Apotheose

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Maybe @Nungali, @NaturaNaturans and @snowymountains would want to give their perspectives on this. I’m sure you’d add much to the discussion.

Yes … “newbie” things from here… Just after I posted it I realised it is on “Daoist Discussion” and I’m saying things related to Western Esotericism

Well, in my perspective, I consider Alchemy as being the process of transforming the “base metal” of ignorance into the “gold” of Knowledge. Some methodologies are logical and some are illogical - in a sense that you may or may not rationally understand what is happening. I can see that your tradition offers a logical explanation of attaining “gold”. An example of a tradition who does not offer that would be some strands of Yoga. You don’t actually understand logically what is truly happening - as you just described from your tradition -, you just practice it with discipline and start experiencing shifts of consciousness and maturing. So my answer would be that I have had experiences in traditions which do not offer such logical explanations, but just a methodology for you to practice and get better. About Qi Gong… I really don’t want to be a killjoy here… But I’m still very new to the forum and still can’t discern what is a joke and what’s not… … But seeing someone saying it is a placebo and insinuating he is one of the few in the world who can explain it seems very suspect to me. Be always careful about people who point fingers at your esoteric practices, generally these kind of comments are full of egoistic repressed feelings. I am totally ignorant about Qi Gong and have never practiced it, but i guarantee you that comments like these are - per se - very suspect, regardless of what tradition they are from. Qi Gong is a traditional practice, and someone saying it’s not legitimate in a forum is a red flag. Keep up your practices if they are bringing results to you.

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Dear fellow, I’m assuming you are honest and that you really have experienced bad symptoms as a consequence of a bad particular practice. Firstly, nothing of what you are talking about is as dangerous as you think it is. It is still completely reversible. But simply do not do it again. All kinds of esoteric “Arts” must be done with the guidance of either a School, a Teacher or an authentic and accepted fraternity. Do not, ever, self-initiate yourself except if you are linked to a school who takes self-initiation as an element of their methodology. And, most important, never modify a practice that was authentically taught to you. For now, simply stop practicing mysticism until you get affiliated to an accepted and traditional Order. I suggest you going out and walking barefoot in soil, also going to the gym or practicing a sport, and also listening to music. I wish you all the best!

I was not aware of that reformation from Zoroaster and Miwoche. Very interesting. I think we are on the same page regarding sacrifices. For me, offerings and thanksgiving rituals that include beautiful flowers, food that smells good, and fragrant aroma like incense (I knew you would mention the incense ) are a good way of expressing gratitude to the Creator. Personally, I’m more familiar with thanking through prayer, but I would definitely feel great to participate in these beautiful rituals. On the other hand, those sacrifices which were done in the Old Testament, for example, are something of which I’ve never managed to truly understand the logic behind. Like those described in Leviticus 9. Some cultured people explain that humanity, in that era, thought that “giving back” the spirit of an animal to the Creator would be a form of expressing gratitude. Others explain that blood - per se - attracted the Divine Providence. For me neither of them make any sense whatsoever. I guess it’s because we are in different times, with different minds, with different interpretations of the Divine? I honestly have no clue... If you happen to know if there are more explanations regarding the logic behind those sacrifices, I’d love to know. I remember once reading a christian text that presented the idea that sacrifices were common in the past because people were more brutal. And after Christ they replaced sacrifices with Love.

I’m glad it resonated with you, my friend. Well, in my perspective, Jesus being tempted by the devil right after being baptized may signify the process of purification. When the Light ‘comes to stay’ in one’s consciousness, a process of internal purification begins, because now the individual takes part in the Ultimate Journey to become more and more pure in God’s Essence. To be honest, this process of purification is inevitable, because the Light automatically impels the gradual change of one’s desires, thoughts, acts etc. That’s why one needs to search for a secure path of enlightenment that provides a gradual methodology of progressing in the Light. Because it is normal that after the so called “awakening”, some probations and trials occur in one’s mind, because they mean that the ‘veils of ignorance’ are being taken off of one’s ‘eyes’. That’s basically the same meaning of my intro post - that you seem to have liked - since the process of ‘becoming a child again’ is the process of ‘forgetting’ the nonsenses we learned; and that process can be - at a few particular times - painful and challenging, since one is resigning some deep mental beliefs who became a part of the personality. So, Jesus became Christ in the baptism and now some of his natural human feelings are being purged, and his character is being cleansed by the Father. And the fact that in Matthew 4:1 it is said that Jesus follows the [Holy] Spirit to the desert to be tempted implies that it was something guided by The Father and a necessary step in his Path. I mentioned that this was not a story but a ‘lesson’ because I personally see this part of the Holy Bible as being a metaphor, not something that literally happened. Fasting for 40 days could be interpreted as one of those trials I mentioned. And, most important, the devil tempting Jesus can be interpreted as Doubt. It is a clever metaphor. Jesus Christ doubting himself and The Father is clearly a natural and normal symptom of the process of purification. Feeling Doubt is an emotional hint that The Father wants the Son to get rid of Doubt, because there’s no doubt in the Logos, in the Word, in the Truth. So, basically, the devil can be interpreted as Jesus overcoming doubt/fear/other human emotions. And not just Jesus, but every human being have heaven and hell inside their minds. They are, in my view, states of consciousness; heaven being e.g. the trust in God’s will, and hell/devil being any kind of fear based emotion etc.

