Tommy

It seems to be a paradox. That there is no self as we believe us to be and yet there is rebirth. What if anything goes from one life to the next life? Once explained to me as there are two types of truth. One conventional truth as most people see and the higher level of truth which is ultimate truth. Conventional truth is a collection of things. We have names and identity and personal history. This is necessary for daily life to proceed. But, ultimate truth supposedly goes deeper. The solid entities we see are nothing but interconnected processes. There is no solid unchanging center or core that we can call ourselves. If we look at a car then we see that there is not one piece that is the car. The car is a collection of parts designed to go together to be called a car. And so, we are a collection of parts, aggregates. No one thing to say that is me. What we call the "I" or "ME" is just a collection of physical processes that constantly change as time passes. Buddha called this the five skandhas. So, it does not mean that we do not exist but rather that we do not exist as the way we believe ourselves to exist. We exist as something that arises from something else. There is nothing there that is independent. It is always a part of something else. An effect which came from a cause. So if there is no self or soul then what is reborn? It seems that it is not a soul or self that is reborn but a pattern or Karmic force. Much like the pattern or design of a car. We can replace every part in the car. Can we still call it a car? In the conventional way, we can say it is the same car. But, in another way, the car is not the same. I still do not understand the explanation given to me. But, it seems that all things are connected. Our brains exist inside a field of awareness not that our brains have awareness. Throws hands up and shakes head. I guess it is time to move on and do more practice.

@Neirong Thanks for the reply. When two objects collide, the weaker one can bend and not break then it can send back the energy given to it by the first object thus sending back the first stronger object back to where it came from. Stronger doesn't always mean better. Sometimes there are more possibilities than are dreamt of in your world. I have found that life isn't as simple as one believes it to be. Hope your journey is a fruitful one.

Yes, I often take people at their words. Especially when they talk about their practice. It is a fault of mine to trust people. And compartmentalizing is how most people (i believe) deal with paradoxes in their lives. Sort of do as I say and not as I do. We all live and learn. I can be true in my intent and words but how others see those words or actions can be different. Am I then responsible for how other interpret what they see? I understand that questions and statements can be offensive in their nature. So, I do try to take that into account (well I do now, after what recently happened). I did not intend to offend and have offered apologies. Unfortunately, they were take in the spirit of being more offensive than the first statements. I understand that Maddie has feelings and I should have just stop and deleted those words. Doesn't matter who is right or wrong. Just take into account her feelings and remain respectful. Can't undo the harm. I really did believe that the people on this spiritual journey would be more open to discussion and understand the nature of inquiry and statements made from observations. Since the spiritual journey is made up of what we experience, it is often a place where things can become misunderstood. So, a little acceptance or tolerance is needed for people to have a conversation. Reasonable words??

Sorry, you have lost me in your explanations. If you hit your arm against the wall. Then your hand would get hurt or you would be practicing kung fu and your hand would get harder. Guess what your intent would be and not just the action?? Due to increase in of complexity with dimensions, if you spit upward then it would travel in an arc. It would come back down but not necessarily bring it back down at you. If your actions and intent is to have it come back down at you then that would indeed be silly. Soul gets pulled down from spiritual world. Yes, the system becomes even more intricate, as humans live within a self-created bubble of perception. Did not know there was a spiritual world??

Yes, limited perception. If one's view is small then one's idea of the world is small. For those who have found liberation, this life might seem like an illusion. I do not know. I do know that the view from atop a mountain is grand and the view when face is in the grass is less grand. They bring different feelings. (As per our limited perception)

Thank you for the reply. In your analogy about rebirth, you still have the physical person going from one life to the next. If a person dies there is no physical body. When a baby is born, there are no memories of a previous life (for the majority of people). There does not seem to be any link between lives. When talking about Buddha and the idea of rebirth, if there is no self or soul then what goes from one life to the next in order to use the word rebirth? From one birth to the next, identity does not seem to move forward. There does not seem to be memories of previous lifetimes. But, Karma seems to be there to apply their accountability for past actions and intent. What if anything follows from one lifetime to the next? In some records about the Buddha, it is said that he spoke more about energy moving from one birth to the next birth. Maybe it could be Karmic energy? Since those who are supposedly liberated do not need to go thru rebirth, maybe they do not have any more Karmic energy? So, no Karmic energy means they are not subject to rebirth?? Hmm, maybe thinking about this stuff does not provide a path to liberation and only causes more entanglement with life, Karma?? It is strange the stuff that goes thru one's mind while sitting in quiet silence.

