Seth Ananda

Here are some Ideas I have been toying with. These musings are in part because I love the Interfaith movement, and believe that understanding the base stances of the different traditions can lead us towards understanding the nature, the strengths and weaknesses of each tradition. These musings are towards the Mystical aspects of traditions, not the exoteric seat warmers who have words and belief only. I am hoping to develop a 'Meta Paradigm' that is capable of respecting, including and understanding all the paradigms within it, giving practitioners of a particular tradition a door way to Interact with people of other, seemingly antagonistic or diametrically opposed traditions, in a healthy way. What do you all think? Now before I start, It should be fairly obvious that while some traditions may just have one kind of teaching, Others may have elements of two or even all three within its body of knowledge. Also I am not commenting on the conclusions different traditions reach about their experiences but on the actual experiences themselves which are 'Real' for the mystic. So here goes. Object, Subject, and Beyond. 'Object' Teachings: These are any teachings about 'actual' things or any internal or external phenomenal experience. Energetics, Intent and Magick, Most Shamanism, Most Theistic traditions. Any teaching that approaches the Divine as a 'Force' that can be felt or related with, followed, intuited. For Instance in Theistic Paths, one practices Intuiting the light and presence of God, and attempts to constantly be connected to that energetic presence. Through constant prayer and surrender ones nature becomes more and more transformed into what one is focusing on. The Theistic mystics are often Powerful healers who can tangibly channel the light and perform 'miracles' on a regular basis. Master Choi Cok Sui was a great recent example of this path. This Intense focus also brings around a Oneness experience that is Non Dual in nature and Extremely powerful [fire works wise] compared to the gentler Nondual states brought round by the 'Subject' teachings. Shamanism, also has a grand tradition of entering into a deeply connected, reciprocal relationship with the 'Felt' forces of Nature, and also a powerful Devotion to the creative spirit/Light, behind everything. I Find it Interesting that these paths often actively encourage 'grasping' as a successful sadhana for attaining the union they seek. Also, for people who view through the lense of the 'Object' teachings, divinity is nearly always seen/experienced as Interactive or communicative or Intelligent in some way. Any teachings about a Soul or Spirit as things that can be experienced also fit in here. These too are real experiences. Across many traditions, you find detailed sets of teaching on the soul, as a minute point of golden light/awareness that lives in the Heart center, in the right ventricle of our actual heart, and is the 'Root' of our being. Many years ago I had the privileged to spend 3 whole days as this point. This experience made it very hard for me to accept 'No self' initially, but It all fit together in the end. Astral projection, soul retrieval, and any similar phenomena obviously fit here as well. 'Subject' Teachings: Here we have a bunch of the Non Dual schools, and a bunch of meditation systems. These Traditions usually aim to Free the subjective element, Often labeled 'Awareness' from identification with all the 'Objects' or the content of experience. One spends hours and hours looking for Awareness, until one realizes that It can not be caught, experienced or observed in any way. The only real thing we can say about it is that it 'experiences' things. So Awareness often gets labeled 'the Self'. Some of these traditions go a bit further and look to see that even though awareness can not be pinned down, It also can not be separated from what it is experiencing. Where is the line? Where does awareness stop and the observed 'object' begin? This again leads to oneness experiences, or Nonduality of subject and object, Nonduality of Seer and seen. Thus everything becomes the Self or Awareness. This gives rise to a gentle but potent sense of Being and peace as the foundation of everything. An Interesting point to me, is that as these path's do not usually treat Divinity or awareness as an 'object' within space and time, they only usually experience Divinity as an Incredibly vast Beingness and presence, without any Interactive element. To me this suggests that the filters we view Divinity through, seriously Impact the way we experience mystical states. I think it is probably Impossible to prove that one View is more correct or more right than any other view. Traditions have spent thousands of years trying and still have not convinced each other. What is true, is that each of these varying experiences is real to the experiencer, and has profound life changing results, Not to mention the Inner psychological revolution that they bring about. 'Beyond' Teachings: Now we get to the 'Beyond' part. As far as I understand, Buddhism is the only tradition that has most of its emphasis here. Buddha objected outright to any teaching that makes a 'self' or 'Consciousness' into a permanent source or unchanging core to our experience of our selves or our world. To counter these 'false' teachings he gave the Teachings on Emptiness and dependent origination, and Anatta, or No self. Emptiness and Dependent Origination [E&DO] means that Nothing in phenomenal existence, or awareness itself, has an Inherent self existing nature. In other words it is 'empty' of any form of ultimate reality. Obviously things exist still but only in a relative manner. Things exist only as a result of countless other conditions that pooled together bring about our present conditions. The same goes for our 'self'. Buddha contended that there is no self, not in any ultimate fixed or eternally unchanging sense. Even awareness is seen as being tied within the cycle of suffering and is one of the aggregates. To counter Awareness teachings that claim Awareness is 'One' thing he pointed out that if one looks closely, one see's that there are 6 different awareness's. Visual, aural, touch, smell, taste, and mental {which includes emotions and psychic phenomena} To Buddha, if you said 'I am awareness' [even if it was true] That would cause a deep subtle area within your mind to grasp or cling to that as a concept. Grasping is never good In Buddhism. It is a subtle stress, and It causes us to start creating a false sense of self that needs to be protected and defended, and which then ties us back into the cycle of suffering. So in Buddhism one slowly gives up all claims of being anything, and relinquishes all belief in anything being anything other than relatively real. As all that attachment dissipates, One finds oneself absolutely Free and clear, no clinging, no grasping and the world holds Zero power over you any more. Its kind of like a neat side step out of everything, into freedom. Amazing. So the Buddhist Enlightenment is a realization about the nature of experience, and is not the Attainment of some 'existing' state, as is enlightenment in 'Object' and 'Subject' schools. Non duality in Buddhism it should be noted, is also not the Oneness of 'seer and seen' which gets called the Nonduality of extremes {the extremes being 'seer and seen'} but is actually better stated as a middle way {between the extremes of seer and seen} non duality where there is just arising experience. Zen Master Dogen put it along the lines of "Seeing, no seer. Thinking, no thinker..." Kabbalah has some 'Beyond' teachings and so do some Sufi sects, but I am not familiar enough to do them any justice here. :lol: So those are my three Divisions. They are obviously arbitrary, but does anyone find them useful? I actually think all these ways of viewing have merit, and have no particularly strong bias towards one over the others. I do also obviously Love the 'beyond' teachings, and have found that for myself they set a fantastic context for exploring 'Object' and 'subject' teachings. I have no problem for Instance entering deep communion with the universe in an Interactive manner [object style] through prayer and Intuitive focus, To allow the light to move through me, [this is deeply beneficial to me and my system] but I have no problem understanding that while spirit is always there it is also Dependently originated. In the past I would experience the 'Self' or Oneness, and that would be fantastic, but some part of me would cling to it. Eventually the state would pass, the bliss would subside, and I would be left in depression wanting it back. Now Thanks to 'Beyond' teachings I do not hang on to such states or bliss. They are free to come and go, without me having a need to make them 'mine' {or Me lol}. Seth Ananda.

