. But ˹the decree of˺ Allah came upon them from where they never expected. And He cast horror into their hearts so they destroyed their houses with their own hands and the hands of the believers. So take a lesson ˹from this˺, O people of insight! 59:3 Had Allah not decreed exile for them, He would have certainly punished them in this world. And in the Hereafter they will suffer the punishment of the Fire. 59:4 This is because they defied Allah and His Messenger. And whoever defies Allah, then Allah is truly severe in punishment. 59:5 Whatever palm trees you ˹believers˺ cut down or left standing intact, it was ˹all˺ by Allah’s Will, so that He might disgrace the rebellious. Also, these two verses are mentioning another battle with the Jews. Can you interpret what happened and how? 33:26 And He brought down those from the People of the Book who supported the enemy alliance from their own strongholds, and cast horror into their hearts. You ˹believers˺ killed some, and took others captive. 33:27 He has also caused you to take over their lands, homes, and wealth, as well as lands you have not yet set foot on. And Allah is Most Capable of everything. Last one Quran mentioned 2 prophets, whose is Ahmad and who is Mohammed? 61:6 And ˹remember˺ when Jesus, son of Mary, said, “O children of Israel! I am truly Allah’s messenger to you, confirming the Torah which came before me, and giving good news of a messenger after me whose name will be Aḥmad.” Yet when the Prophet came to them with clear proofs, they said, “This is pure magic.” 48:29 Muḥammad is the Messenger of Allah. The point of these relevant questions in this last post is help you realized that you need an outer reference to get the right context. Like How many wars did Mohammed waged against Jews? How did it happen? Was it truly justified or based on agenda? -
Trying to understand this as I’m not an Abrahamic…
Vajra Mind replied to Zorro Dantes's topic in Abrahamic Religions Discussion
9:29 Fight those who do not believe in Allah and the Last Day, nor comply with what Allah and His Messenger have forbidden, nor embrace the religion of truth from among those who were given the Scripture, until they pay the tax, willingly submitting, fully humbled Jews and Christians are not the religion of truth and they are fully humbled. 9:30 The Jews say, “Ezra is the son of Allah,” while the Christians say, “The Messiah is the son of Allah.” Such are their baseless assertions, only parroting the words of earlier disbelievers. May Allah condemn them! How can they be deluded ˹from the truth˺? The actual Arabic word is Uzair/Ozair not Ezra. This verse caused a controversy among Islamic scholars and tradition since no one knew who is Ozair and when did Jews make such heresy. 9:31 They have taken their rabbis and monks as well as the Messiah, son of Mary, as lords besides Allah, even though they were commanded to worship none but One God. There is no god ˹worthy of worship˺ except Him. Glorified is He above what they associate ˹with Him. Verses 9:30 and 9:31 explain why Jews are called polytheists in Quran no monotheists. 9:33 He is the One Who has sent His Messenger with ˹true˺ guidance and the religion of truth making it prevail over all others, even to the dismay of the polytheists 7:156 Allah replied, “I will inflict My torment on whoever I will. But My mercy encompasses everything. I will ordain mercy for those who shun evil, pay alms-tax, and believe in Our revelations. 7:157 “˹They are˺ the ones who follow the Messenger, the unlettered Prophet, whose description they find in their Torah and the Gospel. He commands them to do good and forbids them from evil, permits for them what is lawful and forbids to them what is impure, and relieves them from their burdens and the shackles that bound them. ˹Only˺ those who believe in him, honor and support him, and follow the light sent down to him will be successful.” Verses 7:156-157 clearly states who are the believers again. -
Trying to understand this as I’m not an Abrahamic…
Vajra Mind replied to Zorro Dantes's topic in Abrahamic Religions Discussion
2:40 O children of Israel! Remember My favours upon you. Fulfil your covenant and I will fulfil Mine, and stand in awe of Me ˹alone˺. 2:41 Believe in My revelations which confirm your Scriptures. Do not be the first to deny them or trade them for a fleeting gain. And be mindful of Me. Mohammed revelations confirm Jesus as prophet and Messiah. Do Jews believe that? 2:42 Do not mix truth with falsehood or hide the truth knowingly. 2:61 And ˹remember˺ when you said, “O Moses! We cannot endure the same meal ˹every day˺. So ˹just˺ call upon your Lord on our behalf, He will bring forth for us some of what the earth produces of herbs, cucumbers, garlic, lentils, and onions.” Moses scolded ˹them˺, “Do you exchange what is better for what is worse? ˹You can˺ go down to any village and you will find what you have asked for.” They were stricken with disgrace and misery, and they invited the displeasure of Allah for rejecting Allah’s signs and unjustly killing the prophets. This is ˹a fair reward˺ for their disobedience and violations. Displeasure here is Arabic ghadab (anger) 2:65 You are already aware of those of you who broke the Sabbath. We said to them, “Be disgraced apes!” 2:75 Do you ˹believers still˺ expect them to be true to you, though a group of them would hear the word of Allah then knowingly corrupt it after understanding it? Why Quran consistently and repeatedly accused Jews of not believing? 