wudangquan

"If I was old and on my death bed, would this be something that I was seriously thinking about?" New car? No. Nicer Clothes? No. Putting in more hours at the office? No. I wrote about this in a book that I wrote at one point, and called it my "retro-active endgame analysis". Most people think in a linear way, and make their decisions based on that thinking. I think in a retro-linear way, and work my way backwards until now. Not a Taoist this or that, but it works well for me in the self discipline department. That and the one I always say: "First things first. Second things never." I don't multi-task. At all, if I can help it. You have to use your judgement to decide what's really valuable to you. It may be that the things you THINK are valuable to you really aren't. Like - I tell myself this story about how immortality and enlightenment are my main goal - but c'mon now . . . Hot girls are REALLY my main goal. If you can figure out what's really important to you, and for what reasons, and then place value on that inside of this type of retro-active endgame analysis, you can prioritize better and understand the conflict that arises inside yourself a bit more easily. That's what generally works for me. Recognizing what I want. Recognizing Why I want it. Re-examining it to see if it's what I ultimately want or what I want right now, and then erasing the latter, completely.

Here's a book that was just finished around here about Taoism and Wudang. The other two people involved said it was ok if I put it up at taoisttraining.com so the text version will be there. Apologies in advance for some of the ccp propaganda - but I couldn't get it out. book.pdf

Which one of you guys sent me the mail asking if I was Jewish?

Like I said - First things first, second things never . . . 1. Control my temper for the next month and a half so I don't end up in a Chinese prison and I don't have to face the same test again because I've handled this one badly. Treat loss as gain. Rinse, wash, repeat - for about 45 more days.

I have never tried Mantak Chia's material, so I'm not fit to comment on it. But I just wanted to add that (I THINK) Kan and Li mean VERY different things at different levels. J

I learned something once that I think is appropriate: "All decisions are just value clarifications". . . . You are constantly bombarded with situations wherein you must decide. While I think charitable work is good, I think (read that? *I THINK*) that aligning your decisions with your purported or intended values is more powerful.

So I think at least - finding another teacher shows that Li Jiong is not just making the system up. Whether it's good or bad or this or that, he obviously learned it from someone and this guy probably did too. I talked to Li Jiong a bit privately about what's required to teach this system, etc. and on some other issues. What I really would like is to see the texts of the school in more detail. If someone gets them (with permission) in Chinese I can basically read them and would like to. I have a few "key indicators" that generally tip the scale in one direction or the other about whether or not I think something is a good practice or a bad one, and if it's good how effective or profound it might or might not be (caveat: not saying that I am the final authority on this - just for my own use) and if it's good I wouldn't mind catching a train to see what they're all about.

Thanks for your response. Taking it to email for some things I wanted to ask you about your understanding of certain issues.

Hi Lin, First, the place looks very nice and I especially like the hardwood floors. It looks like a place where people would feel better just "hanging out". I wanted to ask you if you could talk about a couple of things (here or in PM). A gaggle of years ago, I thought about doing TCM but didn't at the time because the cost barrier to entry was pretty high. In the usual round about way, I've picked up quite a bit of knowledge (though not enough to practice I think) and per my other thread I've been thinking about getting some more formal education. I don't think that I could easily get into the Taoist colleges in Shanghai or HK (although I'm working on it) so I'm thinking that when I move back to Kunming next month I might start a program at the Kunming Medical College. A shorter route would be going through http://www.yunnanclinic.com or http://www.ynccld.org/ and I was thinking of the possibility of this: http://www.kib.ac.cn/KIBEnglish/Education/104853833.html in regards to herbalism, etc. (and my pretty serious interest in entheogens as state catalysts). I haven't made any kind of decision yet, and am not even sure I will go this route because I don't want to do something like energy healing or emitting qi to heal people for some personal and ideological reasons, but - I was wandering if you could talk about the legal aspects of doing this type of work in the US? I know that for some states there are different laws about accupuncture, and generally involve attending one of the bigger Chinese medicine colleges in the states as a pre-requisite. How about other modalities - especially prescribing herbs, tonics and the like? How about with prescribing various types of meditation, physical excercises, and so on? I'm not going to be ready to do this for at least a couple of years if I decide to do it, but what I would probably be interested in is using those types of healing modalities to promote some more profound types of engaging life. At this point I've been teaching for almost 10 years, and I could probably do it for another 10 but I would like to relax into a place (with a yard! haha . . . I miss yards so much) at some point. Can't have any youngin's so I am not so worried about making alot of money but would like to be able to do something related to my own aspirations in some way and I don't really want to teach martial arts at this point (also for personal reasons). Also I would like to know about your studies if it's ok. That can be done by PM if you want but would like to know about what things you feel comfortable to practice, how you learned them, etc. At this point I think my best options are probably going the TCM route, hitting the Therevada university in Yangon for a few years or getting accepted into one of the Taoist universities (both of the former would probably lead to just monasticism or research - which I'm inclined towards anyway but I would like to stay in society for purposes of cultivation). Hope that's not asking to many questions at once and hope you don't mind answering them or some of them. J

