Seth Ananda

Sorry I can't claim expertise in either. Sticky subject. Spirits are real. What they are out side of that, who knows. I don't really want to fall into any particular set of conclusions about them other than that they are real. They like being treated as real. Some spirits find the psychological view of them mildly amusing while others find it insulting. Some people have said they are split off parts off ourselves which makes no sense to me any more. Had to many 'shared' spirit encounters to accept the psychological interpretation. That came from Victorian mages who wanted to retain some 'credibility' by being all sciency... thanks Crowley. Some say they {generally} cloth themselves with our expectations. I don't mind that, as long as it doesn't become an 'all gods of this type are the same being' kind of thing. Some times one Jupitarian god seems to be a very different being to another for instance. Some say they are not psychological manifestations as much as manifestations of our own true nature. To that, well I would say why stop it at us. Our divine spark is part of the One which all things come from so why would I try to rob spirits of their own divine spark? {by believing they just come from me and mine} Some bring up Construct spirits, servitors, and obvious examples of a culture changing a spirit into some other kind of spirit, like Ishtar into Ashteroth as examples. That is probably the trickiest area. Ishtar is still Ishtar, invoke and see. Some Mages still get Ishtar when they Invoke Ashteroth but some specifically get a male demon. Having strong animist leaning, I tend to towards the universal mind being an ensouling process. When a part breaks off the body of a mountain spirit, that 'rock' has been born as a new being. From this perspective, I might say that Divine Mind imagines or contemplates all beings into being. And when a Mind {within Divine mind} Imagines a new type of being, it is an event also within Divine Mind so it comes into being. That still gives me no ownership or rights over the new being {not talking about uninteligent constructs} and I can not even claim the Idea itself. All Ideas that I have are alive prior to me within Divine Mind. So I lean that direction but not totally, and it is not even that important to me. What is important is that I treat spirits with respect, and admire their abilities and continue to learn from them. They are real for me and for anyone who gets some decent interaction with them.

I can't believe I forgot to add Ancestors to my list. I keep an permanent Ancestor shrine in my home. In many cultures the Ancestors are your introduction to the spirit world, and they are very protective. My Daughter loves the shrine and insists on offering food, doing plays or telling them stories...

Oh and a final final final note. Pacts. Always fulfil your promises. I know of no way of getting around this. If you are stupid enough to offer your pinky finger in exchange for something, once the 'something' arrives, you give your finger. In other words, don't make promises you wont want to keep.