2:76 When they meet the believers they say, “We believe.” But in private they say ˹to each other˺, “Will you disclose to the believers the knowledge Allah has revealed to you, so that they may use it against you before your Lord? Do you not understand?” Jewish conspiracy 2.87 Indeed, We gave Moses the Book and sent after him successive messengers. And We gave Jesus, son of Mary, clear proofs and supported him with the holy spirit. Why is it that every time a messenger comes to you ˹Israelites˺ with something you do not like, you become arrogant, rejecting some and killing others? Jews rejecting Jesus and killing prophets. 2:88 They say, “Our hearts are unreceptive!” In fact, Allah has condemned them for their disbelief. They have but little faith. Again, condemned here is cursed for not believing in Jesus. 2:89 Although they used to pray for victory ˹by means of the Prophet˺ over the polytheists, when there came to them a Book from Allah which they recognized confirming the Scripture they had ˹in their hands˺, they rejected it. So may Allah’s condemnation be upon the disbelievers. Again, condemnation here is curse Arabic La’anah (noun). 2:90 Miserable is the price they have sold their souls for—denying Allah’s revelation and resenting Allah for granting His grace to whoever He wills of His servants! They have earned wrath upon wrath. And such disbelievers will suffer a humiliating punishment. Resenting Allah for his grace upon Mohammed. Wrath or anger is proper translation. 2:91 When it is said to them: “Believe in what Allah has revealed,” they reply, “We only believe in what was sent down to us,” and they deny what came afterwards, though it is the truth confirming their own Scriptures! Ask ˹them, O Prophet˺, “Why then did you kill Allah’s prophets before, if you are ˹truly˺ believers?” 2:100 Why is it that every time they make a covenant, a group of them casts it aside? In fact, most of them do not believe. 2:105 The disbelievers from the People of the Book and the polytheists would not want you to receive any blessing from your Lord, but Allah selects whoever He wills for His mercy. And Allah is the Lord of infinite bounty. 2:109 Many among the People of the Book wish they could turn you ˹believers˺ back to disbelief because of their envy, after the truth has been made clear to them. Pardon and bear with them until Allah delivers His decision. Surely Allah is Most Capable of everything. 2:120 Never will the Jews or Christians be pleased with you, until you follow their faith. Say, “Allah’s guidance is the only ˹true˺ guidance.” And if you were to follow their desires after ˹all˺ the knowledge that has come to you, there would be none to protect or help you against Allah. 2:135 The Jews and Christians each say, “Follow our faith to be ˹rightly˺ guided.” Say, ˹O Prophet,˺ “No! We follow the faith of Abraham, the upright—who was not a polytheist.” 2:140 Do you claim that Abraham, Ishmael, Isaac, Jacob, and his descendants were all Jews or Christians?” Say, “Who is more knowledgeable: you or Allah?” Who does more wrong than those who hide the testimony they received from Allah? And Allah is never unaware of what you do. 2:145 Even if you were to bring every proof to the People of the Book, they would not accept your direction ˹of prayer˺, nor would you accept theirs; nor would any of them accept the direction ˹of prayer˺ of another. And if you were to follow their desires after ˹all˺ the knowledge that has come to you, then you would certainly be one of the wrongdoers. Jews rejecting Mohammed direction of prayer to Mecca. Not believing in revelation. 2:146 Those We have given the Scripture recognize this ˹Prophet˺ as they recognize their own children. Yet a group of them hides the truth knowingly. This is what the Jews are hiding knowingly. -
Trying to understand this as I’m not an Abrahamic…
Vajra Mind replied to Zorro Dantes's topic in Abrahamic Religions Discussion
5:12 Allah made a covenant with the Children of Israel and appointed twelve leaders from among them and ˹then˺ said, “I am truly with you. If you establish prayer, pay alms-tax, believe in My messengers, support them, and lend to Allah a good loan, I will certainly forgive your sins and admit you into Gardens under which rivers flow. And whoever among you disbelieves afterwards has truly strayed from the Right Way.” Did Jews believe in Jesus and Mohammed and supported them? 5:13 But for breaking their covenant We condemned them and hardened their hearts. They distorted the words of the Scripture and neglected a portion of what they had been commanded to uphold. You ˹O Prophet˺ will always find deceit on their part, except for a few. But pardon them and bear with them. Indeed, Allah loves the good-doers. Dishonest translation condemned here is La’an meaning cursed them. Who are the exceptional few? Are they the few who converted? 