I liked the guy and thought he provided fodder for alot of activity and good conversation. If he's a super enlightened being I hope he comes back and can clarify things in a way people are ready to listen to. If he's not I hope he comes back and contributes worthwhile material to the discussions. If he's wrong, or even intentionally misleading people he shouldn't do that, but he at least understands some interesting points and issues related to what everybody is interested in and could probably contribute alot. It seems like people got frustrated that they can't verify the subjective things he insists upon, and can't objectively prove him wrong, either and so kind of got upset. If he's mistaken I hope he figures it out. If he's misleading people I hope he stops. And if he's got some kind of attainment status I hope he decides to understand that it's hard for people to accept his word and his 18 page pdf as proof. I'd like to meet him and talk to him over some duck heads, chicken knuckles or tea though, regardless.

I don't know how to embed video here, and for some reason it never works for me. . . I have a new preview video for the movie length seminar I will be giving away at http://www.taoisttraining.com . . . I extend an open invitation for Max, Lijiong, Winn, any other people who are teaching publically, as well as anyone who would like to research something, or knows enough about something to make an audio, video, or text presentation to do so and I will host it, at my expense. This means - even if you are not a famous person or teacher, or are just some redneck covered in scratchy tattoos like me - if you are willing to do the work and create something legit, and GIVE IT AWAY, without expecting anything on the back end - I am willing to promote it and distribute it. As you can see, the site is not monetized. No adsense, no advertisements - nothing like that. And as long as I'm able to, I will keep it that way to prevent undue influence. If you want to offer some product or service you may, in the classified section, but if you want people to start sending their cash to you, I suggest you move the free-line back (FAR). Anyway, I'm sure alot of people who do this for a job won't want to give away their best stuff, but I invite other people who know something, have figured something out, can talk to someone who knows something, or who can do research to create material that can be given away.

