Seth Ananda

I really can't agree that pain is NEEDED full stop. Sure it is probably inevitable and when it does come at some point, I will hopefully be able to learn from it, as I have in the past, but saying we 'need' it seems a bit ridiculous. Also saying we cant learn to empathize without it makes no sense. My baby daughter for instance was very empathic and compassionate, without having any real pain to draw from in her life experience. I used to subscribe to that theory as well, as I had a hideously twisted upbringing, and as a result I am the most Interesting person I know [egotistical anyone? ] and I would credit the massive challenges I had with inspiring my path and the changes I went through. That still holds true in a way but a few years ago I made a challenging friend. He was good looking, confident and women just love him. He grew up in his family home which is stunningly beautiful {like a fairy dell} with very wealthy parents who always gave him what ever he wanted. His parents were also very soft loving people who had the money to become stay home parents and give him full loving attention. He went to Steiner school in a beautiful location and spent his childhood singing dancing and making art. In his own words he basically had no bad experiences, and had a Value system instilled based on Love, Pleasure, Relationships, Communication and Creativity. He is the most loving person I have met. He has no Neurosis that I am aware of. No fidgets or twitches in his nervous system. He is utterly relaxed. He deals with negative energy from others in a really gently and beautiful way that benefits them both. He really pushed my buttons when I first met him, and snidely I was just waiting to see shit hit the fan for him, that he [in my mind] had no back bone to deal with. But He is beautifully Integrated. He also has an active spiritual life, which challenged me because I also used to think that if people Had it too easy they would not grow or be Inspired to grow, but it is just not true. That old 'suffering is good for you' mind set is just an archaic hang over from barbaric times. Now back to pain. It seems to me that there are a variety of experiences that come under the 'pain' umbrella. Off the top of my head I can think of Positive/constructive pain, Negative pain, and Psychological or Existential pain. If anyone sees more categories please chuck them in. Positive pain: Like from horse stance, holding postures, deep tissue massage, or possibly the body's warning that something is up. I am not sure that these should even be called pain [not including the body's warning system] as there is often a good feeling simultaneously. I would probably refer to these things as 'strong sensation'... Pain from the body's warning system can be absent the positive or beneficial feelings of the others, but i can't say it is needed or even Inevitable. An in tune person, listens to their bodys messages and responds well before it has to resort to pain to get their attention. Negative pain: Pain from disease, injuries... this pain has been shown to reduce life span, decrease quality of life, cause dissociation and increase the likely hood of a variety of other health complications. Sure it can be learned from but why would you want to experience that, when everything learned could have been learned through easier paths. Learning does not Require suffering, but I wont argue that suffering may not sometimes accelerate learning. Modern education has shown that in classrooms, Kids learn best from Fun memory clustering exercises, not from being drilled in a punishing environment. Psychological or Existential Pain: Psychological Trauma, mental health Issues, despair over the big questions can be plain horrible. Pain is definitely an experience here. Pain of the mind. These in some cases can be up there with the worst of the negative pain spectrum, and both drive many to suicide. Again, most of this comes from bad history, and bad coping methods for high stress. it is tragic and quite simply not needed. And while it can help create Interesting and colorful characters, hopefully we will one day have enough awareness as a culture to eradicate these kinds of mental health Issues. This will not be a bad thing [cause people learn from pain] but a very positive thing. Seth.

eeeww!

I disagree. look at the Christians for instance. The first century Christians were very happy and loving pacifists - as their teachings demanded. Their religion spread, [alot] and caught the attention of Rome. The Politicians were on a look out for a new religion to unite the people, and Constantine chose the Christian one eventually as it was the fastest growing religion. from that point on all the Horrors committed were not committed by Christians but by a political war machine in religious garb. I can't call them christian, as they were not following the actual commands of Christ. The people themselves who actually carried out their orders may have believed themselves to be Christian, but they were following what politicians demanded, not what Christ demanded, and most of them had no Idea what was In the bible as no one but priests were even allowed to read the bible at that time. So In reality, their religion was really Roman war machineist as that is what they were following. The Other thing is that positions of power, even ones in Religious institutions attract Psycho/Sociopathic or sadistic Individuals. Those peoples primary motivation is obviously not to be religious {unless possibly it is a war like tradition} but to have an avenue and authority to fulfill their needs. So again these people are not 'really' there to be religious. Its a front. All this said, it can seem like religious organizations can become very corrupt, as Individuals within it get bought or won over by politics, or give way to baser cravings or greed, but my argument is that as soon as this happens, it is no longer a religious organization at any point that it turns away, or finds clauses to Ignore crucial core elements of their teachings... it is then a personal, political or financial organization in religious drag. Obviously religions founded on war like teachings are a different kettle of fish. Judaism, worship of Mars or other war Gods...

