tongkosong

What Neikung said was, "... intense heat that supposedly show completion of level 1 but those were completely false. No Mopai students ever had those "signs"." He was referring to the heat as a sign of level 1 completion. We were never taught, by John Chang, nor measured our progress by this feeling of intense heat. Jim was never appointed nor "certified" by anyone in Mopai as a teacher. He was a Westerner who met John Chang and were taught some meditation techniques. He came and met John Chang, at most, once a year, for a few days at a time. Truthfully, would a school consider such a person certifiable to teach? I'm not trying to belittle Jim or his accomplishments, but, we have to see this rationally. There's more to this story that is known to the public. Let's just leave it at that. Take great care in trying out the Mopai training by yourself. We don't wish harm to come to anyone. The reason we started to post again was due to what Sabretooth described, which is not an optimal situation and could be dangerous.

Ken, this statement you made is actually wrong. Throughout Jim's training under John Chang, he had made numerous trip to see John Chang. Sure, gauging Jim's progress was one of the reasons he made those trips, but, the other big reason was for John Chang to look at his training; to see if there's anything that Jim was doing that needed corrections or advice on the training itself. I'm not going to disclose anything specific, but, remember that neigong is a powerful product of the training, so you should assume that the training itself has to be done correctly to avoid deviating from the correct technique, and any deviation from the correct technique can be deadly. Sure, the first few levels sound pretty easy and simple. However, one small mistake done numerous times for numerous years will be quite devastating to the body of the practitioner. The reason how we know is because it had happened many times to a number of Mopai students, even those who had access to John Chang. Many times these students think that they are pretty smart and knowledgable about Qi and/or its theories and training methods. They tried to "improve" their training without asking for guidance. First, it's a small deviation of movement that felt more "comfortable" than how they were taught. Next, they "felt" their Qi and "know" how to guide it. Pretty soon, they will experience what we call Zou Huo Ru Mo. What Sabretooth is talking about is exactly the result of someone experiencing Zou Huo Ru Mo. Someone, a few years back, did have a mark in his palm after practicing incorrectly for quite a while. John Chang and another elder checked his condition and found that student to be in that state of Zou Huo Ru Mo. In that person's case, it was almost to the point of life-threatening. I, sincerely, hope that Sabretooth is no where close to that. The only thing to do is to stop whatever he is doing at once and get help. We know that it's not realistic to ask Mopai enthusiasts to stop practicing "Mopai". I'm not going to argue the credibility of those techniques, and I have read them. I'm not going to argue that those techniques are actually identical to what John Chan taught Jim. We are adults and have to take responsibility to our actions. Our, Neikung and I, reason to comment on this forum is to remind you guys the pitfalls of training without REAL guidance from a REAL authentic Mopai teacher. i wish you guys well and be safe.

Truthfully, I try not to take side in any debate or arguments in this forum. I have no understanding about numerology. The 72 levels are referring to the number of xue dao(s) in our body. No clue as to the significance or relevance of the number 72 to anything else. The ability one gains through neigong allows a person to do many things and open his/her world to many things that an average person cannot. To label those abilities as "sorcery" or "magick", is just is, a label. Maybe when we have advanced our knowledge further, one day we shall call it science.

Leo, I can't force people to stop labeling Jim's instructions as "real Mo Pai". I don't agree with it as it is not an accurate Mo Pai instructions. I can't stop anyone from doing anything, but, I felt it is my duty to let people know what the truth is. Many people have been using the Mo Pai's name for many things; some people used it for bad things. There was a website labeled as the official Mo Pai website, and we refuted it. There was a teacher saying that he himself is a student of the current Mo Pai headmaster, and we refuted that. All I, and my Mo Pai "brothers", can do is tell the truth and refute those that are untrue, in the hopes that people will not fall victim to false teachings and scammers.

Ken, as far as we know, there is no other Mo Pai school in China. The reason being, Liao qianbei, John Chang's teacher, was the only student of Pai Lok Nen qianbei, and Liao qianbei only had 2 students, John Chang and another (who has passed many years ago).

