wudangquan

Cat,

 

WDQ's point, and mine for what that matters, was that DAOISM does not have trasmission/enpowerment and not that tibetan-yogi-whathaveyou do not have it

 

YM

 

Yes.

 

Guanding (sorry I don't know the Tibetan or Sanskrit word off hand) is definitely a part of Tantrism and Tibetan tantrism.

 

As I understand it (and not so well) they do it to open your lucky straw and create some other mechanisms.

 

If you're doing these things, and calling it Tantrism, and have received legitimate transmission yourself - then ok. That's just Tantrism (I mean just as it just is, not as a belittlement).

 

If you're doing it under the banner of Taoism - then something else is going on because these practices don't exist. Taoism uses energy channels and is different than Tantrism.

 

For example - Tantrism uses mutual cultivation of male and female at some levels. Not male and female elements, but beings.

 

Taoism believes that you have both yin and yang in your own body, and doesn't necessitate these kinds of practices.

 

That doesn't mean that one is better than the other - They're just different practices, and they were created out of different situations, necessities, and actually to be honest - completely different pre-conditions for cultivation and historical periods (on the macro, kalpa sort of level).

 

At the higher levels of Taoist practice, yin and yang mean something different, as well.

 

What I don't want to do is accidentally cause any kind of sectarian argument between Taoists, Tantrists, etc. because I don't invalidate and I respect all upright paths.

 

It's just that Taoism is not Tantrism, and it doesn't have these things. Not as the Taoist religion, and not even as an overall school of cultivation and anyone who does them is misunderstanding a key issue, or is up to no good.

Sure.

 

A good teacher can create a field, and can also lower resistance.

 

I haven't trained or studied with Wang, so I can't talk about him specifically - just my own general and limited understandings.

 

What I would assume, and what I have seen with the good teachers is that:

 

1. They can create an energy field that is more conducive to good practice

2. They can lower the environmental and personal constraints that people have

3. Their cultivated bodies can clear some things up that most people can't even see

 

What they don't do is give you cultivation energy that you haven't cultivated yourself.

 

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When you do, you get these special bonuses:

 

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EVEN IF IT'S 3 AM.

You agree that you will, and you demonstrably show that you can do certain things and not do other certain things, similar to abiding by precepts in Buddhism (as I understand Buddhism, which as I say is limited).

 

You have to learn certain things first - some things like stepping patterns, and other ritualized things for performing specific functions.

 

Then you get trained to do whatever your school, temple, or whatever has Daoshi to do, and work on your own cultivation.

 

Even alot of Chinese think that there's Guanding in Taoism, but there isn't.

 

Being Daoshi just means that you are trained to do the things that Daoshi do, and are empowered with authority (through training) to do them.

 

It's an idea that's been popularized by Wuxia, chivalrous novels and questionable cross-pollination of lineages, schools, and practices during the qigong era.

 

I've seen some sects where they do some things like . . . It's hard to explain it without saying wild sounding things, but where they may use gong to get rid of some bad things, remove obstructions (like in Niwan), etc.

 

But the idea of supplementary cultivation energy, or getting some highlander quickening or whatever - it's not Taoist.

 

I have just finished recording Secret Of The Golden Pill, and will put that up along with some other recordings tonight or tomorrow. There is some applicable stuff in there.

 

There are some people who do this kind of thing under the banner of Taoism, though.

 

But what they are doing is putting their own things in you.

 

Where does the energy come from? Not your own cultivation. Nobody knows for sure.

 

What is the purpose of the things they install? They don't tell you clearly because you wouldn't accept them if they did.

 

What is really cultivating? You would shudder to think about it.

 

You train yourself in Taoism. You cultivate yourself. It's not like Christianity where the hero can bear your karma for you.

 

Your teacher is your teacher. Not your messiah, and he also is in the 3 realms - he probably doesn't have anything to spare for you.

 

EDITED FOR CLARITY 5 MINUTES LATER . . . .

 

But my point is not to change anyones mind. Just as a word of caution for people who want to listen. Those who don't, it's ok and not my business.

I'm going to get ripped to shreds for this, but . . .

 

Real Taoism doesn't do this stuff.

 

There may be some instances of energy being transferred, but it's more like radiant energy.

 

The stuff like GuanDing is a clear sign that something is not Taoist, or is a very heterodox Taoist practice, a low grade practice, or a side path. Or it could be something much worse and much more dangerous.

