wudangquan

I'll see your fizzards and raise you a chinchiluman, sir! So I have to come clean and say that (if it's not obvious) my non-belief in Darwinism isn't due to any kind of Taoist insight, or mysterious matrixes - I just can't get with it. When I was little I wanted to be a paleontologist. Really badly. My dad was one of those sorts of dads who teaches you how to play baseball, fight, camp in the woods, do math, and gives you your first rifle (Winchester, .22 bolt action) at 10 years old, with a rack, and a cleaning kit, and live rounds that you get to keep on your bedroom wall. He also took me fossil hunting all the time since that's what I was interested in. At his house, I still have a pretty impressive collection of stuff. Crinoids, trilobytes, brachiopods, and other assorted vermin of that era. Another thing he did was buy a literal bookcase of "creation science" material. So I'm influenced by that, for sure. But there are some things . . . Like these obviously human footprints with 5 toes, and an embedded trilobyte that's been stepped on like a dirty cockroach. Or human tracks intersecting with dinosaur tracks. A decent enough number of them, too. And of course - everybody's first thought (and a rational one) is that they're probably faked. But - there are a couple of things that are inherent in these fossils which cannot be faked. For example - the mud up-push Around the periphery the mud is pushed up. So when the weight of the foot (human or dinosaur or whatever) went into the mud, it displaced and pushed up some mud around the edges. Really this can't be faked, I think. Also - there are sedimented layers, which were deposited at different times. If you cut through them with a laser, the cross section looks like this: ------------ ------------ ------------ ------------ ------------ But in these fossils - it's like this: --- --- ---____--- ---____--- ---____--- ---____--- Which would lead you to maybe believe that the pressure of the bodies weight pushed those layers below the surface down where the foot landed. As far as I know there is no way to carve fossil under fossil. That being said - I am a Taoist, and not a Christian evangelical or something, and I don't really believe that the earth was made by Santa Clause in 7 days. But my Taoist teachers have also told me that darwinism is wrong, and almost universally agree that there was a catastrophic flood that wiped out the majority of life on the planet. I just think that probably - the appearance of evolutionary progression is due to the lower species being buried and deposited first and the higher ones gaining the high ground. That, and the absense of any tarantulemurs in the fossil record, or parlaying around in the trees anywhere today. And . . You know - I'm probably just a big dummy who doesn't understand it all, but I don't believe in the easter bunny, PanGu, the Great Pumpkin or tarantulemurs. That all being said - I find most of the creation mythologies of all cultures (Semitic, Chinese, Native American, etc.) considerably more likely than my great grandaddy eating some shrooms in Africa and shape shifting from a baboon into a Cossack. All jokes aside though, within my particular Taoist cosmology, and everything that I have been taught - the earth wouldn't even exist without human life.

Brother I have no idea what a gamete is, but until they come up with some fizards or reptirds or Chinchilumans the whole thing is highly suspect imho. Just as an aside - Am I the only person here who believes that men walked with dinosaurs? (asking things like this - if nothing else should at least be subtle reassurance that there are no forthcoming books or dvd's to hit the market any time soon from me! haha)

No to continue to derail this anymore, but being a tangent ninja . . . When I lived in Thailand Buddhism was not really my interest (although I hold it in the up most esteem), so other than rucking up to a few places (the beach more often than any temples during those years, but I did go to enough . . .), and general knowledge I don't claim to know a whole lot about it. What I do know a bit about though are the Lusi, or the Thai yogi's. They are jungle yogis and some of them are pretty powerful. Like - put a banana leaf over your head and disappear powerful. When I was in the jungle (of Thailand not booger creek alabama) one of these guys had me eat some crystals off the inside wall of his cave. That's not me saying I have been trained by Thai jungle yogis or something because I haven't. I just ate some cave scrapin's and got something similar to a maha ut. I have always been curious - I know (of, not much about) the forest tradition, and have run into some of those guys on the roads up in Isarn before, too . . . Do you know if there's any overlap between the forest tradition and the Lusi? It's something I would like to know more about, for the sake of pointless knowledge so if you ever happen to ask around at your temple or whichever way you do it I would be interested in hearing what you find out or know via PM. To get back to Taoism, but not really the topic of this thread . . . There have also been multiple Taoist diasporas into South Asia (I guess John Chang is somehow the most famous example of that). For about the last zillion years different ethnicities from Tibet, Yunnan, Guanxi, etc. have been fleeing Hanzu invasions down into Myanmar, Thailand, and Cambodia. There are a good number of Taoist hillltribes in those areas, as well who are not uncontacted peoples, but that don't have a whole lot of contact with many people. Especially in Myanmar. The Thai border areas are also full of ex KMT people who regressed to tribalism and what not after the war. It's actually an interesting area for Taoist study I think. If I had an expendable income I would just go hang out with some hill tribes for a few years. From the couple of places that I've actually seen them (Thailand/Myanmar) it definitely seems to border more on the shamanism/folk side of things than sterile xinxing cultivation/meditation, etc. I would love to see someone come out of those groups and teach. P.S. (edit) sorry for longwindedness. My native English just craves expression sometimes so I get on the internet and ramble like this . . . I should be more tranquil, but sometimes I just want to think things out in a language I understand clearly.

