Tommy

Yes, all true. And as you have given to me, advice, before speaking to see if the words are in the light of compassion, kindness and helpful. So, it doesn't matter what I think of their stories or reality. It does matter that I remain attentive and compassionate and do no harm. I understand that there is conventional truth and ultimate truth. And the critical eye you are pointing to. Since my experiences are of conventional truth, it is difficult to know what the wise choice of action is. So, I try to remain open and understanding when dealing with others. I do get caught up in my own reality, thoughts. Not always doing the right thing. But, I am trying to learn and grow. Thanks for the help.

Yeah, that is reading a person's outward behavior. Body language? Lairg (from his post) seems to actually see the Karmic energy. I do not discount what he believes he sees. I just think it is extra-ordinary to be able to see this Karmic energy. And you are right, one can see tell tale signs of Karma. Some call that body language?? Personally, I have never had extra ordinary experiences. No seeing beings or Goddesses or Guardians. No seeing people's auras. No seeing people's past or future. Although reading a person can be fairly easy to see if they are troubled or open and free. I once met a beautiful girl who said she could see worlds thru the walls. Full blown stories and adventures. And, I told her that she was an amazing person. Quite unique. No judgement. Because judgement would have shut down her story about herself. I liked that she was open enough to talk with me. So, I told her she was fascinating and wish we could talk more. Sorry, I never saw her again.

Yeah, this was probably asked before. But, I got to ask, ... One of the basic teachings of Buddha is the concept of no self. If there is no self then how does rebirth work? If there is no soul to be reborn into another life then what does go on? Karma?? What is the important lesson to be learned by going thru all the births, deaths and rebirths? Does a true realization of no self grant freedom from suffering, a liberation from rebirth? How does the realized mental state of consciousness allow for that? Please note: Due to reactions I have received recently, I have to say that I am not looking for a fight. Not trying to insult anyone. Just true curiosity. Do not take offense for my words. If you have an opinion then please respond.

It can be a scary experience for those not understanding what is happening. Not wanting this, it can make one think that they are losing their minds or grip on reality. So, important to have a good teacher and sangha.

It can be a scary experience for those not understanding what is happening. Not wanting this, it can make one think that they are losing their minds or grip on reality. So, important to have a good teacher.

I am guessing that my ignorance of such things protect me from whatever goes bump in the night. But, whenever the conditions are right, those things that need to be worked out will arise and play out their dance to dispel their energies. And since I have no way to know these things, I go on in my ignorance as happy or sad as life wishes it to be.

Agreed. No second hand experiences will prove the existence of Goddesses or Guardians or whatever. I am happy to hear that you have had such experiences. Personally, I have not. I do not discount your experiences but I also do not believe them cause I have not had those experiences. Forgive me my ignorance. Whether countless others have had those experiences or not doesn't change my world or beliefs. Just like those that claim to have been enlightened. I do not believe. But, I do not discount their experience just because I have not had those experiences. When I read about the Buddha and his words of wisdom, I take everything with a large grain of salt. I do not believe everything instantly. Instead I take his words and set them aside until I learn more. Ultimate truth, Buddha nature is not something one can just say yes I believe. It does no good. And It changes nothing. Then even having had such experiences; that nothing changes. Before enlightenment chop wood and carry water. After enlightenment chop wood and carry water. And so I believe even having first hand experiences with Goddesses, Guardians or whatever will in the end change nothing but POV.

Quan Yin is considered to be a Goddess of Mercy. How many Goddesses do you know have a human body?? Who said she was alive? Which Buddhist sect did this come from? Hmm. more legend than delusion?? Or more stories from the edge?? I don't know. But, how about bringing something up which we all can verify as real or existed? Anyway, you can believe whatever you wish to believe. You are not right nor wrong. But, I do not have to believe your words either. Fair??