Here is my understanding of how to approach Grimoire work safely. First, if you just wanted to jump right in to Grimoire work, then work with books like Ars Paulina, Almadel of Solomon {the lemegetons fourth book} or with the Angelic or Good spirits chapter from the Grimoire you may be interested in. {if it has one} Ars Paulina has a section specific to meeting the Angel of the degree of your own Natal ascendant Having a connection to this angel will be most useful later on when dealing with other spirits. If you wish to be more cautious in your approach, consider that many {not all} schools did not begin evocation until you had done either or both the following: gained Knowledge and Conversation of the Holy Guardian Angel ~KCHGA~ Or had made a genuine solid contact with the One {say in neo platonism} or Atum {in Hermetics} which is the same thing. The experiences gained through achieving either of these make you sensitive to and aware of your own Being. This will be crucial later when you begin the work with the heavier spirits. A muggle doing this stuff can have no understanding of when he is being Influenced by the Beings he is working with, and the only clear method I know of to know this is to be able to feel ones 'Being' very clearly, which will make it instantly obvious if something is trying to exert control over you. If you have a more Pagan slant or just want added back up, Find a Solar deity or a wrathful Deity or both, that you feel innately attracted to, and start making friends. Make them a shrine and Keep it. Leave offerings, meditate, pray and Invoke. If the God/Goddess responds favourably you are on your way to making friends. It shouldn't need to be said, but always be totally honest with the Gods. Developing this relationship will bring many many wonderful experiences and blessings, and adds another wall of defence against problematic spirits. If you have a solid connection to the One, have achieved KCHGA, made friends with some Angels, and built a solid relationship with Some Gods, and learnt some Banishing process's, you should have no fear approaching the heavier stuff. That said, some people don't want to do all that and are attracted to the Heavy spirit work right off the bat. I have seen this go.. ..badly.. but I have also seen it go well. Depends on how it is done. The Heavy spirits are not all totally 'evil' but they are chaotic. A churning mass of passions, desires, fury, power and so on. Many there are totally self-centred, or nearly so. Once again one needs to make friends. The Successful demonolaters I know that went straight into this path refused to see the Demons as enemy's, and you know what, {like people i guess} the Demons often respond well to that. Spending time reading through the lists, seeing which being you are attracted to working with is a start. Taking a note from the ATR conjur traditions and making an offering to the spirit each day for a week before the conjuration tends to shift its mood towards you as well. {and removes what Lisiewski refers to as the slingshot effect} {Thanks Aaron Leitch} Some forgo using the circle as it is aggressive and not very open. I would recommend forgoing it myself for this path but each to their own. Its a pretty ballsy move but the spirits appreciate the trust and respect. It will be pretty clear fairly quickly into the Invocation if the spirit gells with you or not. If not, just cease the evocation, thank it and make offerings to it again. If you have made your weeks worth of offerings It will probably let you go no problem. If it is going well, treat it with respect and reverence. Ask for ways to deepen contact with it, if you feel you would like to build that relationship. My final note, I never follow the Grimoires in their instructions to order the spirits around, to threaten or try to inflict pain. I tried it with Belial, and while I had good results at first, I paid later. And it never felt natural to me, in fact it felt quite unethical. And funnily enough, 'evil' beings come off as far less 'evil' when given some respect. {still dangerous and unpredictable though} My final final note, is spirits are real. If you treat them as psychological manifestations of your own mind, they will resent you and things will go badly for you. Also you will continually underestimate them and their capacities...

I thought this was a thought provoking, moving and in some ways profound Doco about a fellow who decides to pretend to be a Guru... http://www.abc.net.au/iview/#/program/24076

I may as well say my peace on the subject. A Grimiore is a book of spirits, and the specific rituals are Keys to contact a spirit from within it. That is all they are needed for. once contact has been made, with a spirit that is open to working with you, you can {almost} throw the book away, as the spirit itself will dictate the ways and means to contact it in the future. The Grimiore has served its purpose. Ideally though the Magician will make friends ~ or working relationships ~ with a variety of spirits with different skill sets. I side with authors such as Jake Stratton-kent and Aaron Lietch who see Grimiors as the wests form of Shamanism. Traditionally a Shaman would have to gain spirit allies to help him in his job. He would usually inherit one or several from his teacher, which would be passed along to him by learning their songs, and sometimes by being given an item that the spirit lives in. Next he would have to find some of his own. He needed spirits from all three worlds ~ upper, middle and underworld ~ and if he wanted to heal people he needed healing spirits, if he wanted to be able to break curses he needed powerful friends from upper and lower worlds, and if he wanted to do something else, he would have to find one to do that... the Grimiores are books of spirits that serve different functions. Healing, information, destruction... And at least from following JSK research, the Grimiore Magician in history ~ A Goen in Greece for instance ~ served the same role in his or her community as a Shaman in a tribe. They helped the dead pass over, did divinations, healings, protections, curses and so on. There is currently quite a revival of the Grimiore traditions and Conjur Magick in the west, and it is exciting to observe and be a part of it. Especially with the cross pollination of the ATRs and the Western traditions...

Hrumph... The only way to learn is to do it. If you are not a practising Hermetisist or Occultist, please go post about your fears in the general forum. Evocation is one of the grande sciences and I would almost go as far as saying that if you don't practice Evocation, you barely practice Magick.