5:15 O People of the Book! Now Our Messenger has come to you, revealing much of what you have hidden of the Scriptures and disregarding much. There certainly has come to you from Allah a light and a clear Book 5:19 O People of the Book! Our Messenger has indeed come to you, making things clear to you after an interval between the messengers so you do not say, “There has never come to us a deliverer of good news or a warner.” Now there has come to you a deliverer of good news and a warner. And Allah is Most Capable of everything. Mohammed is a messenger to Jews too not to Arabs only. Did Jews take him as such? 5:41 O Messenger! Do not grieve for those who race to disbelieve—those who say, “We believe” with their tongues, but their hearts are in disbelief. Nor those among the Jews who eagerly listen to lies, attentive to those who are too arrogant to come to you. They distort the Scripture, taking rulings out of context, then say, “If this is the ruling you get ˹from Muḥammad˺, accept it. If not, beware!” Whoever Allah allows to be deluded, you can never be of any help to them against Allah. It is not Allah’s Will to purify their hearts. For them is disgrace in this world, and they will suffer a tremendous punishment in the Hereafter. 5:48 We have revealed to you ˹O Prophet˺ this Book with the truth, as a confirmation of previous Scriptures and a supreme authority on them. So judge between them by what Allah has revealed, and do not follow their desires over the truth that has come to you. To each of you We have ordained a code of law and a way of life. If Allah had willed, He would have made you one community, but His Will is to test you with what He has given ˹each of˺ you. So compete with one another in doing good. To Allah you will all return, then He will inform you ˹of the truth˺ regarding your differences. 5:49 And judge between them ˹O Prophet˺ by what Allah has revealed, and do not follow their desires. And beware, so they do not lure you away from some of what Allah has revealed to you. If they turn away ˹from Allah’s judgment˺, then know that it is Allah’s Will to repay them for some of their sins, and that many people are indeed rebellious. Quran is the supreme authority over previous scripture. 5:51 O believers! Take neither Jews nor Christians as guardians—they are guardians of each other. Whoever does so will be counted as one of them. Surely Allah does not guide the wrongdoing people. 5:59 Say, ˹O Prophet,˺ “O People of the Book! Do you resent us only because we believe in Allah and what has been revealed to us and what was revealed before—while most of you are rebellious?” 5:60 Say, ˹O Prophet,˺ “Shall I inform you of those who deserve a worse punishment from Allah ˹than the rebellious˺? It is those who earned Allah’s condemnation and displeasure—some being reduced to apes and pigs and worshippers of false gods. These are far worse in rank and farther astray from the Right Way.” Dishonest translation condemnation here is La’an meaning Cursed. Displeasure is Anger, the Arabic word is ghadeba 5:64 ˹Some among˺ the Jews said, “Allah is tight-fisted.”May their fists be tied and they be condemned for what they said. Rather, He is open-handed, giving freely as He pleases. That which has been revealed to you ˹O Prophet˺ from your Lord will only cause many of them to increase in wickedness and disbelief. We have stirred among them hostility and hatred until the Day of Judgment. Whenever they kindle the fire of war, Allah puts it out. And they strive to spread corruption in the land. And Allah does not like corruptors. Again, dishonesty from the translator, there is no “some among” it just read “The Jews said”. Again, the word condemned is wrong translation it is Cursed. 5:65 Had the People of the Book only been faithful and mindful ˹of Allah˺, We would have certainly absolved them of their sins and admitted them into the Gardens of Bliss. 5:68 Say, ˹O Prophet,˺ “O People of the Book! You have nothing to stand on unless you observe the Torah, the Gospel, and what has been revealed to you from your Lord.” And your Lord’s revelation to you ˹O Prophet˺ will only cause many of them to increase in wickedness and disbelief. So do not grieve for the people who disbelieve. 5:70 Indeed, We took a covenant from the Children of Israel and sent them messengers. Whenever a messenger came to them with what they did not desire, they denied some and killed others. 5:78 The disbelievers among the Children of Israel were condemned in the revelations of David and Jesus, son of Mary. That was for their disobedience and violations. Cursed not condemned. 5:82 You will surely find the most bitter towards the believers to be the Jews and polytheists and the most gracious to be those who call themselves Christians. The word bitter is adawah in Arabic should be hostile. -
Trying to understand this as I’m not an Abrahamic…
Vajra Mind replied to Zorro Dantes's topic in Abrahamic Religions Discussion