Hey Scott, It's pretty late at night (about 3:30 in the morning) here, and I'm going to get some sleep, but I plan on trying to post some of they key concepts, and I can post them here. I also understand what you're saying about wanting a concrete sort of example. I always feel the same way. My understanding is that it's not something that's exactly procedural, or based on technique. That's not to say that there aren't techniques which don't help you get there, but that in the final analysis it's more internal than even most internal "practices". Again - the skills that lead you out of Egypt aren't the skills that get you to the promised land. I think that it's first important to understand life - and you can do this through many types of practices and they probably don't even have to be traditional "taoist" practices. Then, once you're able to perceive more subtle things, probably you want to eliminate desire and attachment to phenominological arisings. Maybe something like: 1. Establish inner discipline 2. Push away external things 3. Being Yang and diligent when the unconditioned energy isn't sufficient 4. Being Yin when mundane or conditioned energy arises Stripping away conditioning, eliminating anger, lust, self interest, etc. I think that's the foundation. Extracting the primordial 5 elements from within the conditioned 5 elements . . . Creating the "space" where there's no distinction and spirit and energy sort of congeal, and this is the basis of the immortal infant. I think that - I mean I am not developed (or regressed) enough to explain very abstract things clearly and I don't want to say specifically how I understand this stuff at my own level because your level may be higher or lower, but they can be perceived and someone who has some attainment can probably at least push you into a state where it's apparent. (this is what I think about guanding in Taoism and what I meant to say before - That someone can push you into a state but you have to get to a level yourself). The first time I was able to somewhat understand the stuff I was just blown away. I think the thing that blew me away was that the absolute obviousness and simplicity of alot of it. Here I was . . . You know - Trying to get these abilities and measuring myself against people who could do this or that and pursuing the absolute wrong things all along because I didn't want to face the truth - that the truth is pretty simple, but it's extremely not easy. What I wanted to do was go on being me (I could tell stories about that "me" which would be universally denounced as fiction), but like me 2.0. And I am not even close yet. I still have alot of work to do, and wouldn't presume to tell someone else "how" to do it. I do know that since the time that I have memory I've always felt homesick for a place that I had never been in a very real and painful way. My belief is that I can't get back to it through this or that technique, visualization, martial art ability, intellectual knowledge, etc. Although I do some of those things because I still have a human life, but they are not the point of my life, for sure. For me, there's an active side that I need to be engaged in, of eliminating constraints. Look at a Buddha, or a Tao, or a God and see what traits I possess which they don't. Struggle with every moment of my time to eliminate those (not saying I do this well). Then there's the more Yin aspect, of allowing myself to be myself (rather than my self image). I would like to tell you I have the answer, it's a 29 day program and give me your credit card number now, but . . . I just know what's working for me. I'll put up most of the QuanZhen teachings in text format at some point, sooner or later and maybe you will like to read them. . . Actually most of what I have been taught in person is from ZhengYi but I find that I am a bit more congruent with the QZ stuff for some reason.

Well, it's up now on the site (as of 2 minutes ago), minus the introductory stuff I am going to do. Prepared to be put to sleep.

Hi Lyn, I have read those other threads and I also obviously agree that it's a great idea. What I'm trying to do is just actualize it. This is one of my few strengths. I can plow through work, and stick to my mantra of "First thing's first, second thing's never". I've put up lots of text. There's probably more than 20 hours of audio. Just finished the boring 2 hour video. At the moment I am co-authoring a book on the History of Taoism and Wudang which people will get at the upcoming World Wushu Festival, and so long as the 2 other people involved agree, I will put that up for free on the site as well. I just wish people would take action. I'm trying to, and am able to get a bit done day by day in spite of myself and my own incompetence (and I don't say that as a joke. I study cultivation and martial arts because I'm absolutely unfit to do much of anything else). Everything that I've put together so far I am willing to donate to a third party site if people are doing proportional amounts of work, or at least there's some forward momentum. I don't want to be "the guy", and I don't want to do this or that. I just want the resource to exist and I want there to be some infra-structure that exists for western people who aspire to cultivate Taoism (or become Buddhas or Saints or non-distinct cosmic energy or whatever).

