Forestgreen

Not if we are discussing that which was so defined.

Yes, I agree. I just see no reason to add this in the practice of neidan, except that it is useful to not follow ones desires (by which many virtous behaviours will appear by themselves, ziran, very daoist).

That would depend on how "de" is translated. It seems like the term developed just like "virtus" did. In my practice, the answer is yes. Most likely, someone else will say no, and because of differences in traditions we will both be right. I might add (great post btw), that what you wrote about the senses leading to different worlds is central to the practice. This, not a lower dantian full with whatever. So we reverse it, so we can go back ("ni") to the same world. Reality.

Said schools added correllations, expanding the ancient four around a center model until it became the correllation tables we see today.

And that relates to defining a term so it can be discussed without total confusion?

How about a nice walk in a forest?

Caffeine creates tachycardia, the Ego believes that we are up for the challange? That would explain stupid things I've done when younger.😁

And the circle defines the term.

In my practice, this happens because we habitually interpret the world through the five senses. The seven refined nine reversed elixir focus on this, and everything else follows.

I would say that the Confusian tradition and the five elements school have been so enbedded in the Chinese worldview that they influence other traditions. This has been going on for so long, that most Chinese probably cannot separate them. The result is a barrier to understanding.

That would make the topic very hard to discuss.

That would be a broken or dead lineage.

So if I think if the term "emptiness" as the absence of a permanent and unchangeable self, explained by dependant origination, would we be relatively close aligned when it comes to the theoretical frame?

This, I would agree with. But, just out of curiosity, since we might discuss this topic again, what is your definition of emptiness? So I can understand this. I read your answer to Mark Foote. It is good to be back here. It reminds me that buddhist practice is more than the aspects that I am studying, and that they all are just convenient means to an end.

Here we use different frames of reference. For me, touching stillness and being mindfull of how conventional reality relates to dependant origination are early stages and still far removed from seing the buddha nature ( and the practitioner still needs methods/tools to develop further). If this is the frame that is taught in the traditions you are familiar with, then that is fine, and there is no point in taking this discussion further.

There are, and have been, numerous buddhist schools. They have argued most about every word in the sutras, and about how to practice. I try to narrow it down to "what I do", as long that it has support in texts and tradition. That would be my guess.

It's not abstract, or at least less abstract than 90% of other buddhist terms and concepts used. Those terms describe things that happens within the body and the consciousness. So there must be another reason that explain why those particular concepts have been dropped.

I agree 100%. When insight dawns. When. As in after. As in, for most practitioners, not now. Most people, meditators or not, lack that insight. Sort of fits in with my metaphor. Before that insight, one is still trapped in appearances, and spiritual traditions recommend that we do stuff, for example meditation, and changes of behaviour, to increase the chance of insight. I did notice that you specified "from the perspective of the enlightened mind", my bad, I should have specified the above and pointed out that the vast majority is in no place to share that view. Some neidan traditions use descriptions that imply that the practice creates something immortal. Being a total bore, I do not agree with that either. Probably because my practice is buddhist, not daoist.

So is mine. Shaolin. Supported by the abhidhamma, texts from tibetan buddhism, and so on. Maybe I should say that I am not referring to doing some contrieved breathing method or a bunch of slow movements here, those are just initial stepping stones in my practice. Much has been removed in modern, post-reform buddhism. It can still be seen in for example texts used by the Nyingma tradition, although Asa in the infamous podd with Damo showed that much of this isn't actually taught (to westerners at least). I am aware that zen do not focus on this, neither does the burmese lineages that has samma sati as their base ( I disagree about their definition of correct mindfulness, because I use mindfulness myself, but again, I can only say that I practice differently and that I have textual support for my practice). That is just play with words. Hopefully you are aware of that. If I said "I am already strong, I just have to go to the gym four times a week for five years", that would be from the perspective of a potential future "me", but not an actual description of my capabilities today. Dependant origination, proper practice sets the conditions. "cause" something to happen.

James McNeill claims that Little Nine Heaven is really ancient. If I recall right, 17 movements, not strung together in a form. This is supposedly the mark of the oldest traditions (cannot remember who stated that).

I would say that although I used the word transforming, that is a poor choice of words. I use post heaven as stepping stones to access pre heaven. One there, I can interpret situations differently and act differently. I would also translate De to something else than the concept of the five virtues in this context. DaoDe, not another group of wuxing correllates that chinese culture is so fond of.

My experience is that the public teachers are part of the problem. How many times do you see a public teacher that have an income based on his school that doesn't teach Xing Yi, Taiji, Bagwa, two kinds of meditative practices, and a couple of qigong traditions? Teachers set an example, students imitate that.

Might work on emotions, but not really on the transformation from ego to non-ego, in the presence of ego-strengthening methods.

They should be skilfully manipulated, so the practitioner can awaken to reality (wuzhen). The goal of one line of neidan.

If they find the teaching valuable, they should do more of that instead of trying to add another routine.