Let’s start… Cute verse that some people use as a sign of moderation in Quran without taking full context: 5:69 Indeed, the believers, Jews, Sabians and Christians—whoever ˹truly˺ believes in Allah and the Last Day and does good, there will be no fear for them, nor will they grieve. This verse is abrogated by the following verse: 3:85 Whoever seeks a way other than Islam, it will never be accepted from them, and in the Hereafter they will be among the losers. The previous verse is from Surah 3 (named “Household of Imram” mostly about Jews) it is also preceded by more relevant verses, let’s take them one by one: 3:19 Certainly, Allah’s only Way is Islam. Those who were given the Scripture did not dispute ˹among themselves˺ out of mutual envy until knowledge came to them. Whoever denies Allah’s signs, then surely Allah is swift in reckoning. Islam is the only way. Islam means submission. Verb Aslama (past), Yoslim (present). 3:20 So if they argue with you ˹O Prophet˺, say, “I have submitted myself to Allah, and so have my followers.” And ask those who were given the Scripture and the illiterate ˹people˺, “Have you submitted yourselves ˹to Allah˺?” If they submit, they will be ˹rightly˺ guided. But if they turn away, then your duty is only to deliver ˹the message˺. And Allah is All-Seeing of ˹His˺ servants. People of the scripture same as people of the book (Jews and Christians) 3:23 Have you not seen those who were given a portion of the Scriptures? Yet when they are invited to the Book of Allah to settle their disputes, some of them turn away heedlessly. They are called (not invited) to the book of Allah! 3:31 Say, ˹O Prophet,˺ “If you ˹sincerely˺ love Allah, then follow me; Allah will love you and forgive your sins. For Allah is All-Forgiving, Most Merciful.” Quran is telling Jews to follow Mohammed 3:45 ˹Remember˺ when the angels proclaimed, “O Mary! Allah gives you good news of a Word from Him, his name will be the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary; honored in this world and the Hereafter, and he will be one of those nearest ˹to Allah˺. We are still in the same Surah and it continue after few verses: 3:49 and ˹make him˺ a messenger to the Children of Israel to proclaim I have come to you with a sign from your Lord: I will make for you a bird from clay, breathe into it, and it will become a ˹real˺ bird—by Allah’s Will Jesus is also prophet and messenger of Allah to the Jews! 3:50 And I will confirm the Torah revealed before me and legalize some of what had been forbidden to you Jesus has his own Sharia Law and he will legalize few things, so how did Jews respond? 3:53 When Jesus sensed disbelief from his people, he asked, “Who will stand up with me for Allah?” The disciples replied, “We will stand up for Allah. We believe in Allah, so bear witness that we have submitted.” Jews rejected Jesus the prophet of Allah to them! 3:54 And the disbelievers made a plan ˹against Jesus˺, but Allah also planned—and Allah is the best of planners. Not only Jews rejected Jesus but made a plan against him. 3:55 ˹Remember˺ when Allah said, “O Jesus! I will take you and raise you up to Myself. I will deliver you from those who disbelieve, and elevate your followers above the disbelievers until the Day of Judgment. Then to Me you will ˹all˺ return, and I will settle all your disputes. Allah has saved Jesus from the Jews, then what?? 3:56 As for those who disbelieve, I will subject them to a severe punishment in this life and the Hereafter, and they will have no helpers. Do Jews believe in Jesus now that Quran has revealed this? Are they going to be punished? 3:67 Abraham was neither a Jew nor a Christian; he submitted in all uprightness and was not a polytheist. Why compare Abraham faith? Are Jews and Christians polytheists?? Yes, they called polytheists in a different other verses, we will come to that later. 3:68 Indeed, those who have the best claim to Abraham are his followers, this Prophet, and the believers. And Allah is the Guardian of those who believe. 3:69 Some of the People of the Book wish to mislead you ˹believers˺. They mislead none but themselves, yet they fail to perceive it. 3:70 O People of the Book! Why do you reject the signs of Allah while you bear witness ˹to their truth˺? 3:71 O People of the Book! Why do you mix the truth with falsehood and hide the truth knowingly? What are the Jews rejecting and hiding? It is mentioned in other verses later. while the rest of the verses continue on accusing groups of Jews of conspiracies against Muslims. 3:84 Say, ˹O Prophet,˺ “We believe in Allah and what has been revealed to us and what was revealed to Abraham, Ishmael, Isaac, Jacob, and his descendants; and what was given to Moses, Jesus, and other prophets from their Lord—we make no distinction between any of them, and to Him we ˹fully˺ submit.” This is the Islamic belief and as a result: 3:85 Whoever seeks a way other than Islam, it will never be accepted from them, and in the Hereafter they will be among the losers. This is followed by this verse: 3:86 How will Allah guide a people who chose to disbelieve after they had believed, acknowledged the Messenger to be true, and received clear proofs? For Allah does not guide the wrongdoing people. Who are the ones who disbelieved after they have believed in that context so far? Pagans or Jews or ex-Muslims? This is their punishment: 3:87 Their reward is that they will be condemned by Allah, the angels, and all of humanity. Dishonest translation the word is La’an means cursed. 