Well, that is great, for you For some it does not seem sterile at all, and they are the people I am talking too. For me this is living reality. Right now I look and see that there is no self, but there is obviously still a person here. Relative and absolute are simply very useful ways to describe this fact, with language. Also, when I describe my experiences as in my first post I was describing from my lived experience, and from the responses it seems people did not find it sterile. But yes it does get dryer when we just start talking the philosophy of it. I do not know how to avoid this. Can you tell me? I say my actual moment to moment experiences, then someone says no thats not true, you dont experience that, and chucks back some twisted philosophical version as if that is what i said. I then seek to clarify my position. And my Language is if anything Nagajuna meets Buddhism, not that of RT. Rt stops at No self, and I think they confuse people like Informer, because they do not explain the differences between relative and absolute. Nagajuna points out the worlds lack of inherent existence [in an absolute manner] as well. Anyway I wish you the best on your Taoist path, and I think they can go similar places in different ways. Blessings!

Are perception or mind entirely inside your skull?

Relatively yes. why can't you get that? No hypocrisy whatsoever, just you needing to have my realization mean nothing because you yourself seem incapable of getting it Yes, great fruits. Re read my first post. To me these considerable benefits {which seem to be getting better and better} definitely constitute Fruits. That's why I am here telling others about it. It has been great for me. I wish to share and Inspire others who have the Inclination to walk this path. You can not 'talk' away what I have experienced just because you don't like it.