Yes, that is a very fair description of the intro post! The ideal scenario would be being as open-hearted and pure as children are but still grounded in reality with the pertinent abilities of an adult, just as you stated. An equilibrium. And for that we are learning and evolving . Regarding Sadhguru, he has his own Foundation, called Isha, for people who want to practice Yoga. He has also a channel in Youtube, which has some of his very insightful speeches, and I suggest you watching some of them, maybe it will interest you. People who are fond of the Psychological Sciences tend to like what he says about human psychology. Although I’m not initiated in his tradition yet, I know people who are, and they are very down to earth and inspirational people. He has one ‘open to the public’ guided Kriya Yoga practice (akin to meditation) on Youtube called Isha Kriya, it’s a very good practice. Thank you very much for the links, I’ll access them all .

Perfect! Memory has its good and bad sides. Given that people learn - as they mature - about the need to be socially accepted, they tend to develop an anxious mind. Anxiety and every other unpleasant state of mind is essentially based on Fear. Mainly fear of being inadequate. So, for most people, the mind matures in a sort of urge to ‘not fail’ instead of ‘constructing’. Thus, they suffer when they remember their mistakes, unless they learn how to live in the present disregarding the past, which is a challenge. The good side is that memory underpins imagination. Imagination is only possible due to Memory, because thinking is - ultimately - the association of ideas. One can only ratiocinate by associating past experiences. And considering that imagination is the key to building a pleasant life, and that Memory is the basis of Imagination, we can conclude that Memory is a blessing. I’d suggest you watching anything that Sadhguru has to say regarding Memory. It really opened my mind. He is a very wise mystic and has legitimate credentials in the Yogic Tradition.

Yes, I’m familiar with Sophia. It’s not that strong of an overall attribute of Christianity but Its symbolism as the Feminine is indubitable. But in my previous comment I just wanted to point out that the Feminine is generally overlooked. I genuinely found your experience with the Divine Feminine very interesting; I’m sure it was something incredible to experience. My time to entangle that much with the Feminine has not come yet, but I’ve had akin experiences. I remember once having inspirations of what maternal Love was like. The Feminine Love is different from everything; it is sheer abrogation and admiration. Contemplating the symbol of the pelican feeding its offsprings with her own flesh is something that sometimes moves me to tears. The Feminine is truly fascinating; it is a misfortune that contemporary societies do not comprehend it that much. Man is given the gift of awareness and still does not stop and have a look at the deepness of a woman’s eyes, it’s a shame. There’s so much inside those eyes. And it’s also a shame that the ‘purely-religious’ path seems to not be something that can provide that level of awareness and appreciation for their followers. And, regarding your experience, and also Lustration, I’d like to hear your opinion about something. Considering that ancient Lustration rites involved sacrifices, I’d like to know what do you think of sacrifices in general (thanksgiving, offerings, lustration etc.) from an esoteric standpoint. Do they have indeed a practical meaning in mysticism or are they just that meaningful within the ‘intellect’s bounds? Regarding the ‘principles’ you mentioned being personified, I often conclude that it might have occured due to Man wanting to outsource his responsibility as a Creator to external Beings/Gods. That much likely did not follow a chronological line - as most primitive religions of early Homo sapiens believed in the separation between Man and that which they comprehended as God -, but perhaps at a given moment Man got aware of his/her divine abilities and resigned them. Maybe it’s because it’s too much of a responsibility? Interesting to meditate about! The fact is - as you stated - human faculties were personified as Gods, and that might be one of the causes of Man unconsciously being a slave of the ups and downs of Duality. What had been truly a mental dynamic later became Ahura Mazda and Angra Mainyu, Christ and Satan and much others. And hence Man resigned his/her responsibility to having both of them inside their minds. The time devil tempted Jesus is, in my view, not a story, but a ‘lesson’ about the principles you referred to.