 

In other practices - they do this. Like Tantrism, and certain other esoteric practices.

 

Taoism is a lineage practice, and it doesn't seek to save all beings like Buddhism. The real stuff goes to one student but this kind of thing isn't done.

 

My feeling on this matter is that anybody who's doing anything like pouring energy into your head, etc. is not doing an orthodox Taoist practice, and not only is it not Orthodox Taoist religion, it's also not even from the same cultivation school.

 

It's legitimate in other cultivation schools, but it's not a Tao practice.

 

Therefore the Master

acts without doing anything

and teaches without saying anything.

Things arise and she lets them come;

things disappear and she lets them go.

She has but doesn't possess,

acts but doesn't expect.

When her work is done, she forgets it.

That is why it lasts forever.

 

If you overesteem great men,

people become powerless.

If you overvalue possessions,

people begin to steal.

 

The Master leads

by emptying people's minds

and filling their cores,

by weakening their ambition

and toughening their resolve.

He helps people lose everything

they know, everything they desire,

and creates confusion

in those who think that they know.

 

Practice not-doing,

and everything will fall into place.

 

If you open yourself to the Tao,

you are at one with the Tao

and you can embody it completely.

If you open yourself to insight,

you are at one with insight

and you can use it completely.

If you open yourself to loss,

you are at one with loss

and you can accept it completely.

 

Open yourself to the Tao,

then trust your natural responses;

and everything will fall into place.

 

Knowing others is intelligence;

knowing yourself is true wisdom.

Mastering others is strength;

mastering yourself is true power.

 

The great Way is easy,

yet people prefer the side paths.

Be aware when things are out of balance.

Stay centered within the Tao.

 

Rushing into action, you fail.

Trying to grasp things, you lose them.

Forcing a project to completion,

you ruin what was almost ripe.

 

Therefore the Master takes action

by letting things take their course.

 

I have just three things to teach:

simplicity, patience, compassion.

These three are your greatest treasures.

Simple in actions and in thoughts,

you return to the source of being.

Patient with both friends and enemies,

you accord with the way things are.

Compassionate toward yourself,

you reconcile all beings in the world.

 

When they lose their sense of awe,

people turn to religion.

When they no longer trust themselves,

they begin to depend upon authority.

 

 

*ducks*

I'm kind of fishing for something more academic, or for places that grant credentials, degrees, or diplomas.

 

The reason I'm even thinking about this stuff is at some point, I need to get more formal education, as I have none.

 

To give some background, I was involved in one of the earliest cases of juvenile white collar/computer crime in America . . . And I hit the streets at around 15 in flight from punishment.

 

In retrospect, I should have just taken my lumps, but when you're pulling up your bugle boys and you see the fbi, secret service and local police run up to your house with guns drawn before school . . . It does something to you.

 

So that is really the origin of my wayfaring that I mentioned. By the time I was 18 and it didn't matter anymore, I was already conditioned to living outside of normal society, so I never really fully re-integrated.

 

Now I'm in my 30s, and I am kind of interested in education for its own sake (although I think I have a somewhat profound education that I've found and made myself), and . . . Although I don't plan to go back to the West, if the economy really collapses or something like that, I've been thinking that I should go back to take care of my father when he's old if he needs it.

 

But . . . I really don't think I'm cut out to be a car salesman, or a computer programmer, or a gym teacher.

 

What I'm interested in, almost exclusively is philosophy of existence, cultivation, martial arts, etc. - at the expense of almost anything else.

 

In a way, I feel like maybe I should have gone to the Buddhist university in Myanmar when I got accepted, but the word on that was that there was almost zero meditation teaching, and that it would be academically unsatisfying for most intelligent people.

 

So while I'm lurking around China for the next few years, I should probably figure something out.

 

At this point, Chinese medicine colleges are seeming like the most likely bet. I would be up for any spiritual studies at a university or college level, or seminary assuming that it was oriented towards cultivation and not just cold academic research.

 

I'm also not trying to be constrained by a specific tradition, although my primary interest in Taoism.

 

I guess I'm looking to be a voyeur into your thoughts about what you would do, to help me make a better decision about what I am going to do.

 

The only real constraint is finances. Otherwise there's not much that I can't do, if it seems like a good thing to do.

 

For example it's no problem for me to go live in Myanmar for the next 10 years to get a PhD. in Dhamma, but there's no way I could afford to get even an associates degree at Naropa.

Wudangspirit -

 

What college do you mean at wudang?