@doc benway On the one hand you talk about not identifying with those words "If I am fully open to your words, without feeling the need to grasp at or protect my own beliefs, my spiritual identity if you will, then who is there to take offense?" Then you come up with, "These are genuine feelings and have an important place in my life and our society..." I wonder how some can compartmentalize their lives so that they are always right? Not saying you are right or wrong. Just trying to educate myself. Note: I said, "Still, I did believe that a forum was about having conversations. Asking questions and make statements on a reasonable level and reply in the same manner."

This is a good illustration of the power of not identifying with the illusory self. If I hold tight to certain beliefs or traditions, if I identify them words could feel insulting or provocative. Those are good words. Sorry, trying to reconcile this post with your previous post. Not that you are wrong or right. Just trying to understand. Humans are quite complex. Still, I did believe that a forum was about having conversations. Asking questions and make statements on a reasonable level and reply in the same manner. Well, I am trying to educate myself.

Thank you for your reply. That seems to be very insightful about not identifying with thoughts. Being open like the sky. Thanks.

It does not follow? It exist on the planet? Not being able to account for your actions and intent, one will account for them in the next one? Doesn't that mean it follows the person or soul or energy? It is a big planet. When the Dalai Lama dies and get reborn, the monks go around searching for his reincarnation. If they do not follow then they would not find him. So, if it does not follow then how does it find the person who needs to be accountable for previous actions and intent? Every action has consequences then after death how does it present itself if it does not follow? Okay, I will let it go and accept your words. It does not follow. It exist on the planet. It would be terrible for someone else to have to account for another's actions?

Thank you for your reply. You make it sound so simple and true. I really appreciate your post.

I believed that this forum is a place to have conversations. To express ideas and get feedback. Express opinions and learn from others. What I have learned is that I am sorry that I made mention of any such things that got Maddie so angry and so hateful of me. It was not my intent to offend. And did not believe it was transphobic at the time. I regret having said anything of the sort now. I have apologized may times and each time was met with more anger and hatred. I wish her well.

Thanks for your reply. Your post goes straight for the heart of the topic. And while I do not know much about dependent origination, I do know that nothing arises by itself. It is all a part of something else. However, Quantum physics drives me nuts. Out of nothingness of the emptiness of space, a pair of particles (one one positron and the other electron) can appear inside of an atom. But, because the two are so close that they will annihilate each other as if they never existed. And the time that they did exist is so short that it can not be measured. The very fabric of the universe allows for strange things to happen. One very strange phenomena is intelligent life?? Well, lets call it intelligent for now. I think it is true that lifetime to lifetime or rebirth is more of a philosophy since there doesn't seem to be a way to connect one lifetime to the next. That is for me or as far as I can see. Could be different as some people have claimed to lived a previous life. Too many contradictions?? Now, I am really confused. I believe each of us makes a choice. Thanks for your reply. Yes, without those memories then we are entirely different from previous incarnations. And yet, Karma follows us from one birth to the next?? Where is the sense in that? Two different things can happen at the same time but it doesn't mean it is parallel processing. But, it also doesn't mean it is not. Can not determine without more information. Have no idea how that would work in humans.

The argument that Buddha had discussions about God(s) is not in contention. For instance, with one inquirer asking if there is a God. Buddha knowing the inquirer would stop his spiritual journey if the answer was there is no God. So, He told the inquirer that there is a God so the person would continue his journey. And as there was also a person who asked the same question, Buddha would answer according to the needs of the person. The answer was to reply with compassion and wisdom which would help the person along their spiritual journey. It wasn't necessary to get hung up on the question of whether God exist or not. As I said, Googled that quote. It was from AI which can change their answer to whatever time you ask the question. Or whenever there is more information. Personally, what matters to me is that a person seeking the way to Nirvana follows the Dharma in practice. The Buddha warned of four types of people. 1. The person who is all take. Will give only when expecting a greater return. 2. The person of empty words. They have grand words but are really full of empty promises. No actions. 3. The person full of flattery. The smile that conceals a dagger. They take your secrets and use them against you. 3. The person goes along with your failings. They say it is alright to fail. To skip practice. Saying you deserve a break. These people will break one away from following the Dharma.

Doesn't seem to be much different from other methods. Focus on breath or focus upon word or Koans. It seems to all deal with concentration. Thanks for the information.

Thanks for the reply. "four fold negation"?? Sorry, I got lost when I had to do truth tables for math class in college. Supreme Being? Thought that was God. That God was the supreme being? Well, thanks for introducing me to more ideas. However, I am a simple person that likes simple explanations. I like physics class but when they go from a simple model of atoms to explaining that those protons and neutrons are made up of Quarks and the electron is also like a quark. It becomes a bit much to carry around. Quantum mechanics makes no intuitive sense. So, harder to understand. Guess experience would provide a better understanding?? IDK.