Yeah, there's no hard feelings from me, for sure and I appreciate what you had to say. I guess what I should take from it is that 1. What I value isn't necessarily the same as what others will value (I wish someone - anyone - would put up 2 hours worth of seminar material and talk about how to transcend the state of being human, in a way that is holistic, deals with a bigger picture view of things, etc. and not include a sales pitch to "find out the rest that you can't do this without". . . ) 2. I shouldn't assume that people would want to contribute to something simply because it's something that I want to contribute to. Since you were kind enough to watch part of it, and seem like a civil guy - I would like to talk about 3 other things that I either thought about when reading your posts, or which I thought might be inferred, or which are simply on my mind right now. First, there's a reason I stuck to just illustrative slides, rather than doing live video or talking about this or that technique. It's the same reason (or one of the reasons) why I decided to stop working on Wudangquan.com for now. That is, that I'm not interested in running "The Jonathan Show". I would rather that nobody at all knows who I am, and that I can live my life quietly and in an upright way, in peace. I don't want to make martial arts videos because I don't want to have sausage necked tough guys on the internet challenging me to fights, and I hope to avoid doing the same about Taoism or cultivation because I recognize that I am a student, and while I think I could teach just about anything at least efficiently - I'm not qualified to tell people what to do with matters of spiritual profundity or those with permanent consequences. Second, on the issue of money . . . I want to be totally frank and direct and hope it won't be misunderstood. The $30 I pay for the hosting (which is necessary for alot of multimedia transfers) each month represents between 20-40 meals for me. I'm currently completely out of money because I was cheated in a business deal here, but this is not anyone elses problem but mine. I felt like I put alot of time into making the video, and that if 100 people watched it, and 5% of them donated $5 to help with the site, that would be . . . You know - $25. Less than one months expense. But I don't mind paying for it myself. I like doing the work, and would probably do it even without a place to put it on the internet, so it's no problem for me. I also thought that some kind of investiture would contribute to people wanting to contribute in other ways, as well which is my main objective. There is one thing I want to be very, very clear about though. I felt (and you may not have intended to say) in your original post that there was at least the implication that I was running an attempt at profiteering. I've tried to examine myself very closely on this matter. Of course I could use and would like more money. However, to the extent that I can understand my own motivations, I really don't think this is the case. Again, allow me to be frank. This demograph is like a marketers wet dream. People are willing to spend double digits on PDF's. Bruce Frantzis (Who I respect and only use as an example) sells cd's of HIM singing Taoist songs for like $60 or $80 a pop, and evidently people buy it. All of the commercial Wushuguans here around Wudangshan (the teachers of which I also completely respect) charge people between $500-$1,000 a month to train and people are happy to pay it. Wang Liping (again, who I don't know but respect by virtue of his reputation) charges $5,000 for western students to come to a single seminar, not including their flight costs, lodging and food, etc. This site runs advertisements (and I think he should charge people to post them in the forums, as well). And I think it's fine for all of them to do that. They have organizations and other responsibilities to deal with, and I understand that and think it's no problem. But the point is - If I wanted to exploit this community I could do it. A few spooky videos, my way or the highway, enough traffic and knowing my conversion metrics and it would be like shooting fish in a barrel . . but that's not my intention. Finally . . . If I've lead you or other people to believe that I don't respect or find value in other systems - that's my mistake for not being clear enough. I have the upmost respect for all traditional Pai's of Taoism, as well as many unorthodox or new practices which are upright. I have the upmost respect for the Buddha Dharma although I am not a student and am not so learned in it. I have the upmost respect for the majority of practices that would fall under the banner of Hinduism. Same with Tibetan Buddhism, Bon, etc. Comtemplative Christianity, and many of the Monastic, hermetic, and other traditions of Christianity? You bet. . . . I suppose the place where I have made an error is in not being clear enough that there are one or two systems or practices which I feel a strong amount of reservation towards. It could be that I'm one of Li Jiongs 3rd rate individuals, and that my enlightenment quality is so low that I can't see the value in what they're doing. Who knows. I also have probably made a mistake by not prefacing things with caveats like "I believe" or "It's my opinion" or "As I understand" enough. In casual conversation I assume that people understand that those are implied, but it's my fault for not saying them, and maybe making someone think that I am saying that my understanding is the ONLY correct understanding. That's never what I mean. Anyway -- this is a long one, and I tend to write long posts. To be clear: 1. I don't want anyones money for moneys sake and would much rather people write indepth material, record audio, their own video, etc. and share it with the world if they feel so inclined and I will happily pay the cost of keeping it archiived and available. 2. My video is boring. Sorry. 3. I respect all upright paths, practices and systems. I have publically questioned what one or two are leading people towards, and how they interface with the public. In general, my feelings about that are the same now as before. To wrap this longwinded thing up - I would be MORE than happy to put up material outside of the bounds of QuanZhen/Zhengyi on the site. I have openly and publically said that I would like audio and video material from everyone from Max Christensen, to Li Jiong, to other individuals understandings of existing material, etc. What I want is for people to be able to access as much information as possible to make the most informed decisions possible about what seem to be very important issues. Take Care, Jonathan