No, you are in your head. I am enjoying the obvious fruits of my realization. You are annoyed because you do not get it. [edit]Ok, if that was a simultaneous post I will not write you off so quickly.

Unless you are willing to try to get an understanding of what I mean by 'relative' and 'absolute' there is no point in me trying to converse with you. I have explained over and over to you 'how' I mean 'No self', and that the relative and absolute can not be separated. Therefore, while it is true [using Buddhist language] that I have no self in an 'absolute' sense, i am still a person with thoughts/feelings/memories/likes and dislikes/desires and afflictions in a relative sense. That person is sitting here typing out a reply. A bit later, I will relax more and enter into some Nondual goodness! Yum. If you do not try, I will assume that you are either not nearly as Intelligent as you would like to think, or that you are just a troll, cluttering up interesting threads with stupid questions like this one, and I will cease communication with you. Seth.

Ahh yes, the problem of Language. What you describe, I would refer too as No Mind, as the early zen readings i did, {if i understood them right} described it as a thoughtless state. I have experienced that many times and it is great, but i am talking about an ongoing realization into the nature of our experience as a person. If you can be bothered and are still Interested, reread my first post, understanding how I mean the term

Are you saying we dont pour out our heart and soul? The only real things you have contributed to this forum is cluttered threads with constantly changing arguments. And It's Ok to admire peoples ability to think straight. How is that discarding you? I think once again you are letting your emotions color your ability to be consistent.

Why did this end up in the pit? I do not see any insults? Or did I somehow miss them? The only thing I see is the obvious constant confusion of Informer, mixed with his belief in his own wisdom. Look at his track record with me. Negate, affirm, negate again, then read something about my mystical experiences and praise me saying 'that's why you didn't get stuck' [as in at rt], then back to negating again. In other words he has a head full of Ideas and does not know what to think or where to stand... No wisdom. But why the pit? There is not even a Mod note saying why.

Yes there is stuff that sounds as if it is talking about True Self but is not. Longchenpa for Instance says things like, 'rest in your essential Nature' which at face value could look like a True self teaching. But as you read a bit further he clearly describes this 'essential Nature' as being Empty and Dependently Originating...

no, Its a very valuable Insight. Even though the 'Content' is all still there, the 'Context' of a self holding it all together makes the 'Content' seem much more Important, Intense, Real and ready to go to war for. When that 'Context' of a self is seen to be false, everything gets easier with all the 'Content' stuff. Not only that but it also quickens your spiritual path a lot. Since dropping that 'Context' I have never had such ease of entry into Non Dual and other altered states...

Potential is a Very good reason to live. Often when we are down it can seem like there is no option's available, and that we are the worst/lowest specimen alive, that we cant deal with our past actions, our memories, that we have no qualifications, skills or options that are useful or wanted by anyone. That is the mind set of the pit. No matter how bad it is, if you look at others, you can find people who were in far worse situations, with far worse memories, and who had maybe done far worse things, and who also felt they had nothing to live for, no coping strategy's, no sense of meaning in their life. The fact is many of these people probably killed themselves, but also, there are many who have found ways through the hardest sets of life experience that a human can be given. Many who asked for help [as i take this thread] or somehow found a way to create a meaningful existence. Some have become great helpers of others. I personally feel there is something very special about the severely damaged. They have a potential to develop very deep compassion and wisdom, and to be of great benefit to society. I do think you could benefit from many of the suggestions already made here, meditation, self Inquiry, and definitely finding something to 'stand for' that gives you a sense of joy and meaning. But a good psychologist or counselor can be very useful while you do this. The trick is knowing what a therapist can offer. A therapist who uses cognitive behavioral therapy {CBT} will [hopefully] be very good at helping you develop strategy's for dealing with your mind and perceptions. Like How your family life causes you Hell, like how having to work with people make's you feel shit or hated. CBT can give you different ways to deal with whatever comes up. CBT is not so good at dealing with deep emotional Issues and Traumas. For that you need more process oriented sessions, Like Gestalt, Voice dialogue and trauma counseling. I obviously do not know what you personally need but I am sure you have an Idea. If you are burdened by past actions of yourself or others, you need someone who you can talk too safely, but with complete honesty. Starting to open your mouth starts to open the wounds. Out comes all the puss and noxious stuff, and then healing begins. Also, I do not know what your family situation is, but at a very last resort, if it came down to you or them, choose you. Leave. Even if you are the provider, this happens in many family's, and they will survive. what if you went somewhere completely different, sorted your shit out, then came back? It would be hard on all involved but possibly not as hard as having you kill your self {sorry to use guilt}. They might even hate you for a while, but you are alive still and can help, if that is a role needed from you. Anyway that's my piece. Blessings on your Journey. Seth.