Hi ZZ, Hopefully we will both succeed in our respective cultivation. I want to ask you a question about #2, but hope you won't misinterpret it as being antagonistic. . . Don't mean to be at all. I lived in Thailand for 4 years, and my impression of Therevada is that it's very, very guru oriented. Probably moreso than Vajrayana or the East Asian variants. . . Is that a phenomenon that is isolated to Thailand, or is it a misunderstanding of lay people, or . . . ? I understand that some of the somdej worship, carrying roasted fetuses around in your purse, spirit houses, etc. ad nauseum are more related to animism than Buddhism, but I always saw, in a practical sense that guru "worship" was a big part of Therevada, and moreso than other traditions where the devotional surrender might be to the B/D/S.

Using my advanced, high level super cognition and mind reading through the internet skills I can tell you what all of this guys students were thinking EXACTLY at minute 2:58 . . . Refund.

Hi ZZ, I respectfully defer to your own superior knowledge of yourself and what you believe. I also respectfully disagree that Buddhism (in any variant) doesn't require devotional surrender. I would maybe suggest that you're not taking refuge in your self. Or maybe you are. I don't know. I also realize that I have started every sentence in this post with the word "I". haha Jonathan

Li Jiong, In your school, do you think (Newtonian) gravity actually exists, or is it just attraction between particles of the same plane? For example, if we humans live in a plane between the smallest particle we can perceive physically (maybe a molecule or an atom) and the largest that we can physically perceive (probably a planet) - Do you think that something bigger than a planet can attract a sub-atomic particle, by Newtonian gravity? Hope I said it in a clear way, if not I can try to ask a different way. Edit>>>>> I also am probably one of the few people I know who don't believe in Darwinism. I think - you know . . . the fossil record shows a progression from lowest to highest species. However there are really no or very few intermedieate species. Also we have apes, and we have men, but currently we have no apemen. We have fish and we have lizards but no fizards to be seen anywhere. Near my hometown we have huge roadcuts full of sedimentated limestone, where every inch is totally encrusted in fossil - but, I think that the reason that there is an obvious progression from lower to higher species is because the water buried the ocean life and the lower animals first, and the smarter ones ran for higher ground.

I didn't mean to imply that there has to be a distinction between devotional surrender and surrender to truth. I'm just asking what people think about it. I personally guess that it's either interdependent or they're both below and leading towards another state . . . Just - I am not spiritually evolved enough to know, and don't maintain any pretense of being. I just have some academic and experiential data that I can guess from. Sometimes I say things, or put things out there, but I never mean to pass myself off as any kind of authority on the subject. Mostly I'm just guessing and feeling my way around, and trying to do well at the things I know for sure I should be doing, and I believe that the rest will come to me as part of the process when I'm ready. My understanding is that the goals of cultivation themselves are different. To become a Tao, or become a Buddha, etc., and that the means creates the end, or the process determines the outcome. So I think that the goals of surrender may be pretty similar or almost the same, but my guess is that they are different, tactically. Jonathan

Maybe there's a difference between Taoism and other things when it comes to surrender. I feel that Taoism is a surrender to nature (true nature), but other things like Buddhism, Christianity, etc. require devotional surrender to the "master" or guru. Do you guys feel that surrender (and I mean like . . . Devotional surrender) is Taoist, or that Taoist practice requires this? If so or if not, do they, and if they do at what level do they become interdependent? But anyway I agree totally that surrender is a key issue.

the video is up at Taoist Training . . . I cribbed the basic idea from something I saw Paul Scheele (the hypnotist connected with Chunyi Lin) do at a seminar once. Leave me a comment or something . . . .