Hadean Press has many great editions as well, and Nephilim Press has the Book of Abrasax which I am quite fond of

I love their work. I have 'At the Crossroads' which is a compilation of articles by Grimiore magicians who made there way over into studying African Traditional Religions {ATR's} and how that effected their practice and perceptions of western magick. ~ Really worth buying, especially if you practice Evocation or plan to. The ATRs have been practicing conjur magic in an uninterupted stream for 1000s of years. They have much Knowledge on the subject.

Doreal's channeled 'Emerald tablets' have nothing to do with the actual emerald tablet. Doreal was part of the early new thought movement, or what is now called 'new age' and he created his own brand of mysticism/occultism, and good for him. But I believe he is a fraud and conscious off it. Claiming his Emerald tablets are the real ones, from 36k bc and even writing in 'Atlantean' language on it to make it look authentic should ring alarm bells. The real Emerald tablets on the other hand, have a solid footing in history. When Egypt was the great centre of learning, sages from around the world travelled to it to learn and discuss with other sages. They would marvel at its emerald appearance, and muse about what it was made of. These thoughts made it into history. Also rubbing's were taken, and translations were made and carried back home in many diverse languages - Arabic, Greek, Chinese and so on... From these records {over a couple of hundred years if I remember correctly} it is fairly certain what the emerald Tablet said. Unfortunately the Emerald tablets themselves have not been seen since the time the Christians burnt down the Library of Alexandria. My bet is some Egyptian priest hid them or that the Catholics have them secure under the Vatican somewhere ~ Hey dan brown is not the only one allowed to imagine Anyway despite that loss, we still know what they said. And it is nothing to do with Doreal.

Respek! I can survive in the bush, and can hunt with bows, spears and traps, but I need much more levelling up on non-animal bush tucker here in Australia, which I will be doing over the next few years. I can pick some locks, cant do lockwood ones yet... I am easily irritated by stupidity or foggy thinking! I am skilled with a variety of medieval weaponry I can move very silently I will survive the Zombie Apocalypse! I have a beard {which ups my survival chances significantly}

Not for a long while but I used to spend lots of time on the Shiva Sutras, the Pratyabhijnahrdayam, Spanda Karikas and similar texts, but also on the Ecstatic Poets, like Kabir, Lalita, Rumi or Hafiz... It was a sure way to become unspeakably intoxicated with the divine

Alwayson this is a Buddhist discussion forum. It is here so that Buddhists and non Buddhists can discuss Buddhism without being hijacked by Taoists and Vedantins {lol, though many would say it usally happened the other way around} You cant try to bully someone out of this forum that is actively discussing Buddhism, with a genuine interest in Buddhism, or one aspect of it that this thread is named after... If a Christian was here pretending to be Interested, but really trying to convert others to Xtianity then that would be Dodgy... But If they were here just to have a better understanding of the tradition then that would be fine...

Thanks for sharing that TI, but I just dont think that is clear light. Sure it is 'an experience' but clear light, at least in everything I have ever read about it is not some 'experience' of a substance or energy flowing out of your face... Sure I might be wrong, but show me some traditional teaching that says clear light is an energy that flows out of your face... I thought clear light was more like: How you perceive naturally when obscuration's are less present, as it has to do with the true nature of mind... I have experienced what I think was possibly clear light several times during dreaming. In each case the experience came on after my dream images suddenly dissolved into open aware luminosity. Each time, my mind and perceptions were suddenly 'open' empty, and full of clarity and luminosity... And i felt in those moments that I was experiencing the actual nature of mind... Also very blissful and heart moving, but so are lots of things. Unless you can show me something traditional that say clear light comes out of your face, I would say enjoy your experiences but dont jump to premature conclusions as to the nature of them...

Hmm, so why are 'you' into this stuff?