Well, it is free. I only asked some people to help me with the costs of maintaining the site. People help me with using bandwidth. And I'm happy to give it and whatever else is on the site away for free. But - what I would like to do is keep advertisements off of the site. Believe me - I could drive the traffic that I get (and its not a small amount) into an offer where I get at least a 50% comission on a high ticket item, offer to remotely activate peoples dormant DNA or whatever these people are obviously making money on because they are consistently advertising - and get paid. And yeah, it's just theory. I personally believe that nobody has put that amount of material into a video format for sale or for free, and I personally believe it covers most of the important issues in cultivation. So, sorry you didn't like it. While I don't claim that the ideas are original or that they're mine (they're QuanZhen material, nearly verbatim in English with illustrative slides) - I spent a good many hours putting 2 hours of video together. Maybe I made it sound like it would be better than it is, or maybe I think it's something better than other people do. As a caveat, there's no bullet time, no qi ball projection, and no buy here, become a tao, even if it's 3am pitch. It just is what it is. a 2 hour seminar of Quanzhen teachings on the process of cultivation with illustrative slides. I don't understand why you want to get so personal about it, though. I do have a job. I just don't make much money, and I spend my money on other things (and I can spend the $30 a month I pay for hosting on things that help me, rather than trying to do things to benefit other people - believe me that wouldn't be a problem. You watched it for free. When it goes up anyone else who wants to will be able to watch it for free. Posting emails in a public forum is also not such great form, I think but I don't care. Somebody else might. Anyway sorry you felt disappointed. I welcome and encourage you to show me how it should be done. J

No sir, it's Longquan temple in Longquan district of Kunming city. You won't see many foreigners with access to a temple during closed hours in Beijing, I suppose. I know that there are several other Longquan's. At least one is Buddhist and not Taoist. The interesting thing about this one where I studied and study is that there are two fish pools there next to each other. One fish pool is very dark murky water, and the other is very pure and spring like. Between them there's a small waterway, with a bridge over it. However, the fish don't swim into each others pools! It's very funny. Yang fish stay in yang pool and yin fish stay in yin pool. Maybe if they meet someday it will be the end of the material world. haha

I'd like to change my username to Jonathan. Is that possible? Thanks

Ok. Betty is fine with me also, I suppose and I've certainly been called better by worse people. haha I'll send Sean an email. Or I'll forget about it before tomorrow. Either way . . . Thanks

Hi Pietro, Nice to almost meet you. I can for sure put a wiki up, but I don't have a ton of time to dedicate to it. My main interest is in doing audio and video stuff, because I think it's more accessible for people than text. However, I think it would be good to have something like a wiki for Taoism. If for nothing else than to document the different sects, masters, lineages, and the basic belief structures, ideas, etc. I have played around with it a little bit already, but have had trouble effectively integrating it with my site (runs on joomla). I'll see what I can do over the next few days about getting something up, and setting up at least the hyperlinked framework for some topics. Hopefully some people would like to contribute, but if not maybe you and I can research and work on it together. From the bit that I know, it seems like you could do a lifetime of work just documenting the historical facts of the different lines of Taoism before they were merged into the 3 big Pai's. Jonathan