I’d have to agree with you, Nungali, for the 100th time. In my opinion, ruling out the Feminine is one of the biggest flaws in abrahamic religions. The idea that there is a ‘Father’ in the sky waiting for us is, in my view, a big naivety. Of course Christianism is incredibly beautiful, but it has its flaws. Considering Mary as the ‘Feminine Chunk” of God does not make sense for me. The Almighty God, the Father, is definitely a Male figure in Christianism, and Mary is not a part of Deus (the Trinity; latin for “God”). I’m obviously in minority here, but I consider that Christ was born in the Baptism of Jesus - as a consequence of the advent of the Holy Spirit. So Mary did not give birth to Jesus Christ, but just to Jesus. Jesus was of course an Illuminated man and supposedly an Initiate, but he was not a Christ until the baptism. So Mary is not a form of Divinity in Christianism - in my view -, but rather a vehicle for the birth of a “chosen one” who later would become the Christ, the Father in human form. But even if we consider Jesus as being born as Christ already, Mary still would not be exactly a form of the Divinity. She does not take part in the Trinity, and therefore she is not the “feminine correspondent” of The Father. So, in conclusion, it’s clear that the Feminine was subdued in Christianism.

I share your opinion on that; humanity would be much more aware of the innate powers of the Counsciousness if there weren’t so many ingrained dogmas in their mind which are provided by religion. There’s indeed a lot of power and beauty in christianism, as you said. The Gospel of John is definitely the most mystical and esoteric part of the Bible. Many authors have shared their opinion on the time Jesus said that “blasphemy against the Spirit is unforgiveable”. Personally, the one I find the most logical and sensible is Saint Augustine’s view of it. Its meaning is actually not that deep as some christian strands make it seems to be. Considering that the [Holy] Spirit is what connects the Father to His Son(s), and the Spirit is what enlightens the ignorant person and turns them into a redeemed one, blaspheming against It would simply mean absolute unbelief in ‘Redemption’, ‘Enlightenment’, ‘Illumination’ or any other mystical term that means the reconnection between man and the Divine. To deny the Spirit would mean to not believe in the Divine to begin with. And the reason it is “unforgiveable” is an obviousness, it’s because a non-believer can never be Redeemed. The atheist can never get fully immerse in God’s Essence because he, unconsciously, lives by the oscillations of human desires and social circumstances. It is “unforgivable” because the person who is yet ignorant of God’s Existence and Benevolence can never be enlightened by Him and will never enter the Kingdom of Heaven until he discovers Him. About the quote you brought up, when Jesus says “the Kingdom of Heaven is in your midst”, some people believe he is reffering to the Pineal Gland. That is supported by the fact that Jesus was crucified in a place called Calvary, or Golgotha Hill. If I remember it correctly, Golghota means “Skull” in Aramaic, and “Calva” means “Skull” in latin. It’s metaphorical and also a minority between christian scholars, but the hint that the Kingdom of Heaven is in “your midst” and Jesus being crucified in a skull-shaped place, induces the idea of the “skull’s midst”.

You are indeed in minority, and so am I, because that is one of my views of it as well. That is the same interpretation of great christians like rosicrucian Neville Goddard. He views John 10:30 as an allusion to the divine spark in every human soul/mind/body. He was involved with the Kabbalah as well. John 10:30 - “I and My Father are One” But for me, the “Son” would symbolize both humanity and the Christ. Humanity being ‘drops of the Ocean’, which contain the same substance of the Father and the Holy Spirit; and the Christ being exactly the Father, but in human form, like Jesus Christ was, to fulfill a particular duty as an incarnate being. And the Holy Spirit would be the intermediary, the connector between the Father and the Son. It would be the Fire that renovates/ressurects one’s counsciousness, which thus free it from ignorance and presents it with the Eternal Light. The Catholic Church does not agree with that. They view John 10:30 as a relationship between only Jesus Christ and The Father. Answering your question, it would be probably heretical, yes, to believe as we do, but you shouldn’t waste your time thinking about that. You can believe anything you want, and should.

Sorry for that. What I meant is that there’s no natural correlation between esotericism and mental health problems. If there are any people who became psychotic from esoteric practices, it must be due to mispractice of it. And the mispractice would mean that: as there are traditions which present methods that engender very sudden and strong fluxes of energy, it would not be recommended to practice them without the guidance of a teacher or school. I’ve never studied the Rishis, but I’ve read something similar about some of the Catholic Church’s Saints. Although they were naturally very “talented” for spirituality and already pretty high on the Path to enlightenment, they experienced very dark periods which are known as the Dark Night of the Soul. In my speculative view - and from the things I read about it -, it seems that the Dark Night of the Soul is a phenomenon that happens with people who are ‘almost Masters’ - meaning that they are very high on the Path, and not “normal seekers” anymore. It seems to be ‘the last trial’ of a mystic, and it is generally related to Ego’s Death. Perhaps they’re the most painful experiences because the counsciousness may be disconnecting from the Ego, and therefore that means absolute resignation of one’s very deep ingrained beliefs. So what I mean is, these Ego/Egoless trials - despite being very painful - are indeed, for some people, a step in the Great Journey. However, that has nothing to do with mental disorders, like psychosis and others. Psychosis can never be a step in the Path of Enlightenment. I don’t think anyone would be happy to develop mental disorders as a biproduct of something that was originally a desire for Peace and Self-Mastery. So, if there really are ‘bad practices’ out there, we should just rule them out and call them “bullshit” instead of “esotericism”. Sorry for the bad language. And the ‘good practices’, we must always practice them with the guidance of a teacher until further instructions.