Ken, yes, John Chang wanted non-Chinese to know more about Neigong because neigong allows us, human beings, to be more than who most of us are. He wanted to share this knowledge, but, he was reminded of his oath to Mo Pai's rule (an ancient rule, not made recently as some might think). Thus, he stopped all teachings. When Jim started to teach others, he did so without John Chang's permission. How I know? I asked John Chang himself and there were correspondences between John Chang's son and Jim discussing this issue. You may doubt my identity as a Mo Pai student, but, I have been a Tao Bum member more than five years, and throughout that time, I have corresponded with many Tao Bum members in regards to Mo Pai. If anything I have stated been untrue, please take this time to refute me. I understand your frustration, Ken, and many of your fellow practitioners. Many of us in Mo Pai understand this, however, we, as students of the Mo Pai lineage, are bound to our oath to the Mo Pai's rules and regulations. There is nothing we can do. If John Chang, himself, can't go against the rules, how can we as students do so? If so, how can Jim has John Chang's blessings to teach. Ken, no one can force you to stop doing what you do. Believe me, I have tried telling many people the dangers of practicing Neigong techniques improperly and without the guidance of a proper teacher from that system, and most still continued their training. There are a few (I won't mention their names) who suffered some "side affects" from improperly practicing these techniques. Even those still continued training. My advice to you is to find a neigong system that will accept you as students and has teachers who will guide you in your training. I am sure there are some. I apologize if this is not the answer you seek. Believe me, there are many people just like you, some even moved to Indonesia, but we have to honor and abide to our lineage and rules. If you can't accept this, then forgive our hardheadedness because we are nothing if we live without honor and obedience to our ancestors. To Leo, I'm sorry for not understanding your statement as follows: "The techniques may be lacking, but then, do you fully salute what you deem as improper techniques, posted as MoPai?" I wish you all safe training.

Ken, you speak of respect for Jim and his private teachings. I find it ironic that Jim, himself, did not have the honor and respect for John Chang and his lineage when he taught others Mo Pai's techniques when he never had permission to do so. Before anyone can debate whether Jim had John Chang's permission to teach, consider this, if John Chang himself was not allowed to teach non-Chinese, would he give permission to Jim to teach to others? Furthermore, I have read Jim's instructions on Mo Pai techniques. They are faulty and many parts of the instructions Jim added himself, thus, not the real Mo Pai techniques. Just be careful when you train using those improper instructions.

No, we were never charged money for any teachings. As far as I know, no "inner student" of Mopai ever benefitted, monetarily, from teachings. We were sworn to never use the knowledge we received, from Mopai's teachings and techniques, to use as a means of monetary benefit. You do not need to apologize for posting any comments on our school/system. Everyone is entitled to his/her opinion, as long as it is done with respect and non-malice. Arguments happen all the time. If not, in my opinion, progress can't be made.

No worries, as I understand that with the anonymity of hiding behind the internet does lead to misinformation and suspicion. I know the person who is commenting from Indonesia, with the username of "______indo", is the person you mentioned with an IP address from Indonesia. There are other Mopai students (Chinese Indonesians) who contribute posts in this forum. We are Mopai students, who originated from Indonesia, but take residence outside of Indonesia. How do we prove ourselves as Mopai students! Well, this is a good question. The only thing I can say for myself is the intimate information I have in regards to Mopai. Only those with real knowledge of Mopai will know if what I am saying is right or wrong. Truthfully, we know each other's username, and if I am providing false information, or pretending to be a Mopai student, you can bet other Mopai students will tell you so. The real reason why I come to this forum is to dispute blatantly false information that can harm someone's well-being (when it is Mopai's technique related), or to defend our school's honor and good name. I understand many people do not appreciate some of our school's history , techniques, or policies. As at various times, people do argue vehemently about these. I try to, if I can, provide the correct information. You can still not believe me and I appreciate that, however, I have not benefitted from my posts, nor have I tried to sell anyone Mopai's techniques. Actually, I have tried not to post too much or meddle in arguments. However, if I see anyone besmirching Mopai's or John Chang's reputation, as a student, it is my duty to confront him/her. I don't think this is unusual or encouraging a "battle of egos".

Yes, you are free to your opinion, but, if your opinion is about an actual system/school/teaching and your intent is to judge/bad mouth/criticize it, you better have good and authentic knowledge of it. Your argument, with the intent to discredit and criticize our school/system/teaching is very flawed and ignorant. It goes to show the kind of person you are. There is no Mopai website that is created to be the official Mopai website, permitted by the master of the lineage. There was a website pretending to be the "official" Mopai website, but, the school has dispute it and it was then shut down. If there are more websites popping out pretending to be the official site, please be very careful and do not trust its information. The 72 levels of Mopai are actually not as people understand it to be. This is actually a misunderstanding people have of Mopai and its teachings. Mopai is not from Wudang nor is it associated with Wudang. John Chang mentioned Zhang San Feng not as its ancestor. If it was perceived so, it was a misunderstanding. As to the Mopai technique, it does not and never promote semen retention. It was referring to the practitioner having to take a break from the meditation after having sex. You do not have any knowledge of Mopai's teachings and techniques, so I suggest be humble and do not try to act all knowing. So once again, please refrain from passing judgement on a system or school that you have NO idea of. Instead of doing that, be humble and mind your own practice. If you have any questions on Mopai or its system, you can ask us. If it is allowed, we will try to clear up any misinformation. I suggest courtesy towards other schools and systems. A true honorable person does not get his reputation by spouting out nonsense on a practice/system that he/she is ignorant of. Thank you for understanding.