3:93 All food was lawful for the children of Israel, except what Israel made unlawful for himself before the Torah was revealed. Say, ˹O Prophet,˺ “Bring the Torah and read it, if your claims are true.” 3:94 Then whoever still fabricates lies about Allah, they will be the ˹true˺ wrongdoers. 3:95 Say, ˹O Prophet,˺ “Allah has declared the truth. So follow the Way of Abraham, the upright—who was not a polytheist.” Again, Quran says again Abraham is not polytheist after a verse talking about Jews. 3:110 You are the best community ever raised for humanity—you encourage good, forbid evil, and believe in Allah. Had the People of the Book believed, it would have been better for them. Some of them are faithful, but most are rebellious. Poor translation. You were not are. Best nation not community and in Islamic sources it means the Islamic nation because the following verse confirms it. 3:111 They can never inflict harm on you, except a little annoyance. But if they meet you in battle, they will flee and they will have no helpers. The people of the book (Jews mainly) from the context, cannot inflict harm on you Muslims. 3:112 They will be stricken with disgrace wherever they go, unless they are protected by a covenant with Allah or a treaty with the people. They have invited the displeasure of Allah and have been branded with misery for rejecting Allah’s revelations and murdering ˹His˺ prophets unjustly. This is ˹a fair reward˺ for their disobedience and violations. 3:113 Yet they are not all alike: there are some among the People of the Book who are upright, who recite Allah’s revelations throughout the night, prostrating ˹in prayer˺. One moderate verse. Are they the same as the disbelievers who rejected Jesus?? Are they converts to Islam?? Let’s see more verses. 3:114 They believe in Allah and the Last Day, encourage good and forbid evil, and race with one another in doing good. They are ˹truly˺ among the righteous. A second moderate verse. Are they the same as the disbelievers who rejected Jesus?? Are they converts to Islam?? Let’s see more verses. 3:181 Indeed, Allah has heard those ˹among the Jews˺ who said, “Allah is poor; we are rich!” We have certainly recorded their slurs and their killing of prophets unjustly. Then We will say, “Taste the torment of burning! 3:199 Indeed, there are some among the People of the Book who truly believe in Allah and what has been revealed to you ˹believers˺ and what was revealed to them. They humble themselves before Allah—never trading Allah’s revelations for a fleeting gain. Their reward is with their Lord. Surely Allah is swift in reckoning. Are those converts? Do they believe in Jesus as revealed in Quran?? -
Trying to understand this as I’m not an Abrahamic…
Vajra Mind replied to Zorro Dantes's topic in Abrahamic Religions Discussion
Hi Daniel, I have read what you posted and need to emphasize few points beforehand: 1. Please try to stick to verses with less personal interpretations. I will stick to Quran verses because you seem to depend mainly on them rather than Hadith, reasons of revelation, Sirah and Tafseer. 2. You mentioned context, this is very important so please be mindful about that because your assessment lacks context, consistency and mostly cherry picking plus assumptions. 3. You mentioned Dr. Shenaz Shaik and put a link about her biography, she is a medical doctor and she seems from Asian origin so she is neither native Arab nor Islamic scholar. Look at the translation of this verse which you posted for example: The Arabic word is Sodoor which is chests not breasts. May HaShem help me:) In any case do not worry about the translation, I will correct it whenever required. https://quran.com/2?startingVerse=106 2:106 “If we ever abrogate a verse or cause it to be forgotten, we replace it with a better or similar one. Do you not know that Allah is Most Capable of everything?” There is a nice footnote pointing to the Chronology and Abrogation of Quran verses. Quran was revealed over 23 years. 10 years in Mecca when Mohammed did not have an army, and 13 years in Madinah when he had an army. This is the footnote from the link: “The Quran was revealed over a period of twenty-three years. New rules were introduced when the believers were ready to accept and apply them. Replacing a ruling with another is called abrogation (naskh). For example, alcohol consumption was forbidden over three stages (see 2:219, 4:43, and 5:90, respectively). Some of the Prophet’s companions said, “If drinking had been forbidden from day one, no one would have accepted Islam!” -
Trying to understand this as I’m not an Abrahamic…
Vajra Mind replied to Zorro Dantes's topic in Abrahamic Religions Discussion
