Seth Ananda

Sorry if i seem overly hostile to the neo-advaitins, its just that I am. Well not really, I really like some of them, but the students, so many of the students, ugh, get the bug spray. Its the superior tone, which I'm very fond of when it is coming from me, but I am intelligent. When self inquirers say they don't have or need a spiritual practice because they just notice what is already always going on, or they just notice the urge to seek, then ask who is seeking and realize that there is no seeker, and then are too stupid to realize that that is a spiritual practice in itself, and that their supposed dropping of doing, is exactly a doing, and one that is no better than plenty of other high level spiritual practices. They drive me nuts. Dinner parties where awesome different spiritual discussions are happening but oh no, someone brought a neo-advaitin as their +1. Suddenly their mewling voice is whining across the table, telling people they don't need to waste their time with their various paths and practices, because its all doing or seeking, and you just need to realize blah blah Anyway, rant over.

I personally think there are quite a few different types of awakening. There are the ball-less types of awakening like ekhart tolle, and so many other ball-less wonders who bore the internet these days, with their smooth voices and their fake unrumpable unruffabable dispositions. To be fair though, it is an attainment, but to me its barely worth mentioning. Its like putting your hand up saying look how special I am I can see whats right in front of me! Of the teachers in this branch I do like Mooji just because he seems like he actually does have a personality and would be fun to hang out with. Do you see the way his lovely women devotees stare at him though? There is no way he is not shagging most of them, and we are probably only minutes away from hearing about the sex scandal. I also like Rupert Spira and Greg Goode. If it doesn't happen for you via such clear inquiry lines then your probably a bit to 'thick' still, and should do other things, like purification practices for a while before trying again. It does not make your life perfect, give you perfect morals and compassion or anything like that though, because the 'person' you are does not just disappear, but rather continues to coexist with the new awareness of the 'awareness' background. That kind of awakening is hardly deep though. Something like Kundalini is an awakening to unity, once it reaches the crown, and of energy and substance. Once it goes, at least if it completes, you will never ever not be able to feel the oneness or wholeness behind and including everything ever again. Its just right there. Some however may want and miss the intensity of the first experience, and over time they will get more and more satisfied with what they can now feel naturally, especially as their concentration ability increases. Kundalini may or may not give the type of awakening that the neoadvaita peeps describe. I rarely hear Kundalini types waffling on in that bland manner about how "everything already is just as it is, and no body has to do anything because it is already the way it will always be!". K heads are usually far more alive seeming, unless they are in Samhadi or absorbtion. They are usually deeply keyed into the dynamism of life, and are living with far more vividness and sense of the cosmic underpinnings {other than just consciousness} and bliss and vitality than the white cardigan wearing grey little neoadvaitans could possibly deal with without bursting a ventricle. It does not make your life perfect, give you perfect morals and compassion or anything like that though, because the 'person' you are does not just disappear, but rather continues to coexist with the new awareness of the cosmic vibrating background. When it comes down to it however I think these are really two sides of the same level of awakening. The consciousness side and the energy and substance side. The boring and incredibly peaceful consciousness of consciousness and the sometimes overexciting energy and happenings and consciousness of cosmic stuff. Ideally both would be present to round each other out. After that it gets deeper. The pairing away of the restrictions that make consciousness seem bound to location, or locally focused. {this may have been temporally experienced during K at crown awakening or during neo-advaita awakening.) The deeper realizations of the emptiness or illusiory or dreamlike nature of all things, the blossoming of true and deep compassion to serve for all time, and the cessation of suffering and attachments in the normal sense as a result of deeper and deeper knowledge.

Quite a thread Necro! I'd like to add that a good friend of mine studies with D.V. these days, and has had very positive experiences. He is aware of some of the contentions/history that people have had with him, yet he finds him to be quite humble these days, and says that if he was like how some describe, then he must have changed a lot. D.V. seems to hang out in Thailand {I think it was} and has assembled a whole crew of cool individuals that hang out and practice together. There is a Tibetan Dzogchen teacher, various qigong people and students of the various people. From what it sounds like, they all just hang out and practice - Shit loads. Also these days D.V's stuff is quite inexpensive.