 

Do you mean this: http://www.orientalcollege.org/index.php?section=1

 

And out of serious curiosity - Who's building a temple in the US?

 

Jonathan

Would people who have experienced this say it is the same or similar to guanding or is it something different?

I didn't expect alot of stuff about physics. That's a pretty good idea.

 

I read a book called "In Search Of Shroedingers Cat" when I was a young kid and thought it was very interesting.

 

However, I see any math beyond simple algebra . . .

 

^{0+0}^ =/= ^{PX9}^ . . . Something like that

 

And all I see is catface is not equal to pigface . . . I could probably study hard and learn to do math at higher levels, but I really feel like it would be pretty difficult.

 

About the place at Wudang . . . I haven't ever trained or studied at Master Yuans school but it seems like he's thought pretty highly of. I believe his secretary (if he's a member excuse me!) has a blog and what not, and alot of stuff on youtube as well.

 

There are a couple of other very good teachers I think, and a bunch of not very good ones, but . . . Save your pennies for that one. It's not so cheap.

 

How about, just for the sake of talking - we talk about degree or diploma granting institutions, though.

If you could go to study anywhere, and study any (existing) major that you wanted without any troubles, what would you do?

 

I took the entrance exam for the Therevada Buddhist Missionary University in Yangon Myanmar when I lived in Korea and got accepted but never went.

 

There's also a Buddhist college in Hat Yai, south Thailand that seemed pretty good.

 

These days I feel like I would like to do academic research on entheogens, study chinese medicine, check out a few of the martial arts degree programs, etc.

 

If there were no bar, what would you study and where would you study at?

 

Strictly for personal fulfillment - not for finding a job or whatever.

I think that gets to the heart of the matter.

 

Most of what people need is freely available.

 

But they don't accept it, and always want to find this or that secret method, high level teacher, etc. when the answers are right in front of them. They just don't like the answer.

So are you saying that financial status is indicative of previous cultivation?

 

No, not at all.

 

I'm not involved with Li Jiong, haven't bought his books, or met him.

 

What I was curious about is whether people think it's a possibility that there might be a reason (even a spiritually valid reason) that a person would set a barrier to entry based on financial abilities.

 

I'm not a preacher, am not preaching and tend to believe that most good teachers don't require so much money, or if they do it's only to help with your own attachment to it, but . . .

 

I'm open to the possibility that when doing mass market type of stuff, and not having the chance to meet your students, using new and emerging media, etc. that there are different criteria for evaluating the relative merit of lack thereof in a student.

 

That's all.

 

And I don't understand why $70 or whatever is that big of a deal. If you think it's worth it, than pay it. If you don't then the guy may be aggressively marketing, but he's not forcing anyone to do anything.

 

Also - I'm probably one of the poorest people on this forum, by any material standard, but I don't begrudge the guy doing whatever.

 

I haven't looked at or read his stuff so I can't say what I think of it . . .

 

But . . . Come to Wudang and see how you get charged $600/month to learn barrel rolls and pirrouettes, or Wang Liping asking 5k from foreign students for a seminar.

 

Thats not to disparage either one of them.

 

Cultivation is difficult and lonely work, though. Very difficult and very lonely, and not very rewarding in the typical meaning of the words.

 

If you want to get on a plane, have people scream something like basically "Not Chinese!!!!" directly to your face 24 hours a day, have your humanity completely invalidated, live hand to mouth, forever be at the whims and mercy of people who are definitely NOT cultivating and who are motivated by the most base instincts, forget about all security, personal connections, etc. - then it's possible to find very good people who MAY (and equally as likely that you won't!) share very good and high level stuff with you.

 

(And before people blast me about having financial/family/personal responsibilities I have them too. I have familial relationships that are just as valid as yours, I desire security as much as you do, and so do all of the other people who turn away from that stuff on the *HOPE* (not even the likelyhood!!!) of finding the Tao.

 

For those people looking for a magic bulllet - just pay magic bullet prices and maybe you'll get what you want. Who knows.

Just to play devils advocate and stir the pot (for no sake other than stirring the pot . . . Which is silly) . . .

 

How do you know that Li Jiong hasn't figured out that your financial status and ability to pay is indicative of your previous cultivation, and accrued De from previous lives, and is therefore a reliable indicator or at least a good filtering mechanism for people with low enlightenment quality?

Hi,

 

As mentioned I am working on an audio/video/text library of sorts at http://www.TaoistTraining.comb

 

I kind of envision it to be something more in the future, hopefully.