Aquarius is an air sign. {mind, thinking, Ideas...} The image is the water bearer, which has deeper occult meanings, but it is an Air sign, not a water sign...

Hell yeah, good post. My longest period of pain came in my early 20's when I couldn't afford a dentist. Over 2 years my tooth rotted down to the gum, leaving the nerve alive and sticking up. it ached constantly, getting more intense over time, and if something brushed the nerve it would floor me. It wasn't till I was turning green and nearly passing out constantly that I got taken to the dental hospital. I think there were probably good sides to this experience, but definitely outweighed by the negative. The fortitude I built up as a resistance also caused me to be less present in my body, which to me is a negative thing. Less present in the body = Less effective in the world. Pain makes us disassociate generally and that is never good,[in my book] as your life will suffer equally. Probably one of the best things was after, getting to look at the tooth stump. I kept it, and it is a strong reminder to love myself more. At the time I had deep levels of self loathing, as I had been brought up believing I was human filth. Good ol christian reality

Some would say its already here... Information obsession and overload, postmodernisation where all Ideas become 'equal' and equally meaningless, nothing is true, everything is permitted, and pluralistic thinking in every court. 'Truth' becomes just another perspective, a Hanna Montanna movie is just as valuable as a Shakespearean play... A Mundane who sits on his ass watching fox news all day is just as important or wise as the greatest Inner explorers, and his lifestyle is just as Valid. Judgement becomes 'uncool'. If someone says an honest statement like "Yeah I stole the money for your operation!" followed by "Don't judge me!" It is supposed to make everything cool or even because of the honesty... It seems like an Apocalypse of meaningless to me. And the decline of human civilization. But I suppose there may be a good side in here somewhere. Small communities of 'superior' Individuals [hehehe] may be able to escape the quagmire of the mundane and highly entertained world, and forge something Beautiful. Small centers of understanding created to outlast this wave of meaninglessness and retain humanities most precious teachings, that we can become something greater. a new type of being. From homo sapiens to homo Numinous.

Nice What? Forget that! I go for seconds, thirds and even 4ths if its available. Its an amazing medicine isn't it.

Hi Kate, and no, I havent read that book, but I will now that you have showed it to me as I love the traditions from that area of the world- Qero, Inca, Aztec, Toltec... Thanks

Absolutely! Atmananda's Advaita is my favorite out there... Goode and Spira's books had a big impact on me, and are very succinctly written A+

I would say that realizing the Dreamlike and Illusory nature of reality does not make you stupid One still see's and lives in ones relative existence, with any responsibilities and duties you may have. One just becomes more and more certain that the relative is lacking in any absolute qualities and is not worth attaching too or trying to get happiness from. That certainly doesn't equal no longer enjoying relative things {like dating} or doing things that would quickly end your relative existence {like stepping in front of a car} or ceasing to take actions that support your relative existence {paying bills} What does change is the tension and anxiety or neurosis that used to comes up in relation to your relative existence falls away, as it {the relative level} no longer has the significance it once had...

Very True... Lots of responsibilities... And not single!

lol, saying all ontology is mental masturbation is hardly a critique...

I Like that, and agree with you. But I certainly would not try to say that it is the only kind of fun. But to me, the unconditioned, the stainless nature of mind is definitely the source of happiness. In fact I would say that every minor moment of happiness is a tiny window through all our conditioning and inner constructs to that wondrous place. Unfortunately that is why I think all the lesser happiness's {the momentary achievements in time} further bog people down in Ignorance. They wrongly attribute the happiness 'gained' to some material object, which makes no sense as happiness itself is coming from their original nature...

Vmarco, correct me if I am wrong, but while you are pointing out the fear in others, you keep mentioning dogs terrorizing all that walk by! That sounds like that includes you? Can you be attentive to heartmind when you are so afraid of these dogs? And maybe i should start another thread, called would a Bodhisattva be terrified of a guard dog? Or a being from a Hell realm? Or an essence stealing Naga? Your bigotry against dangerous breeds also seems to verge on a form of Inter-species racism? Now on the subject, there are many stories of a Buddha or Bodhisattva's presence totally pacifying a wild or dangerous animal, so if you are such an expert on Bodhisattva's why all the negative feelings towards dangerous animals. They are sentient beings as well.