Is there any way to have one drew free conversation somewhere about this subject?

Douchwizard. He complains about being thought of as a dumb stupid hick, but listening to him speak I can't help sympathizing with their perspectives.

From what I have heard from personal friends of the Dalai Lama, he is quite accomplished on the Siddhi level. But yes, he hides it very well. You should watch him when he does Chod rituals. The humble posture disappears entirely and he utterly presides over the proceedings. Powerful stuff happens in those. One guy I knew was schizophrenic and in the middle of a psychosis when he was taken to see the D.L. He was told to line up and give a scarf to the D.L. as he walked past. He handed the scarf to him but the D.L. stopped and looked at him. Then D.L. sort of pulled his head in towards a head hug, and did something with his hands which the guy could not see. What this guy felt was that something got peeled off him, and pulled out of his head. His psychosis was over but he also never had any symptoms of schizophrenia again.

No sorry, no idea.

I have heard a few good things about this guy, but I have not seen him myself: http://www.naturaltherapypages.com.au/connect/wangprofessionalptyltd/service/32895

And the data received by the senses is subject to the tools used to measure them in the first place. Your next example is perfect to use: Say I am color blind? Then I may quite literally not be seeing the same color as you. Say I just had an operation to give me a mantis shrimps eyeball? Then I am seeing a whole host of colors that you will never see? Red tends to be red but we can not allways be absolutely certain about that. The senses give inter-subjective data only.

The intersubjective {as I and some phenomonologists use it} describes the same thing that most people use the word objective to describe. (just without the unnecessary baggage and ossification risks) Something being Intersubjective does not mean all the laws of science suddenly just fly out the window. It does not mean 'everything is suddenly equally true' and nothing is false if someone believes it. Also Intersubjective does not mean 'highly subjective', like our personal inner worlds. All it means is that 'truths' that get discovered, are grabbed just a little less tightly, and with slightly more willingness to continue to explore other options as or if they arise. Of course you can. Demonstrate in someway that there is an 'objectivity' that is not subject to the tools of measurement that perceive it. Until then I stand by seeing the concept as an outdated imprecise and highly dangerous virus of the mind. 'objectivity' as real, is a flawed perspective and it is simply an recent idea, one which has no scientific evidence to back itself up whatsoever, and thus seriously needs to be dropped being a principle that is as vague as 'God'. As for me missing what I am, I want to post a face palm meme but I can't be bothered. Intersubjectivity and all our personal inner subjectivity you could say are many many windows into the what is and what we are. You might believe that 'what is' is the objective reality, yet how do you see it? how do you think about it? How do you approach it? Only ever by subjective data producing methods! You may as well not talk about it because you will never experience it or know it in any way, as the 'it' will always be subject to the tools used to measure it. Subjective tools, subjective results. But outside of the impossibility of objectivity, things and self can be known via multiple inter-subjective avenues. I have a deep awareness of my selves, I have my ideas of myself, I have my feelings towards myself, I have the various relationships between these levels and themselves and the other levels. Its wonderful, rich and complex. The understandings of myself has only grown and been nurtured by my shedding off of the objectivity virus. I could grunt and say "I just am what I am, and that is objective!" But that is a lie. Its bullshit, and its a nasty brutal statement by someone who has almost no inner life and barely any self awareness. Which self would even make that statement? Which lens or approach to the self gets to makes it either? Which selves get left aside to be disowned, pushed down, devalued and raped? All so one rigid, terrified self that wants center stage, and the safety that certainty and moral absolutism give that comes from always being right? Belief in objectivity leads to a disgusting state of affairs both internally and externally, and the sooner we are rid of it the better. When you believe in objectivity, and believe that you have it, then you are right and true. Just like that. All else becomes secondary. It moves us away from relationality. It moves us away from our bodies into our minds. We can at the very least be 'short' with other less objective people. Or we are justified in belittling them, not listening to them, or worse or far far worse. Because we are right, and they are wrong. Men are justified in thinking women are less in this worldview because of a social belief that women are emotional and men are rational. The crap this causes is appalling. Women in this view end up just being seen as 'things' that are meant to be pleasing to us in our lofty 'objective' thrones. Specialists act superior to everyone around them because they 'know' and others dont. I saw a doctor arguing against a theory because it was coming from a layperson. That layperson had to show the doctor the medical journal it came from. That same doctor does not listen to his patients and is a condescending prick to the nurses. Because he is right and they are less. Nature is dominated and fucked over repeatedly because we are objective and know what is best. We are better than Nature. Inter-subjectivity cures a degree of this sickness that is at the root of our worlds psyche, because subjectivity and inter-subjectivity are inherently relational. Unfortunately objectivity is inherently rapey as it creates an un-relational black and white power dynamic of write and wrong. If something has a subjective element {and don't worry, everything does} then there is always another perspective, somewhere, and diversity is valued as the fabric of existence itself.