 

To be totally frank I am relatively incompetent and not so dependable as far as practical things go, however.

 

If people wanted to use any of the material I am recording (audio, video [much more video in the near future], etc.) that is fine with me.

 

If you use it externally from the site maybe a link back to me would be appreciated, but I mean . . . That stuff and the Tao in general is certainly not exclusive to me. I would just appreciate a recognition of my time if someone uses it. But you guys can feel free to burn any of the stuff I record to cd/mp3 players, pass it around and do whatever you want with it. I'm just more interested in things being accessible to someone who was where I was at a point earlier in my life, and while I am certainly poor by western standards I have a place to live, food to eat, good teachers and an awesome woman, so I am not after anyones money right now.

 

I will try to keep the site up indefinitely, and will be adding more stuff to it weekly. Right now I'm a bit behind on th audio that I'm supposed to be putting up because my girlfriend took a train for 32+ hours from Kunming to Wudang/Shiyan to visit me for Golden week, and I'm sure nobody would hold my priorities against me.

 

Anyway I don't want to co-opt anybody's anything. I also don't want to give much of a platform for any self professed messiah's or kooks. I think . . . Clearly I try to be open about the fact that I'm not enlightened myself, and don't know anything myself, but I take a very orthodox kind of approach to things (I try and may do some unorthodox things myself [3 cheers for mail order DMT in China! haha] but wouldn't promote them publically unless I WERE enlightened or something), and am not really up for - well I don't want to be held responsible or karmically culpable for being part of anything that leads to other peoples disasters.

 

What everybody has said seems like a cool idea, though.

 

As a matter of fact I can contribute something, though. You can hang out on my site and add stuff to it if you want. *OR* - if some responsible party who everyone respects is interested and creates an account with godaddy I am willing to push any of the following domains which I own over for the use in a project like this (I just can't handle a seperate project at the moment but think it sounds like a nice idea).

 

Here's a list of the domains from which I can donate one (hey it's $9 but some of them are kind of cool names!):

 

 

AnalysisParalysis.org (Kind of a joke, but it could degenerate into this!)

Lao-Zi.net

Popullution.com (I really should develop this at some point, but . . . .)

Sun-Zi.net

TaoistMeditation.Net

TaoistMonk.com

TaoistQigong.net

TaoistTemple.net

TaoistTemple.org

TaoYin.info

Zhuang-Zi.net

 

I also own:

The .org/.net/.info tld's for Popullution

AnalysisParalysis.Info

BookOfFiveRings.Org

ExtinctByInstinct.Com

KongFuZi.info

KongMenQuan.com/.info

Wudang.TV

WudangQuan.com

WudangMountain.com

WudangShan.info

YumenQuan.info

etc ...

 

From the above list if the group SERIOUSLY wants one, and is SERIOUS about really doing the work to develop something - you can of course have it for free if you promise to keep it non-commercial.

 

For the other ones - it's kind of my hobby.

 

If there's something else I can do to help please let me know and if I am able to commit I will.

 

I had been planning on doing something kind of similar to this at some point, actually. I am here in China, and get around to some of the more famous places, so I have a pretty good idea of alot of people who are coming over for training, what sort of training they're doing, etc. and thought about doing a push for a temple with Western Daoshi in a few years . . . But that's a few years off.

 

Oh and I shaved off the beard and got a haircut for my gf's visit

http://picasaweb.google.com/iamjon75/Golde...ey=QdNuuZWK590#

I'm largely ignorant about matters of Buddhist religion, but isn't there a clear hierarchy of enlightenment?

 

Like human in the 3 realms, Arhat, Tathagata, etc.?

 

If a Tathagata Buddha is higher than an Arhat can't there be something higher than a Tathagata?

 

(I'm asking, not suggesting).

The first, second and third installments of The Book Of Balance And Harmony are up and available for a listen at Taoist Training .com now.

 

I will add a new section (or more) every day until it's finished, hopefully.

 

All of the other stuff is free, but from now on for the stuff that requires me to actually do some work, you have to register to grab it (still free though) so I can viciously spam you when I get bored and don't have anyone to talk to about pseudo science and monkey grandpa's.

 

It would be cool if you filled out the profile so I can see who you are or something about your personality or whatever, but you don't have to.