While I'm working on my main big project, I want to do a free audio every day (because it's easier for me than writing . . . ). I have alot available already, but I want to do one new podcast/mp3 for people to download every day for a few weeks. Here are the choices: Understanding Reality or The Book Of Balance And Harmony Please let me know your preference, and by popular vote I will record them and set them to drip out every day until they are finished. That will probably be at least 6 hours of audio for either one of those, and probably a lot more.

I'm sure I will do both or all 3 eventually, but . . . The main constraint is time. I could free some up to do everything at once, but that would mean not doing other things that I . . . Want to do.

I almost never "LOL" (and I try to never type LOL) but that made me chuckle a bit. haha It's really just down to what sounds cooler, or what people have already read on and would like the audio version of, I suppose. Here I'll give a basic break down of the modules that would be included in the different works: [/u]Understanding Reality 1. Sixteeen verses, representing "eight ounces" of yin and "eight ounces" of yang, forming "one pound" of elixir 2. Sixty four verses modeled on the number of signs in the I Ching 3. On verse representing the great one engulfing true energy 4. Twelve verses on the moon over the West river, representing the 12 months 5. Five verses representing the five elements The outer collection 1. Four four line verses 2. Verses on various themes The moon on the west reiver - twelve verses Each of these has multiple sub modules, each probably 20-45 minutes in length. The Book Of Balance And Harmony 1. The source message of the mystic school 2. Statements 3. Secret meanings 4. Secrets of the gold pill 5 Explanation of the three fives 6. The opening of the mysterious pass 7. The gold testing stone 8. The nine grades of practices: Side tracks and auxiliary methods 9. Three vehicles of gradual method 10. The highest vehicle 11. Dialogues:: the underlying unity of Taoism, Confucianism, and Buddhism 12. Questions and answers 13. Some questions on alchemy 14. Live teachings on complete reality 15. Spoken teachings 16. Discourses 17. Explanatory Talks 18 Songs 19. Poems 20. Veiled Words I'll also add a third possibility to the mix, but I'm not sure if I can add it to the poll or not: Understanding Symbolic Language. This one would be more graphic, and would probably have to include some pdf files or something along with the audio. So any of those three I can start tomorrow. If they sound interesting, and you haven't read Preserver of Truths "Practical Taoism" wait until I drop that bomb. . .

Yeah I'd just put them up on TaoistTraining and set the published date on each of them individually so they came out every day, and then they would be archived in the audio section . . . It's actually super easy, but just . . . nobody is doing it so I guess I will. There's probably 4-10 cd's worth of stuff on there right now if you want to go download it and burn it. I think alot of people want to learn about Taoism, or alot of people want to study more deeply, but alot of people aren't oriented towards heavy reading, so I think - you know . . . Just put the audio up and video too as I have time and hopefully people get some value out of it. Anyway I get value from making it. Jonathan

I put up a lengthy (and heavily cribbed!) article in response to this thread, and it kind of goes off on some other tangents, too. It's at Yin Yang Pizza - Struggling for potential Check it out if you are bored.

I'll go make the video right now. And by the way - I mean perceptually, not literally. Of course the argument can be made that perception is reality and all that.

What about the temples (if they're such) that are in California and Australia? Do they ordain local people, or only import them? But . . . It can definitely be done in China and there are others besides Cohen I would say . . . Just not in the public view. Taiwan, Thailand, Singapore and the Philippines might be a good idea too. For those people who even imagine doing it in China - better to avoid the famous places I would say. At almost any Temple I've ever been to here (and I've been to many), you usually have to render unto Caesar to get in (not to the temple, in the strictest sense, but to the "grounds" or the park or conservatory or whatever that's run by the PLA, etc.), but you can't get to the temple without doing that first. So that's one thing, depending on your feelings about all that. I would say just go to a mid tier city, find a local temple, and if you can learn some Chinese, or have some help ask them to help you learn how to meditate. Then ask them to teach you some songs. Certainly not in every case, but I think in alot of places, if it's obvious that you're not trying to get the Remo Williams death touch or some material to put into a new dvd release - they'll help you go quite far. The thing about the smaller places is that there aren't the politics involved, as much. In the gross political sense, and in the sense of vying for reputation, a bigger herd of students, or whatever. The place I studied last year was Longquan in Kunming, and I really really liked it. Vegetarian lunch for 5rmb every day, and once they saw me often enought not doing touristy stuff, they started getting curious. In fact the contrast between there and here is so striking, that I'm putting out feelers to get a job there in the next two months and go back. Of course, if you want to spend a solid $500 a month or more on political appointees in some places, learning barrel rolls and pirouettes in others, etc. - that's all available too. There are very cool people in China, and they're just normal folks. There are plenty of uncool ones, too. Like some of these famous qigong guys . . . If you can type/read Pinyin and see what some of them were doing during the last 9 years that allowed them to have their positions . . . Its not so good.