Thanks for the reply. This thread was started by me to ask about no-self and rebirth. Nothing about absolutes. Nothing about relative truths. So you start off on a false premise. Then you ask me if I know what happens when a person dies. The Buddha says there is no self that is reborn. That a person is a collection of stuff, aggregates. And when asked to show what is the essence that can be called this person, there is no such thing. A metaphor was a car. Take apart a car and you will not find one thing that is the essence that can be called a car. Similar with a person. I do not claim to know what happens when one dies. I only present what was taught to me. I do not believe I talk as if I know anything. But, I do as others have and regurgitate what I have learned. As for meditating, I have on and off practice for over 50 years. The one thing I did learn from that practice is that one can not proceed much further without a teacher and sangha. So why do you deny me this right of freewill?? The right to believe what I want?? No, divine essence is not the same as No-self. When you use your conventional knowledge, that is fine for everyday use. It will help you get thru life. But, when you wish to see the ultimate truth, Buddha nature, then you will need to drop this self. For this self can not experience the truth. It is part of the delusion. Your wish for divine essence to be real just because you can feel emotions doesn't make it real. Divine essence is the same as your emotions, feelings. They will disappear as soon as you die. Gone because they were nothing more than part of this delusion. You have no need to listen to me or to read this thread. Totally fine for Buddhist to believe whatever they want. I wish you well and hope you find a teacher and sangha to help you on your spiritual journey.

Thank you. Yes, I think I do understand it intellectually. And hope eventually thru practice. But, do not want to hi jack this thread which is similar to my recent thread about no soul and rebirth. The point of self observation to see the self or emptiness of self may become a real possibility which then explains how rebirth is possible with no self. But, no words can explain. Hmm, I just read what I wrote and it makes no sense. Anyway, thanks.

Thanks you for your encouragement.

When I started, there was this constant thinking of what I was doing. After some practice, there were moments of quiet. However, there was still this point of view. Of a person watching, here I am . Sometimes not focused on the object or the crutch I was using to focus my mind (breath). Later, the thought process seems to be what the mind was at that moment. I never understood the words about the river. That one can not step into the river in the same spot twice. But, turns out the mind is like the river. And one is never the same as stuff changes all the time. So, the river changes and is not the same from moment to moment as the mind is not the same. Guess maybe I really don't understand. Or maybe just doing it wrong?? But, thanks for your kind words.

Wasn't GOD a burning bush in the times of Moses? And earlier on man (Adam) was made in the image of GOD? I once saw him in a movie. He was 6 feet tall and a black man. He was working in a diner as the waiter. In another movie he was a short white man smoking a cigar. All this suggest that GOD is different for each person who chooses to look upon the face of GOD?? If someone knows better then I stand corrected.

This thread is about the paradox of no self and rebirth. A person may not have a self as in soul or spirit . But, it also does not deny the chance to escape rebirth cause there is such a thing as birth. It is the Karmic energy that flows from one cycle to the next. This Karma is created by ignorance and cravings. Take what you will from that. I know you have read many books and have much knowledge from those readings. I wish you well.

You say there is no grand lesson, beyond living. But, then you give the reason of developing appreciation for all life has to offer. I think you are missing the differences in those statements. Buddhist believe there is no self because the body is made up of aggregates. These aggregates make up this self that one grows up to know as self. There is no one thing inside of the body that can be called the self. Like the car is just a collection of items. There is not one thing inside the car that is essentially a car. It is a collection of stuff. Yet, one clings to the idea that we are all temporary forms of the divine. Everything is related and so everything is divine. Everything is special and so, nothing is special. Point to that which is spirit or soul or divine?? This mind is the result of this body. If one drinks alcohol then one will get a change in awareness. The alcohol affects the body which affects the mind. This mind is of the body. There is no divine essence. One only wishes it to be so. When a person dies, memories do not continue only Karma. What you believe in is up to you. It is your choice. Buddha gave a different Idea. And it is up to the individual to claim the truth. And ignorance can not be vanquished by thoughts or book only thru experience. The more knowledge you gain thru books then the more stuff you have to organize. The knowledge gained thru experience will organize you. That is my belief and opinion.

That is extraordinary to be able to see Karma on a person. I have never heard of this but am open to the idea. Guessing it would be strange to not see it on most people? Meaning there is ignorance and craving abounding.

You seem to have this all thought out. Group or personal Karma? Me? I believe that Karma is more like energy patterns. And since we are all connected in one way or another then Karma will release it's energy in the most expedient way possible. No one being is special. Well, that is in my opinion. Of course I could be wrong.

Karma isn't an agency for retribution or justice. As for as I know, Karma is just a way for patterns of energy to travel from one place to another. It is mysterious and shows up when the conditions are right for it. Or could remain dormant. I do not know what governs it. Ignorance and cravings are said to be the reason one creates more Karma. My ignorance of the ultimate truth versus my knowledge of conventional truth remains unchanged. Cravings are high as I still feel very human. Yeah, I am creating my own Karma. The balloon gets larger. IDK. What I do know is that wisdom and compassion are like lights in the universe. Sometimes hard to find but when they show, life gets better for everyone.