Sure. I probably should have mentioned that in the counseling course, they look at everything from a transpersonal perspective, which can view at least a certain spectrum of 'psychotic' experience as Spiritual emergence, or a genuine birthing into the spiritual world. [like yours] We still study the conventional views of mental Illness as well, but many of the people who have psychotic like experiences from brain sync stuff would be definitely considered Spiritual emergence cases. Unfortunately spiritual emergence when extreme, can turn into genuine psychosis, if it lasts too long, and if the experiencer can not find maps to help process/understand the experience. The danger here is that if it becomes psychosis, and that lasts too long, then it can turn into schizophrenia. It is like the mind which already seem shattered with spiritual emergence or psychosis then stays like this too long and breaks on a deeper level. Schizophrenia. The future is bleak for someone in this situation. Thanks for sharing your experiences by the way Seth.

I don't know of any reincarnation model that sees humans as the only sentient beings... In Buddhism it is said that during samsaric existence we forever cycle between animal, human, hungry ghost, god, demigod and hell realms... Other traditions that see beings as having a soul that is developing, will often teach about a cycle of evolution through stages, so along time ago we were animals, now we are humans, and eventually we will be something greater! Sure on an absolute level, but on a relative level there 'seems' to be continuity, cause and effect and time/space based phenomena... Have fun with those ones Who knows? Many new agers would say you could be a crystal dragon on proxima 9 For some reason people 'usually' report experiences of being here or in heaven or hell like realms. Rather than thinking of reincarnation as a flawed Idea, wait till you have some experience yourself, so there is at least something experiential to make conclusions about, and then decide how you view the subject. Have Fun!

In the mental health part of my counseling course, there were a series of case studies of people who had psychotic episodes just from brain entrainment devises. In the cases I saw, they were people who used the higher frequencies with out having laid a solid foundation with the lower ones first. It seems like it may be a really good Idea to start no higher than Theta for instance for several months. Remember that most of the programs out there are teaching the brain how to go into a state and then how to come back. A track follows a certain progression: Take you in, hold you there, take you back. The next track will take you in, hover at the place of the previous one, take you to the next deeper level, hold you there, take you back to the previous one, hover, then take you back. And it progresses like this. The Important point is that it teaches the brain itself to go in and come back with ease {even without the equipment}. There is a fairly strong danger that if you go in without the brain having had a chance to learn how to get back from the lower states, that it can trigger deep psychosis. On a side note, Synchronicity Foundation had a series only for their 'advanced' practitioners that was meant to train the brain to exist in multiple frequencies simultaneously: Alpha to Gamma range. They only had it on the market for about a month, after a series of psychotic episodes in the community.

Hi all you internal martial art friends out there! When I am at one of my Jobs, {carpentry} I find my self constantly finding or looking for ways to practice or apply the various skills from the IMA. I find it very useful to my IMA in general, and I can always see the improvement in class when I have been at that job. I am sinking when standing, and finding ways to drop tension... When using power tools like belt sanders/angle grinders/jigsaws/orbitals, I am in horse, moving from the waist, and transferring wait when moving... It got me wondering, what Jobs have a reputation [if any] for being very useful to the martial artists development? And what cool discoveries have you all made in finding ways to practice your skills while at work? Respek!

Nice

Now that is a very good and interesting point! i am not saying it has swung me to Yamu's side yet, but yep, eggs are just so stabilizing... {for me} There are few supplements that have an effect like eggs on me personally. The few supplements that I really 'feel' are Tressos B, high doses of low acid vitamin c, good plant based Iron, and Zink. I actually don't take supplements very much. But Tressos B and C are my favourites. But I guess i just believe in the Human Spirit too much to tell someone that they 'cant' be a vegetarian, no matter what, if they really want to be one. Where there is a will there is a way! {please note that this statement of mine is based on my personal beliefs}