As for the Topic. Some people here seem to think that clear light is somehow some astral space, or even an energy? Berzin Archives has this to say about clear light: "Now we’ll talk about the clear light mind. The clear light mind is the subtlest level of mind. That’s what actually is continuing moment to moment to moment. It is not a thing. It is like a movie: one moment after another moment. That’s what continues all the way into enlightenment. What are the qualities of this? The clear light mind has the qualities that we would call Buddha-nature. So what are some qualities of it? There are some qualities that are going to abide, remain the same. For instance, the main thing is that it has the ability to understand, to know things. That’s always going to be the same. Because it can understand, because we can know things, we can become a Buddha. If there wasn’t mind, if there wasn’t that aspect of being able to know, how can you become a Buddha? How can you help anybody? The other thing that remains all the time is the voidness of the mind: it doesn’t exist in some impossible way. Voidness means an absence of impossible ways of existing. It doesn’t exist encapsulated in plastic, as a thing that never will change, that belongs to “me,” “my” clear light mind – this type of thing. It doesn’t exist in some impossible way. Because it doesn’t exist in an impossible way when we are in samsara, it also doesn’t exist in an impossible way when we are in nirvana. It is the same. The voidness is the same. Because it is voidness, it can be developed into a Buddha-mind." http://www.berzinarchives.com/web/en/archives/sutra/level4_deepening_understanding_path/buddha_nature/buddha_nature_clear_light_mind/transcript.html So being in the pure land would help you move towards realising it...

Thanks again Can you offer any specifics? I am always interested in these type practices. Also are there practices where you visualise the world or ones surroundings as Pure land or transformed? I love these kind of practices... Which name do you use? Namo Amitabha? Thanks again _/\_

Wow, thanks lin for the reply {sorry i dont know how to type the Chinese characters for yor name} and thanks for sharing about your grandmother Xabir I have been feeling rather uninspired about Buddhism for a while and ceased practising anything apart from non-meditation. This has given me a pep up...

Thanks for your feedback on this thread Would you be happy to describe the main PL practices from your tradition? I thought Buddhists normally viewed the heavenly realms of other traditions as being within the samsaric wheel still as they practitioners usually had not let go of grasping... Very cool... I know Buddhism as a whole is trying to achieve this, but what would you say is Pure lands particular strong point in helping one towards Nirvana? -I dont mean that question as trying to start some 'this is better than that' debate, but rather I think every set of teachings have something that they are really particularly good at, at least for the people suited to it, so I was wondering about PL particular areas of excellence Being a bit of an Alan Wallace fan I also think concentration is supremely important, and almost always overlooked way to quickly by western Buddhists. What are the favoured concentration methods Pure Land Buddhism practices?

When I say transmutation processes I mean through things like Cobra breath, MCO or big draw. These can all help draw highly stimulated sexual energy away from the genitals, and then circulate it which starts the transmutation process...

You! How do you know? It would depend on the kind of simulation that it is...

in tablet form? I have never seen of that here in Aus yet. I just have a dessert spoon full in a glass of water, nearly every morning...

many old or animistic type traditions see reflections of the 3 worlds {Heavenly/earthly/Underworld} in events and creatures. So a storm could well be seen as having underworld forces or beings behind it. But underworld creatures and energies are not seen as 'Evil' but rather as having qualities {at least some of them anyway} that may be course, chaotic, wild, dangerous, greedy, destructive - And totally necessary to life. And an incredibly calm day where all seems at peace would be seen as having the Harmonious vibes of the upper world behind it. Those forces also being totally necessary to life. In this light Wall street could be viewed as an underworld 'temple' of sorts, where desperate greedy people clamour and compete for 'more'...

Hmm.. This is interesting and raises a few questions for me. How does clear light flow? You make it sound like a substance. I thought it was more like just how the mind sees when obscuration's are dropping away? I would love to hear much more elaborations on the seeing from the heart element. How does this relate to Rigpa? Also how similar would you say this phenomena is to the many other traditions that have the 'Hearts Knowing' as a central theme, and that treat the heart as a genuine organ of perception in its own right? Thanks for this lively discussion by the way

Something most here would like to hear much less talk from you about, until you 'prove' your skills with a youtube clip, on passing unsuspecting female strangers.