Hi Daniel, Fair questions. I am ex-muslim Arab. Arabic is my first language. I made many khatmas in my life (that is reading Quran cover to cover) and I have read early Tafsir books and Hadith of both Sunni and Shia sects because my father was Sunni and my mother was Shia so I am familiar with both major sects of Islam. When I was a teen I was introduced to Sufism (Irfan in Shia) by a Persian guru with psychic powers/Siddhis who comes from a famous lineage in Iran. I loved my path but later I faced troubles with Islamic dogma when I started reading more Quran and tafsir and sirah from both Sunni and Shia sources. One of the issues was I couldn't tolerate the hate in Quran and Islamic traditions towards other religions and nations. It was a painful experience to leave Sufism (Irfan) since I had first hand experience of Siddhis which many people would only hear about in stories but not actually witness it. There are also reasons why some Sufists where executed and crucified during Islamic Khilafa related to the origin of Sufisim in Islam but that would be a different topic. I am in peace with my decision because I believe I made the right moral decision. I didn't run out of luck as destiny put me at different path with wonderful Guru and teachings including Kabbalah and Buddhism. By the way if your are using English translation of Quran rather than Arabic version, then I am afraid to tell you that I have seen some translation and they are dishonest. I look forward to see your quotes and responding to them accordingly. -
Trying to understand this as I’m not an Abrahamic…
Vajra Mind replied to Zorro Dantes's topic in Abrahamic Religions Discussion
I am sorry Daniel. I think your knowledge of Islam and Quran is weak. Islam and Quran propose the following: Quran cursed Jews 9 times and promised them that their will come people (devoted muslims) who will eliminate Jews. Quran accused Jews of killing prophets. Quran accused Jews of calling Uzair son of God as Christians called Jesus is son of God. Jews are no longer the chosen people, they are replaced by Muslims. Before Islam, Arabian peninsula had Jews, Christians and pagans living in peace. Even Christians heretics who feared persecution found safe heaven in Arabia. After Islam no body was safe, there was continuous bloodshed for 1400 years until today. Islam is not a tolerant religion. I really fear that one day they will eliminate Buddhism and Dharma. I do not wish to elaborate further or add all the relevant verses from Quran because I do not want to create negative emotions. -
Esoteric vs Non-Esoteric Meditation Traditions
Vajra Mind replied to Robin's topic in Buddhist Discussion
Unlike you I was not initiated into Dzogchen or any Buddhist system. My understanding of Buddhism comes from comparing Buddhism with outsider systems which I have been initiated into. So I can share my humble opinion only: Enlightened state of Dzogchen or natural state of mind can not be transmitted because it is beyond ordinary mind yet it is in every sentient being. In Dzogchen, Rigpa is introduced (special feature in Dzogchen) not transmitted. During the introduction ceremony you either recognize this Rigpa, then being always mindful of this Rigpa is your daily practice. This practice is called "Treckcho". Not recognizing Rigpa , then the guru needs to introduce you to other mind based practices to increase receptive/perception faculty to explore your natural state. It is only true Treckcho/Dzogchen practice if you recognize Rigpa on the spot and integrate it in your daily life. Most Dzogchen practitioners are practicing mind based meditations to discover their natural state that is not true Treckcho/Dzogchen. What is transmitted through these initiations and magical mantras are mind based qualities such as siddhis and capacity/perception/receptive faculty. What is Rigpa? I can only give a conceptual example of it. You are lost in a dark network of tunnels and outside this complex tunnels is sunlight. If you recognize the very subtle sunlight ray (Rigpa) passing through the tunnels and make it your guide (path) to the outside sunlight (natural state) then by observing it and following it you eventually reach sunlight, otherwise if you dont recognize this then you need to walk in the darkness of the tunnels bumping here and there (mind based practices) till your reach the end of the tunnel where is the sunlight of your natural state. So this is one of the reason why Dzogchen is unique because ground, path and result has always been the same since the begining of the practice which is this sunlight in this example. Disadvantages of Dzogchen: Out of thousands people introduced to Rigpa, how many did recognized it? How can you tell if your guru has realized his own natural state and is able to introduce you to Rigpa? Dzogchen might be a highly advanced teaching which requires building capacity to be successful at it. Theravada teachings can offer you great foundation to build capacity for themselves or for Dzogchen such as practicing morality (including compassion), concentration (four Jhanas) to realize wisdom/insight. I dont understand what you mean by this. Are you saying he has siddhis? If yes this could be a good sign, he has some realization. I have learned to make my own judgments rather than believing what others think of themselves. But regarding Guru Yoga. If you are lucky enough to find a truly realized compassionate master who accept you and then doing genuine Guru Yoga with his permission means you will acquire many of his faculties which facilitate recognizing natural state of mind. We can not be certain of that. Scholars like Dr. Allan Wallace emphasize importance of Shamata for dzogchen. In my humble opinion try to blend in more practices if you have got time as I mentioned earlier Theravada practices of morality and Jhanas are great. I know many people including me are struggling. -