Please do refrain from bad mouthing a system or its master, when you have no real knowledge of the system. It is easy to sit in your room passing judgement. What John Chang demonstrated was supposed to be for research and to let people know the potential of human beings, not to tease and fill people with delusions and fantasy. He has never gain monetary benefits from this exposure, nor did he want all this publication. Most of what is said in forums are by people who do not belong to Mo Pai. That is why we, Mopai students, asked for our system/school to be left alone. Discussions should be civil and polite. Nothing can be gained by insults and mockery.

No, that is not what I meant. I respect More Pie Guy as a person with strong conviction and opinion, however, I feel he needs to stop posting his opinions as having the final authority of Mopai or John Chang. I am not agreeing or disagreeing with his opinions, but feel that unless a person was instructed by the headmaster of the Mopai school or John Chang, one should not say that the opinion posted is the view and teachings of Mopai. To form an opinion that carries the weight of a school is a heavy burden and you have to have the authority from the master of the school. To compare and put down an opinion made by another school, you have to be a level of a master of your system with full knowledge and understanding of your school and its teachings. I understand that the internet is a forum of free exchange of ideas, but, if it is your own ideas, I have no problem with whatever you say. If you attach your opinion to a system or a school, then it is different. Due to the fiasco from Jim and others, John Chang and the current headmaster wish to get away from the "limelight" and to avoid further controversies, they wished to be left alone. I hope this clears up any misunderstandings.

More Pie Guy, I do respect your resilient and unwavering belief, however, I do think you need a better way of communicating them to others. Communicate your opinion with honor and respect would be a better solution for you, in my humble opinion. If you bulldozed other people's beliefs and systems, nothing good would come out of it, regardless if you are right or wrong. The thing that I disagree with the way you communicate is, even when you are right, people get turn off and would most likely try to discredit you. Remember the saying winning the battle, but, losing the war. Another observation I make is that the more you carry on this behavior, the Mopai's reputation gets sullied. This is why I feel I have to write the previous post. I am sure you do not mean to disrespect John Chang or Mopai. Do know this though, since you contribute many opinions in regards to Mopai or John Chang (or anything Neigong related), people form an opinion on Mopai and John Chang through your posts. That is why it is our wish that you do not drag the Mopai and John Chang through your muddy battleground. Remember, if you respect John Chang, you should honor his wishes, which is to leave Mopai and him alone and out of any controversy.

Please understand that More Pie Guy does not represent Mopai or its views. He was taught by Jim, who was an outdoor student of Mopai. I feel that none of us should be able to have the final authority on what is Yin or what is being taught in a school. I am not worthy or knowledgable enough to represent Mopai or John Chang's views. Unless a student is given authority by the master of a school to represent the school's ideas and views, I feel it is better to keep our opinion to ourselves and maybe learn from others. In my opinion, the Magus of Java was never intended by John Chang to be the bible on everything Neigong related, but, I am not saying that everything in the book is false. As to More Pie Guy's opinion to Jim's accomplishments (compared to the indoor Indonesian students), I would say it is good to have a high opinion on your teacher, but do not do that while belittling others' accomplishments. This put you and Jim in a bad light because your ignorance shows your arrogance. Instead of arguing and promoting your views, More Pie Guy, it would be better use of your time to further your practice. I humbly hope that if you insist on continuing your arguments, please avoid using Mopai's name or John Chang's. Remember Jim's conversation with John Chang was mostly done through an interpreter, a non-professional interpreter at that.

I do second Neikung's statement which "Shifu Lin" can't be a high level Mopai student. If by a minuscule chance that he is, Shifu Lin or you have no right to create the "official" website as you have no permission from John Chang or the current headmaster. If you want to create a website to defraud unsuspecting innocents with your books and training methods, well, that is up to you and your karma. However, do not name it the official Mopai website and leave out any association with Mopai. That is downright insulting and offensive to John Chang and everybody in Mopai. I take it that you wish to be non-confrontational and believe in "peace and love". However, by continuing your actions and the existence of the website, they contradict those belief. If these continue, I guess it's crystal clear to everybody what kind of people you and "Shifu Lin" are.