 

Whenever the slow connection finishes downloading something, I'm going to start working on a Taoist Wiki, as well. I think it would be good to have like a clickable resource that talks about the basic ideas, outlines the lineages, provides resources like temple and shrine locations around the world, etc. so that should probably be up by this morning China time.

 

Also my girlfriend is on the last stint of a 28 hour train ride to visit me during Golden Week, so I won't be around much I think but will try to get the new audios up at least daily.

 

Regards,

 

Jonathan

 

Edit: Oh and shutting down wdq.c in a few hours as well. Will be at a wedding ceremony on the mountain this week and will try and take some cool pics and video, but will put it on tt.

Someone else said something in another post (can't remember who to give credit where due) about like attracting like . . .

 

I think this is the way it is.

 

If you're looking for the stuff to show off, you'll more than likely end up finding out after years that you're training with masters of kung fu moviedo and hidden wire qigong.

 

It's just really difficult, I think. As far as I can tell, most Chinese people, even alot of the IMA people and oldsters you see around, etc. have no idea where to find the real teachers. It's not that they're not telling, but nobody knows.

 

For me personally, I happened into some dumb luck. My fiance's grandfather was Bi Youfeng, and pretty famous Shuai Jiao master and one of the only people that was travelling outside of the mainland during the 60's and 70's to do demonstrations, show a few Japanese who's boss, etc.

 

Her dad, mom and uncles got his Shuai Jiao (the non sport version - as far as the sports stuff everyone in Yunnnan can pretty much trace their training back to him) but neither she or any of her cousins are interested so they just taught (and are teaching) me. It's a specific system, that's specific to the Black Yizu from Stone Forest..

 

And they taught me their internal stuff as well (and there is a good system). Shuai Jiao ruler, Shuai Jiao qigong, the meditative stuff (although it's just meditation- no visualization or spooky shit), and it's definitely Taoist rather than Buddhist or anything else, and the basic xinxing stuff.

 

The training methods are definitely taoist I would say, and it's parallel to other stuff out there (again, it's not the sport variant - it has strikes, kicks, etc. and imho is very effective).

 

For the spiritual stuff as I said I studied at Longquan temple. This is really the best advice I can give in my limited experience - make friends at a smaller temple in a mid tier city.

 

All that being said - I only know a little bit. I did other taoist stuff and qigong for years and years before, so I have a conceptual foundation and basically understand what the road looks like, have vague ideas about where it's going, and feel like I have a bit more ability to discern the lower grade stuff from the higher grade stuff than your garden variety ninja, but . . .

 

Yeah it's difficult I think. Difficult to find good teachers. Anywhere. My step mom converted to Christianity, so she won't put me on to her guanxi to find the right people (and she probably could), and there are sterilized materialistic variants, cheaters, low grade practices, etc. everywhere.

 

In the final analysis though, if you're not looking for the k-rad 3l33t thunder schlong or the ability to shoot lasers out of your eyes, it probably comes down to quality meditation, being able to treat loss as gain, and divest yourself from what other people care about - and recognize when you have an opportunity to be tested, maybe that's harder than any of the other stuff.

 

I'm pretty bad at it, and am over-sentimental, like "stuff", have a big ego, a very very violent tempter, etc. but at least being aware of the issue is probably the only reason the guys at longquan even talked to me. They asked me about myself, and I told them I forgot who I was and wanted to remember, and that I was training martial arts. One of them asked me "Would you like me to test you?" in a pretty confrontational way, and I said "I guess you just did." Then they started eating in the mess hall with me whenever I came.

 

I think you can find the people if your heart is right. I don't think the right people would ask you to pay tons of money, either but that's just an IMHO. If they need to teach you a lesson about attachment to money, they can have you burn it or something instead of living in palatial homes.

 

EDIT: I once heard Carlos Santana, of all people being interviewed, and talking about "Merging the flesh with the light". Within my own limited understanding - that's what it's all about. Pre-natal spirit with pre-natal energy.

There are people here who have the real mojo, but it's difficult to find.

 

It's certainly not easily accessible in any of the PLA run famous temples.

 

That doesn't mean it's not there, though either.

 

Even in temples there are lineages within lineages, and nobody knows what's there unless they are put on to it. Even other people living there.

 

I think - as far as accessibility goes - Taiwan is probably better . . .

 

As I mentioned before there are also people in other countries throughout asia who have been fleeing the hanzu for hundreds of years, and live as hill tribes in other countries that are Taoist, as well but they don't have any famous people teaching publicly

 

There are also lots of KMT people in countries other than Taiwan. Thailand having the most, I would say and some of them have some good stuff.