Maybe a special place for advertising is the best idea? I thought about it for a minute, and I guess that banning the sale of material on a site like this wouldn't be very effective. If I had something to sell, and had just a handful of people following me, I would send them all into the personal practice forums, and that would be just as effective, but a bit more insidious. I suggest that people pay the board owner for advertisement. Then it's clear and simple probably. Like there's a special section for advertising. You create a topic, and then you're directed to a paypal link and you pay to hawk your stuff. There's adsense at the top of the site, and it costs money to maintainn the hosting, as well as time, etc. so unless lots of people are making donations, I think this would be a pretty fair way. Compartmentalize the commercial stuff into it's own area, and request that they pay $10 or $20 or whatever for their post to go live. For people who have stuff to sell, and have it in their signature, I would think that will be ok. For me, I will read what they write, and the more quality material they contribute, and the more likely I find them to really understand this or that, the more likely I would be to click through to their sales page or whatever. I think that somebody who runs a big site like this deserves some help with the maintenence of it, and the costs associated with it, and asking people to pay to advertise takes the onus off the market and puts it on the marketers. .02 j

Since there's not a good Taoist Wiki (someone should make one!), I thought I would talk some about this temple. The order there was founded by Liu Yuanran. Liu was a missionary for the QuangZhen Longmen Pai, and was on a mission when he camed to Longquan. He founded the ChangChun Pai (I believe at Longquan), but that was later sort of absorbed into ZhengYi when the sects were homogenized generally into the 3 different Pai's. Here is also a video I made from Stone Forest: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4...15568&hl=en I have some other video of the actual village there (mostly just me and my pig and some SJ stuff), but never uploaded it. Somebody should really do a Taoist Wiki. Really.

Which you undoubtedly have the highest order of claim to. I hate to get into semantic discussions like this, but I pretty intentionally caveated that by saying "Taoism" (not "The Tao"), and saying that it "doesn't exactly". Lao Zi clearly lays out 3 grades of men: When a superior man hears of the Tao, he immediately begins to embody it. When an average man hears of the Tao, he half believes it, half doubts it. When a foolish man hears of the Tao, he laughs out loud. If he didn't laugh, it wouldn't be the Tao. By saying that if inferior men don't laugh it isn't the Tao, it seems to me that in order for there to be not-the true Tao, there must be men incapable of perceiving the true Tao. Anyway, I'm sure that I probably agree with you, in general. If what you mean is that all things and all beings have their source in the Tao, and that it's open for all of them to return to that source. In a practical and historical perspective, I believe (I guess I should preface every single thing I say here with I believe or it's my understanding or I think) that Taoism is much more vertical while Buddhism is much more horizontal. Anyway, let's talk about you for a minute . . . Why do you seem so angry all the time? Do you feel like you have a difficult time finding value in others or what others do? Regardless, maybe you want to cultivate (I assume you do) or maybe you are a great cultivator (I hope you are!). I don't want to fight or argue with you. I just use this forum as sort of a video game, but if something gets people worked up, then it's not really worth it. I would rather just be quiet and be friends. I posted a bunch of quotes from Taoist material, but I deleted them . . . The point of my life is not living to try and prove my point about this or that. Maybe I'm right or maybe I'm wrong or maybe somebody misunderstood somebody along the way. Neither am I a very capable person or someone anybody should listen to. I like to talk because I don't get a chance to often, but I don't like confrontation (and to be totally honest you seem like a confrontational dude). I just say these things: Here's what I think or what I understand. Here's what I've got (and I'll give it to you for free). Here's what it might do for you, or here's where you might find value. Here's what I'd like you to do next, if you would. Jonathan

I hate to get between homeboy and the mob again, but . . . Taoism doesn't exactly aspire to offer salvation to all in the same way that Buddha Dharma does. There's a reason why lonely immortals are lonely. But I don't understand why he doesn't refund the guys money. The easiest thing is for rookie to initiate a chargeback/refund request via paypal, and he WILL get his money back. Maybe it's down to me also being third rate, but I think you can guess the roots by the fruits. Bad form with a no refund policy at the entry level, imho.

Haha I was just searching for longquan and found this thread. That's my video! Edit: That was made a while ago when my video skills were really really low! I was just teaching myself how to do it at that point . . . Edit 2: haha if you watch the video there's a big carved stone where Zhang San Feng cooked a dog to eat! He lived there for a while. . .