That is an interesting inquiry. Why not start your own thread?

Yes, I do believe that Buddha would have little to do with this discussion since it does not help one to progress along the path to Nirvana. However, as people, humans, we do have an innate curiosity to wonder and ask questions. I am grateful to all who took time to answer even if I did not understand their statements. Thank you all. Some even have a do as I say not as I do understanding. In other words they know better yet they do not follow their own words. While what they say is sound, it lacks the impact of truth as if it came from a real teacher. Not a criticism but an observation. Please no offense is intended. Just that there are so many people who regurgitate what they have heard before. They make themselves sound so wise. I am humbled. I believe, whether Buddhist or not, it is okay to have a voice and to participate in the conversation. After all, it is about learning. And from that learning, growth. Hopefully spiritual growth.

I take it as if it helps you along your journey then that is great. If though it prevent you from continuing on your spiritual journey then it is nothing but a curse.

It seems to be a paradox. That there is no self as we believe us to be and yet there is rebirth. What if anything goes from one life to the next life? Once explained to me as there are two types of truth. One conventional truth as most people see and the higher level of truth which is ultimate truth. Conventional truth is a collection of things. We have names and identity and personal history. This is necessary for daily life to proceed. But, ultimate truth supposedly goes deeper. The solid entities we see are nothing but interconnected processes. There is no solid unchanging center or core that we can call ourselves. If we look at a car then we see that there is not one piece that is the car. The car is a collection of parts designed to go together to be called a car. And so, we are a collection of parts, aggregates. No one thing to say that is me. What we call the "I" or "ME" is just a collection of physical processes that constantly change as time passes. Buddha called this the five skandhas. So, it does not mean that we do not exist but rather that we do not exist as the way we believe ourselves to exist. We exist as something that arises from something else. There is nothing there that is independent. It is always a part of something else. An effect which came from a cause. So if there is no self or soul then what is reborn? It seems that it is not a soul or self that is reborn but a pattern or Karmic force. Much like the pattern or design of a car. We can replace every part in the car. Can we still call it a car? In the conventional way, we can say it is the same car. But, in another way, the car is not the same. I still do not understand the explanation given to me. But, it seems that all things are connected. Our brains exist inside a field of awareness not that our brains have awareness. Throws hands up and shakes head. I guess it is time to move on and do more practice.

@Neirong Thanks for the reply. When two objects collide, the weaker one can bend and not break then it can send back the energy given to it by the first object thus sending back the first stronger object back to where it came from. Stronger doesn't always mean better. Sometimes there are more possibilities than are dreamt of in your world. I have found that life isn't as simple as one believes it to be. Hope your journey is a fruitful one.

Yes, I often take people at their words. Especially when they talk about their practice. It is a fault of mine to trust people. And compartmentalizing is how most people (i believe) deal with paradoxes in their lives. Sort of do as I say and not as I do. We all live and learn. I can be true in my intent and words but how others see those words or actions can be different. Am I then responsible for how other interpret what they see? I understand that questions and statements can be offensive in their nature. So, I do try to take that into account (well I do now, after what recently happened). I did not intend to offend and have offered apologies. Unfortunately, they were take in the spirit of being more offensive than the first statements. I understand that Maddie has feelings and I should have just stop and deleted those words. Doesn't matter who is right or wrong. Just take into account her feelings and remain respectful. Can't undo the harm. I really did believe that the people on this spiritual journey would be more open to discussion and understand the nature of inquiry and statements made from observations. Since the spiritual journey is made up of what we experience, it is often a place where things can become misunderstood. So, a little acceptance or tolerance is needed for people to have a conversation. Reasonable words??

Sorry, you have lost me in your explanations. If you hit your arm against the wall. Then your hand would get hurt or you would be practicing kung fu and your hand would get harder. Guess what your intent would be and not just the action?? Due to increase in of complexity with dimensions, if you spit upward then it would travel in an arc. It would come back down but not necessarily bring it back down at you. If your actions and intent is to have it come back down at you then that would indeed be silly. Soul gets pulled down from spiritual world. Yes, the system becomes even more intricate, as humans live within a self-created bubble of perception. Did not know there was a spiritual world??