 

My step grandfather (my step mother is Chinese) was a high ranking KMT general, and I know that alot of people who had formal training got out during or shortly after the civil war.

 

But there are still people here who can teach you alot, I think. Maybe moreso than other people.

 

For example, the abottess of one of the nunneries at Wudang is an old lady who went through that period of time, was beaten, suffered terribly, and still wouldn't leave or change or renounce. There is video of her somewhere on youtube I believe.

 

And . . . This is in no means meant as a slight on anyone - seriously.

 

But, given the choice between those who ran, those who renounced, and those who stayed upright in the face of some pretty terrible things - I think I would personally prefer the latter.

 

My feeling is that the real stuff is still here. It just may be that the real stuff isn't (and in my case wasn't) what I expected it to be.

Just as a heads up . . .

 

I'm going to sell WudangQuan.Com and WudangMountain.com . . .

 

The sites (when wdm was up) rank extremely well and pull in lots of related traffic, etc.

 

I want to focus on TaoistTraining.com, and to be honest - have gotten severely ripped off this week (not by any of the people or schools at Wudang, mind you. Just non-payment) and as is par for the course I have no recourse in this country, and am in a sort of bad way at the moment.

 

Additionally - with the current pace of development and other things that are going on, I am more interested in focusing on some other aspects of training.

 

What I'm looking for is probably a high dollar amount to alot of people, but here's my thought process:

 

1. With the traffic that I get, I could convert it into sales of other peoples products pretty easily and make some decent money. I don't want to be involved in doing that, personally though.

2. The various schools around the mountain generally charge at least $500 a month for private students. If I were trying to attract students for a school there, and gained one per month, x12 months that's not an insignificant amount of money.

 

Anyway - at the moment (unless something crazy happens or Santa Clause sends me a nice pre-paid visa/mastercard) I can't afford to maintain the site and TaoistTraining.com.

 

I'm also going back to Yunnan at the earliest possible opportunity (sooner rather than later if I can get some scratch together).

 

So . . . My asking price is in the $ X,000 range.

 

If someone is interested drop me a line at [email protected] and if someone is interested in doing the leg work to find a buyer, I'll give a 15% share of sale so I don't have to do it.

 

Payment would probably be done by escrow, and for the right buyer I can transfer the domains (wudangquan.com and wudangmountain.com) up front in good faith.

 

Crazy amounts of backlinks, high existing traffic, dictionary term domain names, etc. Because of my current necessity (basically to buy my way out of a really bad situation) the right person will get this for a very good price.

 

I can also back up the entire site and restore it to a database after transfer, but I am not wiling to sell off the users. I'll just delete all of those because I think it would not be a cool thing to do.

 

These could be sold off elsewhere, and because of my situation may have to be, but I would prefer to give them to somebody who would do something cool.

 

. . . . And send me some good vibes to hold my temper long enough to get back to Yunnan, treat loss as gain, be tolerant, and not crack any high placed noggins . . .

Touche', my good man.

 

http://www.answersingenesis.org/home/area/...nt_use.asp#apes

 

(admittedly I would like a different source, but there aren't alot of arguments coming out of non-theistic or non-spiritual camps).

 

Also - I'm as prone to fallacious logic as anybody. I usually can recognize it, and I sometimes employ it, but generally and in this conversation specifically - it was unintentional.

 

Here's what the bottom line probably is:

 

Neither one of us, nor scientists (Darwinist or ID people or whatever) can reproduce the conditions of pre-history. How much less can we reproduce conditions before nature as we know it . . .?

 

My belief that large scale evolution didn't take place is just that - a belief, and it's mostly based on a sort of . . . Gut feeling I guess is the word. The idea is so counter-intuitive to me, as to become unacceptable.

 

I believe that human society, and human science is very proud of itself, and its knowledge, but I think it's ultimately based on mostly foolish assumptions and ultimately most of it is wrong.

 

I also believe that evolution cannot be proven beyond anecdotal evidence.

 

Again though, I'm not suggesting that anyone need to change their beliefs, or that I am better (or worse) than anyone who thinks differently.

 

So . . . I think that really - this is a matter of faith on both sides of the issue, because neither side can (demonstrably) go back in time to collect evidence, or re-create the conditions of the times we're talking about. Or even reproduce the results on anything except a microscopic level.