I would disagree. What has been achieved is just simply clearly seeing what already is. That is not nothing. Also 'No self' is not a place of stillness, as all the content of the mind/emotions is still present. You just no longer mistakenly believe they rotate around or exist within a 'Self'. They are just Dependently arising phenomena.

I do not think he is discounting all other paths, and I think you are just pissed off that he is proving his point with facts like: Buddha himself rejected all other paths as falling into eternalism, and that shankacharaya spent half his life arguing against the Buddhists, for denying a true self. Thats the two main proponents of both sides agreeing that there is a difference. Pointing that out does not constitute You want them to be saying the same thing, because you have beliefs from the Hindu path, and If they say the same thing [about Ultimate reality] then you and your beliefs are safe. But... If they do not say the same thing, then 'danger!' It means you could be wrong about your path leading to the Ultimate...! That causes a sense of uncertainty that you are not fond of. I personally do not know as I have not reached Ultimate Wisdom, and I think it entirely possible that the Hindu's may be right, But it seems logical to me on my path, that even if there is a True Self as awareness, to Label it 'My self' would cause me to create attachments to it, on a deep mind level. I would rather let it be without fixating on it [at this point in my path] and For me there is a logic and beauty to E&DO teachings.

Booyah! lol

If she comes, count me in. I am also in Melbourne

Very Interesting, Thanks stig Can you tell me more about Te and more about stabilizing?

Yes!

My experience so far shows me that the Relative and Absolute levels are like little kids skipping hand in hand down the street together, singing a sweet song.

I think that is the danger for all Materialists. I think about it like this: Our relative sense of self comes about through all the content we have in our minds. Memories, beliefs and the way we experience and view the world. If all our memories, experiences, and thoughts and beliefs, are to do with material things, then the shock of entering a completely different state must be massive. Alzheimer city for sure, as there would be no context for dealing with the experience at all. People who start to step out of the materialist paradigm are in a better boat. Even something as simple as starting to accept and experience the/an energetic paradigm begins to give one a context/experiences/memories that are not solely to do with a straight up physical world. In my thinking that is already going to create less shock at the time of death. Not to mention the more 'far out' practices that can be engaged in.

lol

lol Absolutely, No. Relatively, Yes.

I think you are mistaken. First you are saying that you have seen it, then you are saying that there is nothing to get. It is impossible to drag others into not existing, because: a. The self they believe they are does not exist already, [absolute level] and b. of course we [and they over at RT as well] exist as we are sitting here conversing on the internet [relative level] I think you completely misinterpreted RT teachings. When they are jumping up and down screaming "There is no you!!!" they are talking absolute level. Now I am not trying to defend the site rT, because as I said I think there are Issues there, but I think some of your Issues come from you 'seeming' to believe that they mean that there is no you in any way at all ever. Which they do not mean. But please note they would use that exact sentence, over and over again, to help people get it on in an absolute manner. You Keep saying that there is nothing to get, or that it is an Illogical or meaningless realization, and I assure you that it is not. I can only talk from my experience, and for me [relative] Realizing 'No self' [absolute] Has been quite the transformation. You can give endless intellectual debates, as to why I didn't get it, why there is nothing to get, why it doesn't make sense, how you got it and saw through it already and it is really nothing, but at the end of the day, I got it, and the change has been profound. Trot, trot, toot toot! {rides around blowing my trumpet and waving my flag lol} I also got it in a way that can not be undone. Once it has been seen, and I mean really seen, you can not unsee it.