How can it be? Its a belief for one, and any attempt I take to measure or observe it is subject to the system of measurement or observation that I use, and therefore still subjective. Objectivity is found nowhere. Whatever seems valuable based on the best scientific/philosophical/psychological/social/spiritual data that is currently available. Not lost, in fact it is the most freeing observation possible. One only becomes lost and unfree when they think they have absolute truth, ie objectivity. As soon as one thinks they have absolute truth, freedom ends. There can be no adjustment, no advancement and no flexibility. There is only a rigid adherence to ones own, automatically right view, and the ossification and slow fossilization of ones entire mental and psychological outlook. I do find it strange however that you did not challenge any actual points that I made. Instead you retreated immediatly into unclear speculation about my state of freedom or lack of. What's with that?

Haha this old chestnut, I remember quite a debate here about it a while ago. My stance is that there is no objective reality for us, or anything else. Or that there may be and probably is one, but not one we will ever see, touch, know anything about, or ever be able to speak about with any level of certainty. I think that the term 'objectivity' is a clumsy and philosophically imprecise attempt at describing the stuff that we all share and interact with, which does not change, unlike all the subjective stuff. I side with the phenomenologists who prefer to call the shared universe, and all the laws about it that we have discovered and used so well, 'Inter-subjective'. The 'Inter' part of the word is to describe the shared nature of experience. The 'Subjective' part is to help us remain aware that there is never any form of Objectivity anywhere. I say this because everything is subject to the tools used to measure or observe or even think about it with. Touch is subject to the nervous system that feels it. Sight is subject to the eye or lens structure that views it, the amount of color it is capable of receiving. A creature that has an eye that works more like a fish-eye camera lens sees the 'shape' of things in totally different terms to us, yet its experience of the world is just as real and unquestioned to it, as ours is to us. Mathematical formulas are subject to the number systems that are used, and number problems that may exist are sometimes absent in 'base 12' or other types of number systems. Scientific evaluations are subject to the types of measuring equipment, that they use. Back in the day this gave us the particle wave problem. One form of experiment showed particles, and another different one showed waves. Which one was it? Oh no! Its seems that people who reject this idea in kneejerk reaction style are deeply fearful rationalists, and frankly I can't blame them. They seem terrified that if they admitted that their senses and brains are only one kind of measurement tool, then the world will just descend into irrational chaos. People will bump their heads trying to walk through walls, someone who channels a new cosmic my little pony will be given just as much credibility as the latest scientific advancement. In a world of fluff and stupidity these rationalists have armored themselves with "Serious Facts Dangnamit!" To hold themselves above the great unwashed, knowing their superior nature as knowers of TRUTH! On the other hand much has been written on the psychologically damaging effects of certainty, and the negative repercussions it has within the brain and within the entire worldview or outlook. This is why the Idea of 'intersubjective' is so important. It allows us to continue to discover and learn actual science, laws, and can accept them as real enough {or shared enough} to be worth investing in, but not so real that it can never become improved, refined or even outdated. Look at how many Scientists suffer from the rigid thinking that comes from believing in totally true objectivity. A scientist makes an advancement which is 'true' today, but years later the original theory is challenged or updated and the Scientist cracks the shits. "It is True Goddamnit!" And he fights tooth and nail against the new theory. Imagine how much further we would be along scientifically, if we were able to accept good conclusions, based on the best we currently have, as true enough, and not need to to make it Absolute Truth. Thats the problem with believing in Objectivity. If there is an 'Objective' world then there is a really real Absolute Truth out there. From what I can tell, science took this idea from the church. Once the church said God was the really real Absolute Truth. Then the Scientists said, no, actually its not God, its... these scientific principles! They are the really real Absolute Truth!!! Objectivity and the corresponding really real Absolute Truth are viruses in the mind. They close people off to possibilities {even sane and very well researched ones} and make tyrants rather than explorers. When you 'Know' Absolute Truth, because you 'are' objective, curiosity and exploration end, and they are essential to good science.