My family are pretty serious (some more so than others) about Christianity. When my older step cousin (my fathers brother was not his father - I think this is the right term) was having alot of problems - alcoholism, going in and out of jail, etc - My grandfather fasted and prayed for 40 days and nights for him. I was pretty young when it happened (elementary school) but can remember it pretty well. Most of the time he just layed in bed, and the family urged him to stop (my grandmother was a nurse). I am pretty sure that it wasn't so good for him, and I know that he was VERY weak and thin after it was over and it took months for his body to recover. That being said - any attempts to disuade him were pretty much in vain. He had this sort of life changing experience in his 60's, being "slain in the spirit", and all of that and pretty much led the rest of the family into die hard Christianity. But . . . He was (rip) seriously, SERIOUSLY hard as nails, and VERY healthy to start out with. Here's a picture of him well into his 60's: He was a competitive bodybuilder into his late years, and during world war 2 the new york times ran an article with his photo where the army intake medics said he was the MOST physically fit man in the entire US army.

Do you have a link to the article? I have some down time on Monday and would like to bookmark it to check out. My guess or feeling is probably that the real issue is an attachment, or something like food lust (which I have a problem with, for sure!). If you can or have eliminated the attachment, it probably doesn't matter how much you do or don't eat. . . . I say as I sit gorged from the awesome skillet of chicken, vegetables and fat noodles that I cooked tonight. I get served one meal a day for free, and it's pretty much garden variety strips of tof that taste like the bottom of a sneaker, some celery and rice, and maybe a soup that is basically hot water. I should try to be satisfied with just that for a while. I think it's correct that the truth is usually simple but almost never easy! Of all the things I have given up in life . . . I still gravitate towards designer eateries, and 3-5 star hotel buffets any chance I get because the stuff is so delicious. And gravy. I'm a hoosier.

Li Jiong, I want to look at your website but it's blocked in China. Is there another version that I can see? Thank J-

I think the breatharian equivilent in eastern practices, and I guess specifically Chinese is Bigu. I've done some fasting before, but never anything hard core like repel into a cave, cut the rope and cultivate until I achieved enlightenment or starved to death. . . . It seems pretty iffy if you don't have a real solid foundation or really excellent teachers, or maybe something like awesome inherent capability like the Buddha or something. That being said, the founder of the Breatharian movements was caught eating chicken pot pies late nite after one of their seminars, as I remember.

Li Jiong, The people who went through the previous chaos that survived were high up in mountains (himalayas, and others above a certain elevation). I also think that we're headed towards a havoc in the pretty near future. But who knows what will happen. Learn the old skills, and the old and new wisdom. Basic boy scout handbook stuff is always good. You probably ought to be able to make fire, at least. I'm not worried about surviving it if it happens. I will or I won't. I just want to be useful afterwards if I'm still around.

Anybody have any interesting pets? When I lived in Thailand I used to have a flying squirrel that was cool. I bought him at Jatujak market, where you can buy all of the endangered species your heart desires . . . Here's an older video of my current roomate, who is quite a bit bigger now! http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=57...99181&hl=en If you are thinking about getting one of these guys as a pet - they're awesome friends and roomates - but if you're squeemish, better get a female! This guy sleeps with me, can do some cool tricks like sit, stand up, turn around and jump. Also - and almost nobody believes this until they meet him and see how super smart (and cunning) he is, but . . . During the winter time I had a small space heater because there's no central heat in Yunnan where I was living at the time. He loved to hang out and sleep in front of that heater, and would stay there all day, except to walk around and search for some food. Apparently, he had been watching me operate it. Usually it was turned "on" but I would just unplug it when I wanted to turn it off, and then plug it back in when I wanted the heat. One day I walked into the bedroom and saw him with the cord in his mouth trying to plug it in to the electrical socket. No kidding. Of course he couldn't do it, but he understood the causality between plugging it in and getting heat! He also knows how to open the refrigerator, is house trained, etc.