Wrong! I don't at all think I have all the answers, but there are countless studies showing that a proper vegetarian diet is not lacking in any nutrients vitamins or minerals whatsoever! Bad Vego diets definitely can be lacking. But not good ones. Um I do not have clinical experience, but just because you do, it does not make your argument more valid. I could find you 10 different clinicians who will all have their own differing beliefs based on their own experiences, and who would argue with you as well - and each other. So clinical experience means nothing. But science has shown, many times that you can get the same amount of needed nutrients in a vego diet as from a meat one. So a scientific conclusion that can not be argued with, is that a meat diet offers the same nutrients as a good vego diet. So how can one be lacking in something unless they are on a Bad vegetarian diet? Its all there in the bare elements. The reason I am arguing with you is because you are presenting your self as an authority on the subject, and as far as I am concerned, you are not. You may be greatly skilled at your trade and even treat very successfully, but I don't think that at all means your conclusions are Infallible, or the opinions you have formed. You keep pulling the 'I have clinical experience and you don't' card. but your opinion becomes just that, an opinion, when there are other clinicians of differing opinion out there as well. Why should I/we believe you over them? I know you hate your 'authority' being challenged, as whenever this happens you get very personal, aggressive, and often nasty, but how are you different to any Doctor who pulls rank on their client, saying "Don't question me, I am an MD!"? I agree. Meat is probably one of the better options, for speedier healing, and one I would take as well, but it is not the only option. Also, If they had had a better vego diet in the first place, they would not be in this situation. Most bad vego diets are highly lacking in Iron and B vitamins, and to go years on this is bad news... I see what you are saying, but I can't fully agree. I personally say anything that works is good, but I can't say that it is not possible by other methods. And what person has tried ALL known solutions? And again here you are talking about Meat as medicine. I won't argue that that can be good, but an already healthy person, can stay healthy on a Vegetarian diet for their life time if they eat right. Hence I still stand by my saying that Everyone 'can' be a healthy vegetarian. Anyway I feel I have said my piece and adequately explained my ideas. I am off to work in the country for the week, and wont have computer access so I wont be able to respond to what ever reply you think up. Enjoy!

Hmm, really? I feel an answer coming on... hmm that large genetically diverse communities, of life long vegetarians do just fine is just my belief? Ok, but my vegetarians live in reality! I don't need to prove it, they exist and they are not some lab cooked data. 16.3 million, in just one community. Many who have faced trials with their diets, and found vegetarian solutions... Just because there are some quacks out there who will tell an anemic person that eating meat is the only cure, doesn't mean they are right, just because you have 'clinical experience'... I was vegetarian for 9 years with some periods of more extreme dietary experiments. In the end I got sick, as I was a lazy vego. My doc said to eat meat, but instead I got some obsessed vego friends to help me change my vego diet to a better one. That fixed me right up. But I am to lazy to spend that much time preparing meals, so eventually I tried meat. Did the trick, and until I have streamlined my life more to be able to be a very healthy vego I will continue to eat meat occasionally. i am sorry but I do not believe that I have changed anything you have said. That is a nasty allegation, but if I have, please show me and I will apologize at once. I am passionate about honesty and specific details, hence when I argue, I like to try to address every point I see... Not that I am always successful. As for the case studies. I am not saying they are wrong. But I am challenging the conclusions that someone may draw from such studies... Vego's and anemia = Long history for certain dispositions and possibly blood types. I am not arguing there. But to conclude that: "Eating meat is the Only Only ONLY solution for this person, and they can Never never NEVER be a healthy vegetarian!!!" is plain wrong. That is all I have been challenging right from the start. Now I am also not addressing 'meat as medicine' which may be valuable for certain conditions, and possibly more speedily effective than other options, but I am not going to say that there are not Vego options as well. I stand by my statement, That everyone can be a Healthy Vegetarian. I don't at all believe that that means that everyone 'should' be a vegetarian. Lol, yes i have 'heard' of it. I have never seen a pasture with any of the vitality and wonder of Natures wild places, which were clear felled for your pasture Enjoy your day as well

Cool, but I should have been more clear that I was addressing your point a: This makes no sense to me as the grass [as you said] is thicker wilder and lusher outside a pasture, and even if eating it does make it grow faster, when the top is eaten by a cow, there is far less of the leaf to produce oxygen and absorb carbon dioxide. So therefore, a pasture does less for our global problems than a plain old field. It is not the growing speed that counts, it is the presence of ample leafage that does the world good.

Sorry but this is plain wrong. You have obviously never been on a farm [which i spent half my childhood on]. 1.) Cattle munches grass down to its roots, and leave pastures looking like they have had a Brazilian. Go any where, where grass grows and there is no cattle and you will see thick, wild and wooly grass, which you'll never see on a pasture. 2.) Grass does not produce nearly as much oxygen as trees, which were cleared to make room for pastures and the crops to feed the cattle. 3.) Cows pass something like 12 liters of methane gas a day. Seth.