My practice uses attention to the inside/outside impressions. Before bed, when all the lights are off, I walk slowly around the house, and around the outside of the house and use my feeling sense to carefully feel out the energy qualities or possible spirits in the area I exist within. I pay particular attention to any living denizens of the animal or plant variety that also share the location. Then I go to bed. In bed I continue to be aware of my local environment, but also shift my attention to feeling myself. The qualities that I am composed of. I look at how well the different aspects of myself are working together or not. If not, this gentle form of attention is often enough to correct things. Next I often spend some time feeding the location and its beings with appreciation and gratitude, and then I let myself start to wander about, {with my mind senses} and I see what unfolds from there. Depending how it goes, sooner or later I drift into sleep and dreams. This tends to be a great way for me to unpack my day, straighten things out within me, and keeps me learning about the nature of the dreaming soul, perception, and the Animistic universe.

Oh what a good thread. This looks like it will be very interesting, and time consuming dangnamit! Thankyou Zhongyongdaoist

I find this to. {I'll call it inner heat practice rather than Tummo, because Tummo also relates to a host of other things beside heat} Its kind of annoying actually. The only real success I can get with inner heat practice is via full lotus, outside, with at least weeks or months of non ejaculation. Sure I can get a lot of heat in my LDT, but to get it to a point where it flows through and around my body and counteracts cold, I pretty much must be doing lotus position, at least a lot, to get things started. It feels like it draws up so much earth energy via the perineum.

My experience has been like this: Tense or forced concentration does not develop very well and can even burn out. Relaxed gentle concentration gets stronger and stronger, is easily sustained and can become immensely pleasurable.

I'd doubly like to +1 thelerners post. 'How' you arrived at these memories is incredibly important While SRA certainly does happen, it is very very rare. 'Uncovered' memories, often destroy lives and families. If it was gained via hypnosis, past life regression, or a therapist who deals in SRA kind of stuff there is a very high possibility that it is all utterly a sham. The problem {in the many many fake situations} though is that you 'remember' it and It feels so real. But what is memory? Do memories feel as vivid as dreams can be? The dreaming mind is actually always active, but we only usually have awareness of it when our primary mind shuts down somewhat. Like in sleep, trance, hypnosis, past life regression or certain types of catharsis or hyper aroused states. One of the dreaming minds functions is working as an experiential narrative device. That means that it is constantly making stories, to make sense of your life and to help find resolutions. In this function it can translate feeling and questions, fears and so on into images and symbolic story experiences. Past life therapy will take a person who has a water phobia, down into dreaming mind, where invariably they will 'remember' drowning or some related nasty water incident, and then find a way to resolve it. Helpful dreaming mind! The problems arise however when using techniques like this to get 'this life' information, or via a {sometimes well meaning} unscrupulous therapist who has wholly bought in to the satanic ritual abuse paradigm. If you are wondering why you feel so shit, and wonder if maybe you were abused as a child, and go in in some way, the dreaming mind will happily give you experiential visions of your past that will offer validation to those questions or suspicions. Unfortunately a lot of people believe these. Women claiming that they were satanic sex slaves for Elvis Presley, and other celebrities and presidents, that they were held down by their families who chanted "Go King Go" while they were raped, in underground satanic cathedrals or on equally bizarre locations. Many went on to accuse or press charges against family members, and members of the community, destroying lives, family and trust. Fortunately, many over time start to see the gaps more than the horrific content. little impossibilities that don't sync up, elements that don't make sense or bare up to scrutiny. - That uncle had already passed on at that age, that someone or other was overseas, or that doorway into the underground chamber defies logic, or my family despite selling me and being surrounded by uber rich and powerful satanists are still somehow poor or middle class mortgage suburbanites. Wtf? This eventually helps the victim of these processes or 'therapists' to recognize it as the strange symbolisation and images of the dreaming mind that it usually is. They can then try to rectify any damage they have done to others. Anyone who thinks they are victims of SRA needs to closely examine the memories and how they arrived at them. If you are someone who was genuinely abused in this fashion, then I am terribly sorry for you, and hope you find the help you need. Seth.