Hi, I'm playing around with re-purposing my site at http://www.TaoistTraining.com . . . Actually I decided to start doing this because I'm not going in the direction that I wanted with wudangquan.com, and can't find people in the area who want to do what I want to do (which doesn't really include pimping peoples wushu schools and not giving anything back to others). That being said, if I found some people in the area who wanted to work on it with me, I'm still up for it as long as we give EVERYTHING away for free (and no cheesy cliffhanger "click here to buy the rest" stuff). I also have broader interests besides martial arts, and I think that a much broader value can be provided to more people. Right now the only thing that's up is some place holder stuff, and existing audio/video stuff. What I would like to do is something very similar to Buddhanet, but of course Taoist in orientation, and not sectarian. The thing about Buddhanet is it's an incredible free resource. You can download hours and hours of audio lectures, lots of texts, etc. but there's not a big centralized place for Taoist stuff that's not in Chinese language. So the vision I have is half buddhanet style, and half magazine format. Here's what I would like for the buddhanet style repository: Any kind of classical texts Classical audio Video releated to historical Taoism Audio lectures from good teachers (with their permission) or you doing it by yourself (if I can put some stuff up anyone can!) Heads up on material that I can source which won't violate copywrites or that I can get permission to host Here's what I would like for the "magazine" style part . . . Interviews Articles Step by steps/how to's Audio lectures, interviews, etc. Video (travel, temples, how to, interviews, whatever) Whatever This isn't a money making venture. I put some adsense up on there, because the hosting is about $30 a month because of the high bandwidth usage that will be required, but beyond MAYBE covering that - I am not looking to make anything off this, except something cool. One thing I did is take down the part of the site that had forums, etc. because I didn't want to appear to be trying to compete with Tao bums or any other established sites. I just want to make a killer resource for people who are interested in this stuff. If you would like to help (and I think any body could put something together), with Audio, Video, text, interviewing someone, documenting a process - doing something related to any of the sections, etc. please drop me a pm here. I can edit anything, and do lots of work and plan to put a ton of new audio and video up in the next week. My big project now is an audio and video release of Preserver of Truths "Practical Taoism" which should be about 30 hours of Audio and maybe the same of video. Since I'm in China and around Wudang in particular, I can do some other cool stuff as well, I think. Again the articles and stuff there now is just a place holder that I populated from my blog. I would like to do a public launch of the site in a couple of weeks or sooner if I could get some cool stuff. Please drop me a pm if you could help. Thanks Jonathan

P.S. For people who are selling stuff - I think providing some stuff for free is a great way to A. get attention, B. Get social trust C. Get social Credit, and if you give away GOOD stuff, people will assume that your other stuff MUST be great. Ergo you sell more stuff. Here's the thing . . . I'm in my 30's. The generation of Western Taoists, martial artists, etc. before me are settling their stuff for retirement, and to payback their losses and sacrifices in previous years. And respect is due. Here's the other thing about guys my age. We can get this stuff a lot easier than previous generations could. We are more mobile. We are more connected and hopefully we can progress well and carry this stuff on in a good way. But I mean . . . I'm a sketchy kid from Indiana, a high school drop out (almost a never attended!), am COMPLETELY incompetent, and I can still live in India. Live in Korea. Live in Thailand. Live in China, etc. and get access to the good stuff, and work a couple of hours a day and get paid while I'm doing it. There's no huge sacrifice beyond time, commitment, perservering through some normal hardships, and choosing to care less about loss and gain and the things that other people normally care about (which, like pimpin', ain't easy). I'm waiting on an upload to finish on a video I made about an excercise to feel Qi - just for people that maybe interested. It's real simple, and it's just me with a video camera here in the secret hideout. That's really all it takes. So what I'm saying I guess, is - Don't talk about it, be about it. And don't sell it, live it.