I see. Thank you tao.te.kat for your time and efforts. I am going to contemplate on what you have mentioned.
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Indeed. Rigpa is an example gnosis/wisdom, after recognizing it through direct introduction by a Dzogchen lineage holder realized master, practitioner need to relax in that state 24/7, this is the practice of Treckcho. That is why I assume a realized master should also realize the atomic body eventually at the end of his/her life if he/she has recognized Rigpa and integrate that state in his/her daily life over many years. Otherwise if he/she is incompetent in that state how can he/she introduce it to his/her students?! I doubt it but again I am just speculating. I dont think it is healthy to compare the Bodhisattvas stages/paths to Dzogchen. Path of seeing is realizing emptiness not Rigpa. Rigpa is special feature of Dzogchen. Bodhisattvas on the path of seeing are not necessarily Dzogchen practitioners. Some scholars equate third vision of Thogal to the path of seeing, but Treckcho progression is not comparable Bodhisattvas stages.
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Hi steve, thank you for your reply. I like to think in your way but as far as I know Dzogchen scholars/masters insists that it must be a lineage holder master who can point out Rigpa to you since this example gnosis/wisdom is special feature of Dzogchen. Once recognized you job is to relax in that state 24/7. Therefore, I assume a lineage master who has realized his natural state is a must.
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Ammm. I honestly dont know, but I have always thought of this as blind leading the blind. Because if a non realized master can introduce you to Rigpa, then I assume so does books. I could be wrong.
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Thanks for the link. Yes, pages from 82 to 85 in "The Practice of Dzogchen" by Longchenpa associate Atomic body to Trekcho practice. I have another two sources from Bonpo Dzogchen: Page 129 from "Bonpo Dzogchen Teaching" by Lopon Tenzin Namdak "Through the practice of Theckchod alone it is possible to realize the body of atoms (rdul lus) where the material body dissolves into the atoms. (rdul) of its constituent elements, and then these disappear into space leaving nothing visible behind. However, there is still some substances (albeit atoms) remaining , although this is invisible to the eye. But this is not what is meant by the Rainbow Body" Page 77 from "Heart Drops of Dharmakaya" by Shardza Tashi Gyaltsen "In Trekcho the body cannot become the light body—it can only be made to disappear to the level of the atoms. There are many systems to make the physical body disappear, such as the temporary illusory body. Even in the practice of shamata the physical body can disappear. But they are not true or final. Togel, however, completely transforms the physical body into pure light. If you don't achieve the rainbow body then you do not achieve the final body. Likewise, if you do not achieve the Great Rainbow Body you have not achieved the final Buddhahood. In Togel all your physical body and the objects that you share go into the rainbow body"
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Hi tao.te.kat Thank you for your reply and link to the interesting article. In my earlier post, I have intentionally avoided the terms "rainbow body" and "Thogal". I am aware that rainbow body is attained from Thogal practice of Dzogchen. Thogal is done after a practitioner has stabilized his Treckcho Practice. It is rare phenomena and meant for the best of the best practitioners. Meanwhile realization in Treckcho is associated with Atomic body. My question is pertaining to Trekcho which is the main practice done by all Dzogchen practitioners. the reason I am asking is that Dzogchen initiation is dependent on Direct Introduction of Rigpa from master to student. Given the fact that there are perhaps hundreds if not thousands of dzogchen westren partitioners including lamas and teachers with no reported Atomic body leads me to speculate the followings: 1. There is No realized master. Therefore can't appropriately introduce student to Rigpa. 2. Students lack receptive faculty. There is a missing practice that need to be done to make students receptive. 3. Both of the above. 4. There is no such thing as Atomic body or that Atomic body is also related to Thogal not to Treckcho. In any case, the matter is worth investigating further, it will be of great help to current Dzogchen practitioners and future students.