 

I do think that mutation cannot produce new genetic information - only eliminate specific traits (which may be valuable).

 

And - I believe in the permanence of "things" after the initial distinction that must have happened. I think that things, including people, planets, galaxies and universes go through a basic metabolic process of formation-stasis-degeneration, and then a new cycle begins - not that the next cycle improves on the previous one.

 

Getting into a link posting ping pong tournament seems like a bad idea. I'm not a qualified biologist. Perhaps you are, but . . . Again I think it comes down to belief in the end.

 

I believe that dinosaurs and people co-existed, and that natural selection (as in most species co-existing at the one point, and then dying off due to environmental factors) but not Darwinian evolution.

 

Buy my new dinosaur qigong DVD series for only 3 easy payments of 39.99. It really works. Why else would humans still be around?

 

Jonathan

No wudang, the "Bible Man comment" was actually in reference to a radio preacher who calls himself the "Bible Answer Man". He and other creationists just happen to use the same disproven old arguments and outright lies that non-christian creationists tend to use (i.e. those that don't look at the actual proof of evolution, which is by now an observable FACT).

How do you figure that evolution is incongruent with Taoism, especially with the passage quoted above from the TTC "Tao begat One, One begat Two, Two begat Three, Three begat the Ten Thousand Things". What better way to poetically describe Common Ancestry?

 

Hey Taoist81,

 

I'm not, personally a big fan of Christianity, and I'm not interested in defending it. Because of my epilepsy and another genetic "condition" I started having OBE's and some audio/visual percpeptions that were outside of normal consensus realty at a pretty early age. I spent the first 15 years of my life with those people trying to "cast it out" of me.

 

That's a big part of the reason I learned how the bad juju works. Because I had it done to me every Wednesday and Sunday for years, but I was having (what I perceive to be) genuine spiritual experiences, and I knew that what they were doing was something manipulative.

 

As far as the Lao Zi quote goes . . .

 

I agree that matter and all forms in the phenominalogical universe have the same origin. From men to monkeys to the internet to rocks and trees.

 

That correlation doesn't necessitate the internet having developed from trees, or men having developed from monkeys though, imho.

 

Now, if you wouldn't mind - I would like to ask two questions for you.

 

While there is always adaptation and mutation within a species, can science offer any conclusive proof (other than anecdotal evidence of rocks dating fossils, fossils dating the rocks, and their own conjecture) of genome level change?

 

Would you disagree with this statement: Any mutation resulting in a genetic change always produces a lower organism. (Based on millions of tests with fruit flies etc)

From the just beginning to cultivate spiritual body (Yang Shen) successfully, we can divide the process to be nine steps:

1. Qi bourgeon inside and outside;

2. The Small Heavenly Orbit (He Che) gotten through;

3. Xuanguan (the mystical entrance) come into being;

4. Ji bourgeon inside and outside;

5. The great Heavenly Orbit runs;

6. Qi channels and points disappear, the sphere-heavens Taiji (your own small Xuanji Matrix) comes into being;

7. Your Spiritual baby (Yang Shen) appears;

8. The Spiritual baby (Yang Shen) leaves your body;

9. Your Spiritual body (Yang Shen) full grown with billions of avatars.

Here are the names of the nine steps above, as for the details, I have described them in my Internal Cultivation Course -- Part III Chinese version (English Version is not available yet).

 

Li Jiong,

 

What are the characters or pinyin for the chinese word you translated as avatar?

 

Is it TaoShen, FaShen, or something like that?

 

Another question - in your practice what is the domain of the "avatar" Does it do its things in this dimension, another or other particular ones, or in all of them up to your current cultivation level or attainment status of the part of you that is cultivated?

 

Hope the question is clear.

 

I would just order your course and try to decide what I thought about it but I don't have a paypal or non-chinese bank account.

 

I would definitely be interested in reviewing all of the material though, but you know - my income is not so good as alot of other peoples. So if you need proofreading or something from Chinese to English sometime do let me know.

 

You should come meet me at wudang during this next golden week if you don't have plans. My friend is getting married on the mountain next week so it would be fun and I am a bit interested in knowing about your school and seeing our practices!

 

Regards

 

Jonathan

Haha if the "Bible Man" or whatever thing was directed at me - I would really prefer if it wasn't, because I'm not a practicing Christian. I just meant to give some background on what was probably the formative process of my inclination not to believe in Darwinism.