Druid was a title given to someone who served their community and its ruler, and who was recognized by both as doing so. You might find Posidonius book 'The Philosopher and the Druids' about the Druids and Celt life interesting. It is a non Roman account. Shaman is a title given by one community to someone who is acknowledged by the community as serving the community of Humans and spirits. If you dont have community recognition you are not a Shaman. It was a social role. That said, Shamanism is used these days as an Anthropological description for the various cultural roles that are similar in nature to the Tungusic role. But being recognized as a 'Shaman' is always dependent on the community acknowledgment of your authority in those realms. I am always highly dubious of any claims to being a Shaman, yet I don't mind people saying they practice in a Shamanistic manner, as long as ones practice and worldview is consistent with actual Shamanistic practice and worldview. Spirit worker or something similar might be a cleaner title till you have appropriate training's that infer the right to use other titles?

Hi, I thought we might benefit from a page devoted to all our favourite books on these wonderful subjects. We could describe their style with a mini review to help inform the others as to whether they would be interested or not. For instance some want more scholarly than practical or vice versa, so those details could be mentioned. So many great subjects with their own fields of expertise!

Interesting. Is this a consistent feature of your day to day experience? If so may I ask how long you have been in this state, and to the nature of your well being? Are you eating and sleeping regularly. Have you tested the spirits? Can they influence the world around you?

Yes. I was considering saying this myself. Some people don't choose it at all, but even the ones that do, that just can't keep away from the subject, well they need encouragement and access to the good material. Instead they usually get a bunch of 'opinions' from scared know nothings about the dangers or evils of spirit work. Double yes.

Sure, but if you have a constant drive and calling to this area then you have to start somewhere. It depends on the tradition. Although I would say that most traditions will have ordeals at times, and they serve very important functions in this work. It is if you know what you are doing. Speak for yourself. Many people may be fooled buy not knowing the difference between their imagination and an actual spirit, but there are many ways to test the spirits. lol, where did you read that, and whatever or who makes that the benchmark? Its not nearly as neat as all that. A Shaman for instance was often expected to have spirit friends from many levels, and all bring their own challenges and gifts to the table. Even the 'higher' ones. ??? Do you have physical friends who are not enlightened, or do you spend all your time begging at the feet of some Guru. Apparently so.

Find a spirit you would like to make contact with. If it has known symbols and/or offerings, use them. Call it to visit you. If not, just set something out you think it would like. Anything given from the heart is probably good. But if successful make sure to ask it if it liked the offerings and what it might like in the future. Working with your ancestors is ideal at first, as they will tend to have good intentions directed towards you, and when on good terms with them they can help you deal with other pesky spirits. If there are certain Deity's you feel an affinity for start working with them also. After a while your gang will be assembled and will have your back. Then start working with the others. Don't do stupid things like ask some spirit you barely know to inhabit one of your body parts, but other than that, dare. Dare your pants off. Chuck yourself in with vigor. Read everything you can, at least that people recommend, and put great amounts of it into practice. You will quickly find the best ways for you. Its a surprising and startling path. Who knows where it will take you? it never ceases to surprise me.

Such new age dribble. Asked a newage channel a question about turning mercury to gold, gets told go away and meditate for 20 years and youll be able to do it yourself. - Just like that huh? Are you serious? This is considered 'Alchemy'? It was about as deep and thoughtful as a moldy sock. And it finished with the old faithful empty cup Koan, wow! When is the next bashar workshop, siiiign meee uuuup!

Just curious, are you subtly trying to turn this into a mopai thread? Is the Johny Chang vid the evidence that people are confronted with, next to which everything else is useless, or are you meaning something different?