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Thank you Mandrake and wish you the best in life. Dr. Yannis seemed important to me because he received a clear calling by Dzogchen guardians in vision, this perhaps could be a sign that he is worthy person! I never had visions but had few dreams seems related to Padmasambhava and Dzogchen. I have lots of gaps in my knowledge and try to fill in these gaps with lots of reading, discussing and practicing. I my case I have also migrated from more than one system to another but Buddhist teachings on nature of reality, emptiness, noble truths convinced me of this path 100%. Yet there are still lurking questions and gaps within me. I have posted another thread on why among the many Dzogchen practitioners in the west, the atomic body of Treckcho has not been reported yet?
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Most people search for wisdom teaching and once they find it, they devote themselves for it. However, in the case of Dr Yannis Toussulis, it was the other way around, Dzogchen teachings found him. Dr Yannis Toussulis had a lucid dream of Ekajati (the principal guardian of the Dzogchen) pointing to him to practice under Khenchen Palden Sherab Rinpoche and take a form of Vajrakilaya Yidam. He practiced under Khen Rimpoche for a while but then he converted to Sufism (Qadri Rifai) later and left Dzogchen practice. Do you think his good fortune because of past lives karmic connections? How would moving through different schools affect spiritual progress?
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Thank you stirling. That was helpful. I wish you the best too.
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What about any Tibetan Dzogchen monk living Westren countries, were there any atomic body manifestation reported? Thanks
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Thank you all for the warm welcome.
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Hi all, I am new member to this forum. Interested in Buddhism, Taoism and Spirituality. I am not good with technology/forums and longest I stayed in any forum was less than one year, but I hope this forum to be an exception.
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Hi stirling. Thank you for your reply. I agree with you in that good intentions is a good start but also good thoughts, good speech and good deeds. They purify our minds to perceive high truths. However, I believe that all this good stuff is tainted and impure because they are rooted in the SELF, the "I". Thinking "I will benefit all sentient beings" might cause further clinging to and solidification of the "I" and "others". Truly pure merits can only come after the "I" have long gone "Anatman", In such being there is no calculated EGO or "I", the good deeds comes out spontaneously just like the Sun being impersonal without "I" without "me" and "them" does shine at all beings without discrimination without fear or desire. I initially was attracted to Buddhism by the Dzogchen/Vajrayana/Mahayana but upon further contemplation, I have noticed that they are too dense with myths and dogmas. Even their followers seemed to me to have total blind faith just like Abrahamic religious fanatics (Sufism and Kabbalah included) that I run away from. Let me share some of the things I read from great scholars of Dzogchen: Just studying and understanding Dzogchen you are somehow saved. Arahants have incomplete or less enlightment than Mahayanist Bodhisattvas and they will be saved by Buddhas Virupa miracle making the Sun stand still (just like Jewish Jashua Sun miracle standing still or Muslim Ali Bin Abe Talib returning the Sun all can be refuted historically for such cosmic event never took place). Buddhafeilds Dzogchen is the only vehicle for irreversible Buddhahood. Boddhisattvas vows not to go Nirvana until the last sentient being is saved. The list goes much longer...... When I look around I see a universe that doesn't give a dime about our enlightenment let alone Bodhisattvas delaying or controlling their own fate, especially that Buddha himself was omniscient not omnipotent and this is perhaps why you find protectors of the teachings are usually long living subjugated/converted spirits not Boddhisattvas themselves who made vows to enlighten all sentient beings. In summary, I currently feel more inclined to the original Buddhas teachings (Theravada school) as they make more sense to me. But I like to hear from you or from anyone else if I have flaws in my understanding or thinking.