 

I'll also try to always be friendly with people, even if they want to ridicule me for what I do or don't believe in - and try to bear in mind that I'm on a forum where people believe in babies emerging and crawling out of their foreheads from GB14. And so take it with a grain of salt.

 

Regardless though, I am not trying to convince or change anyones mind, or proselytize. Just talking and exchanging ideas. Neither do I care what people think about me as long as I am doing my best to live, think and be right.

 

That said - for all of the puritanical stuff I read about Taoism being a "religion", lineage, Daoshi vs. Dao Ren and all that - If it's such, and people want to dwell on that, than you can't pick and choose as it's convenient to your preconceived or preconditioned notions.

 

For the people who are into the all you can pay for buffet spirituality - that's fine with me too, and what you do is your choice, and I respect the decisions that you make for yourselves.

 

Here's the thing though - As long as no ears from Zhongnanhai are pressed against the doors, Taoism is not congruent with Darwinian evolution. Period.

 

I was going to say something like - so the obvious question becomes "Is you is or is you ain't?". . . .

 

But, the truth is that everybody has higher or lower enlightenment quality than others, and mine may be the lowest of all.

 

My guess is, though that if you polled all of the lineage holders, priests of high accomplishment, and diligent cultivators of the Tao in Asia - at least 85% of them wouldn't believe that they evolved from a monkey, and they would (and I can) cite semi-canonical texts to refute it.

 

Anyway, for those hoping to become better monkeys - good luck with it. I am not trying to stop you.

Hi,

 

Just wandering if it's possible to subscribe to topics I post in or am interested in?

They powered the Thunderdome with pig poop!

I'll see your fizzards and raise you a chinchiluman, sir!

 

So I have to come clean and say that (if it's not obvious) my non-belief in Darwinism isn't due to any kind of Taoist insight, or mysterious matrixes - I just can't get with it.

 

When I was little I wanted to be a paleontologist. Really badly.

 

My dad was one of those sorts of dads who teaches you how to play baseball, fight, camp in the woods, do math, and gives you your first rifle (Winchester, .22 bolt action) at 10 years old, with a rack, and a cleaning kit, and live rounds that you get to keep on your bedroom wall.

 

He also took me fossil hunting all the time since that's what I was interested in. At his house, I still have a pretty impressive collection of stuff. Crinoids, trilobytes, brachiopods, and other assorted vermin of that era.

 

Another thing he did was buy a literal bookcase of "creation science" material. So I'm influenced by that, for sure.

 

But there are some things . . . Like these obviously human footprints with 5 toes, and an embedded trilobyte that's been stepped on like a dirty cockroach. Or human tracks intersecting with dinosaur tracks.

 

A decent enough number of them, too.

 

And of course - everybody's first thought (and a rational one) is that they're probably faked.

 

But - there are a couple of things that are inherent in these fossils which cannot be faked.

 

For example - the mud up-push Around the periphery the mud is pushed up. So when the weight of the foot (human or dinosaur or whatever) went into the mud, it displaced and pushed up some mud around the edges. Really this can't be faked, I think.

 

Also - there are sedimented layers, which were deposited at different times. If you cut through them with a laser, the cross section looks like this:

 

------------

------------

------------

------------

------------

 

 

But in these fossils - it's like this:

 

--- ---

---____---

---____---

---____---

---____---

 

Which would lead you to maybe believe that the pressure of the bodies weight pushed those layers below the surface down where the foot landed. As far as I know there is no way to carve fossil under fossil.

 

That being said - I am a Taoist, and not a Christian evangelical or something, and I don't really believe that the earth was made by Santa Clause in 7 days.

 

But my Taoist teachers have also told me that darwinism is wrong, and almost universally agree that there was a catastrophic flood that wiped out the majority of life on the planet.

 

I just think that probably - the appearance of evolutionary progression is due to the lower species being buried and deposited first and the higher ones gaining the high ground.

 

That, and the absense of any tarantulemurs in the fossil record, or parlaying around in the trees anywhere today.

 

And . . You know - I'm probably just a big dummy who doesn't understand it all, but I don't believe in the easter bunny, PanGu, the Great Pumpkin or tarantulemurs.

 

That all being said - I find most of the creation mythologies of all cultures (Semitic, Chinese, Native American, etc.) considerably more likely than my great grandaddy eating some shrooms in Africa and shape shifting from a baboon into a Cossack.

 

All jokes aside though, within my particular Taoist cosmology, and everything that I have been taught - the earth wouldn't even exist without human life.