In my opinion, blue eyed snake ended the discussion in this comment above that I quoted. He is absolutely right. There’s no need to delve into the ‘causes’, but just practice it correctly with someone who knows what they’re doing.

I get what you’re saying. Indeed, if a person is not completely “turned” (like Moses, Jesus, Paramahansa Yogananda etc. were), there’s still room for the Ego and its pertinent “dark” feelings. Egoistic feelings are opposite to the ultimate “enlightenment” (Samadhi), that’s why the Great Masters reached a point where they would not act with their Ego at all, but just for truly salutary reasons and for the benefit of others. So, I would totally agree with you about that. However, that doen’t apply to mental health problems. If a person is not yet “fully enlightened”, that does not mean that there’s still room for mental heath problems like psychosis, mania or schizophrenia. One thing has no remote correlation with the other. Esotericism is a secure path.

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Considering I have no idea of what Tummo is, I’m sure you definitely know much more than I do about it. So I’d have no reason to doubt you. But keep in mind that there’s no such thing as a need to be medically trained, because legitimate and accepted lineages of esotericism are not dangerous at all. Since the very basis of the ‘seek for enlightenment’ journey is the desire to be comfortable living under your own skin and achieving Peace, it wouldn’t make sense to consider as “authentic esotericism” a tradition/practice which will likely give you mental health problems. Therefore, there’s no such thing as a need to evaluate a risk/reward ratio to make a choice about practicing something. If you ever happen to hear that some esoteric practice does have a RISK, simply do not do it. Esotericism should not have any risks!!!!!!!! A pupil who studies and practices from an authentic mystery school or teacher (not a “guru”) has no need to be remotely afraid of developing psychosis. All it takes is talking to other mystics and investigating to test if X or Y or Z is a legitimate tradition or not. p.s.: of course “making contact with intermediate beings”, “incorporating non-incarnated spirits” or any other kind of EXOTERIC practices can lead to health risks even if made with the support of an exoteric school, since you are not dealing with yourself but rather with ‘external forces’. On the other hand, as I said, ESOTERIC practices should never be considered as dangerous. And if so, their tradition must be heavily doubted and heavily investigated.

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As far as I know - and I’m not into Eastern Mysticism apart from Yoga so I might be inaccurate -, the so caled “Kundalini Awakening” is not an specific esoteric practice or school. It is actually a phenomenon that symbolizes the awakening of Kundalini (the Godess) in one’s counsciousness, which would correspond to a degree of “evolution”, or “enlightenment”, or “opening the third eye”, or any other mystical terminology you want to use. Thus, saying that “Kundalini Awakening” is fake or that it’s “not a path to enlightenment” would not make sense in my personal view, as it represents a natural step in one’s journey, regardless of what tradition he belongs to. I’m definitely not aware if there are any gurus or schools apprehending the term “Kundalini” to insinuate that their tradition leads to the “true kundalini awakening”. I truly hope not… I’ve seen even rosicrucians talking about Kundalini as though they were familiar to it. What I’ve seen is: people tend to develop some kind of psychotic conditions due to MISPRACTICE of esotericism. Some practice it without a teacher or without an authentic school, and then they start to become delusional and attribute that to the so called “Kundalini Awakening”, when - actually - the cause of that was their unfortunate life choices of falling for internet gurus and fake mystics all around the internet, rather than seeking out a legitimate Path.

Wow, what a profound insight… thank you for that, really.

Despite the discussion is not about “white magic”, I’d only point out that I don’t think it would be accurate to consider as ‘Magi’ only those people who want to sell their services to the public. In this topic, I mean Magic in lato sensu. For example: some western esoteric orders consider Jesus to have been a “white magus”, apart from being a Christ; since he supposedly had contact with the Essenes and was initiated to the Mysteries. Or, similarly, if we are talking about black magic, the magi wouldn’t be only those who offer a practice/ritual for money; but also a jealous or envy person who simply does it to harm another person.

I’d like to thank Neirong for the response. However, I’d like to politely ask the forum to mention - in their responses - if they have ever seen real evidences of it. Maybe a reliable friend confirmed its legitimacy, or they saw it with their own eyes, or they even did it and succeeded in the effort of causing harm to others. I don’t think theoretical responses would add much to the discussion, as there are authentic magi who believe it and authentic magi who don’t. Thank you.

I’m very grateful for hearing that, Nungali