Thank you for your reply. Sorry, I disagree. So, because teaching the masses, only basic messages are suitable? Does that mean the masses do not deserve the whole truth? Should we hide the true message of Buddha? Sorry, it seems to be without compassion and wisdom. The truth and the path to liberation should be available to all. Why differentiate between the masses and individual students? Or maybe I am misunderstanding your meaning?? Thanks for your reply. Yes, no self as constructed in the present physical lifetime. Buddha did teach that there is no self or soul that goes from one incarnation to the next. The essence? or energy? of a person going from one birth to the next. Karma?, like energy, going from one lifetime to the next. I could be wrong. I read somewhere (don't remember where, sorry) that life is like the ocean. When the water splashes, the spray of the drops fly through the air. Soars. Each on their own journey .. back home. Nothing is lost. And the cycle repeats. Googled, ... Buddhism, unlike other religions, does not believe in a creator God or an eternal or everlasting soul. Anatta - Buddhism teaches that there is no permanent self or soul. Because there is no unchanging permanent essence or soul, Buddhists sometimes talk about energy being reborn, rather than souls. AI tends to be more literal about things and sometimes gives different answer when asked at different times. So, must be taken with a bit of salt. Bitter things are usually tough to swallow. I always thought that Buddhism does not require one to believe in God. Not that there is no God. One can believe in what they wish to. Just that the practice and experience is important. To follow the Dharma. This I believe is why Buddhism was so easily adopted by different countries and cultures. I could be wrong. Anyway, I do believe you are right ... just that the wording may need more clarity. As the self is often thought of as the soul??

Was this practice hard to do? Did it make any difference in your life or outlook?

Sorry, I always thought that conversations meant that two sides talked. One side makes a statement or ask a question and the other side can ask questions or make a statement. Was my question rude? Was I dismissive? Was I insulting? Was I attacking? Maybe my idea of a conversation is slightly different from yours. Well, thanks for your admonishment. Guess better to not be curious.

That's it? Introduced a new term and the OP says Google it? Why not tell us your experiences with this method?

Lords of Karma? "Mystically, these Divine Beings are connected with Karma, the Law of Retribution, for they are the Recorders or Annalists who impress on the (to us) invisible tablets of the Astral Light “the great picture-gallery of eternity” — a faithful record of every act, and even thought, of man, of all that was, is, or ever will be, in the phenomenal Universe." Copied from https://www.theosophy.world/encyclopedia/lords-karma Again with The law of retribution? Justice? Where are these Karmic actions recorded and how are the retributions dealt out? Sorry, just not comfortable with this. When an asteroid going thru space hits a planet with life. It destroys most of the life on the planet. Does that mean the life on the planet was evil and deserved the asteroid to kill them? What did that life do wrong to have an asteroid kill them? Or was that an evil God who sent the asteroid and so that evil God will have his own retribution? Or was that just a reduction in discomfort? Maybe it was the living beings that were evil and deserved to be killed? I am sorry. Lords of Karma is still new to me. And I tend to not take new information without some sort of ... practicality?? I do not believe in an agency or mind that holds justice or writes down karmic actions or cosmic retribution. Rather that it may be closer to being like a momentum or force or even like time. Time does not care if a vase or dish is falling. It will continue to fal until it hit the floor and maybe break. Time holds no feelings or mind or retribution or justice. It just flows from what comes before. It is a consequence of the actions that arose before it. And of course, I am probably wrong. Many disagree with me. They say things like I am 9% as smart as they are. But, whether they say the truth or a lie, I do not know. I am still stuck on the question of MU.

What is the intent of Karma? So as ye sow, so shall ye reap. I do not believe Karma to be an agency of justice. It has no such mind. But reminds me of the force of momentum. Live by the sword then die by the sword. Plant an apple seed and an apple tree will grow. So how does that work with forgiveness? Yes, I have an inkling. But, would like to learn more.

I don't know what Karma has to do with forgiveness. Forgiveness is a conscious act which frees us from the memories and emotions connected with an event in our lives. When one apologizes for an act, it doesn't necessarily remove the act from the minds who suffer from it. It might be a beginning to move toward forgiveness?? When a person can not find that forgiveness then those events hold sway upon the mind. It comes back to make the events happen again. The emotion and feelings trigger the mind to suffer again. It is such a difficult thing to do, To find forgiveness in oneself.