freeform

Although this may be true for 99% of teachers, it’s certainly not true for all

Well - maybe going through the process, with the milestones and ‘signs’ of progress clearly evident...

I think it’s counterproductive to equate the very specific alchemical terms with scientific understanding. It muddies the water and any understanding gleaned will be useless (and likely dangerous) for practice. I wonder - what is the benefit of dissecting these texts? Are you trying to find a map for practice? Or a map for understanding? Or are you already training in internal alchemy with a teacher who has gone through the process - and this is just the extra bit of study to understand the process intellectually?

Hey Drew, Jing is a very complex study. In my tradition there’s no focus on yin jing and yang jing. It may well be part of other traditions. Again I'd like to point out that training from books is at best ineffective and at worst, seriously damaging to your physical and psychological health. Not saying this for you Drew - just for others looking into how to get started in the Daoist arts.

Just to interject (in a hopefully useful way). I think it’s important to distinguish Nei Dan (Daoist Internal Alchemy) from what Drew (voidisyinyang) is doing. Drew has created his own system using ideas and techniques from many different areas. The results he gets are predicated on this system. It has very little to do with the classic Nei Dan methods (even though it heavily references works in the Nei Dan field of study). PS. The chakras have nothing to do with the Dan Tien. PPS. Imagination or visualisation has nothing to do with most of the classical Daoist internal arts. (Although it’s the backbone for almost all modern ‘reinterpretations’ of these arts.)

Nintendao answered in terms of qualities of yin and yang. Each of the Daoist arts will have different use of “Qi” and different use of “yin and yang”. Though the Qi Of Feng Shui, Medicine, Qi Gong, Nei Dan etc are different from one another, they’re not ambiguous. They have quite specific meanings and uses within their individual context. In the internal arts (neigong, qigong, alchemy) we work with Yin Qi and Yang Qi. These are specific ‘substances’ in a way. This is not an description of quality. No need to concern oneself with these if you don’t train in these arts though. Yin and yang jing - I’ve not come across that division in the internal arts, but I believe this comes from the medical aspect of the arts. Not needed in cultivation.

Better leave that to the Daoist practitioners...

Flow tends to be momentary... or lasting for a period of time. And it also tends to be ‘draining’. If you talk to people that regularly get into flow (free solo climbers for example) they will tell you that afterwards it takes time to recover - you feel low in energy and mood. Flow does have the level of absorption that wuwei has. But it’s not ‘effortless’. Flow is a state achieved by ‘addition’... in the sense that you may be very skilled at doing something, but only when you add in a key ingredient (which in the case of flow tends to be danger) do you pop into a state of pure flow. Wuwei is a state of ‘subtraction’... in the sense that step by step you let go of layers of the acquired mind and you reveal wuwei. It’s absorption but not focused, not intense and not draining. It’s (eventually) constant.

Yeah - fair question. It’s more a case of bringing it into the manifest world. Roshawn. I know we talked about spiritually developed arseholes - but when you do hit the stage of enlightenment and then immortality, your personality is completely transformed... or rather - just discarded. It’s just that very very few people get to that stage

No - not power. The opposite actually. Awakening. Enlightenment. Immortality (and beyond). In that order It would be speculation on my part to be honest. You might have opened your bai hui and the built up energy escaped through the top of the head. Yeah - the western scientific perspective is quite limited when it comes to these arts. The rabbit hole only gets deeper with these practices. And yes you’re right, there is ‘dual cultivation’ in Daoism. But it’s very different to how it’s taught by Chia and his offshoots. Of course you’re free to experiment as you wish (I certainly did!). I would just caution you on a couple of points - retention and forcing sexually charged energy upwards tends to cause real, serious damage if done regularly or intensively. Both psychological and physical damage. And not just a migraine

Yes! Exactly! The acquired mind doesn’t operate on the same level, so it’s always tainted with distortion and delusion. Even if you’ve been able to completely transform your acquired mind to the purity of a sage (fully developed virtues), it’s still fundamentally on a different level to Original Spirit... or to Dao.

Sure - it’s actually pretty simple. Spiritual development is literally development of the spirit. The spirit (Yuan Shen) is that aspect of you that’s primordial - some times called pre-heaven or congenital. It’s there before you’re born. It’s separate from your identity or your ‘self’. It’s separate from morality. Or from anything of this world. The reason that one can be a spiritual arsehole is because technically you can bypass self-development and go straight to spiritual development. But your ‘self’ stays very limited, reacts to life based on the baggage of its personality. So for example if you felt that you never got enough sexual attention, you may still (consciously or not) crave it and let your decisions be swayed by that ‘trauma’. And that’s why you often have spiritual gurus who abuse their power and sleep with all their students. They may have presence and a deep spiritual connection - but part of them is still just a teenager desperate for sex and power. Dwai says that Love is the fundamental nature of your being. From what I’ve learned from many highly realised teachers from several traditions... Is that Love is one aspect of the fundamental nature of the self. It is not on the level of Yuan Shen or Dao. But it is crucial in self development. This is very important. Because I did not say that Love has no place in Daoism, of course it does. It’s one of the virtues that comes about from the process of self transformation. But just as you can have deep spiritual realisation and still be an arsehole - you can also have highly developed virtues, but have no spiritual realisation. Probably better off than a spiritual arsehole though to be honest As to your other question. Sexual Qi Gong. The reason I didn’t reply to your post is because you won’t like my answer. I’ve discovered here that most people get very defensive when you question their assumptions. I suggest being curious to see from a different perspective and test your assumptions. The aim is to arrive at the truth rather than be right. And with that warning... Remember the archetypal sex craving guru? Well at some point these types took the Daoist arts and manipulated them to suit their purpose (to have lots of sex). Mantak Chia then also realised that sex sells. And it sells like crazy. So he cashed in on that. And so we have thousands of people reading his books and mistakenly believing that sex is at the centre of Daoist practice. That Jing is ‘sexual energy’. That you should press on your piping so that you ejaculate into your bladder. That you should send your sexually charged energy up to your heart and head etc. This is all just a misapplication of the real teachings. In fact a lot of Chia’s practices cause terrible problems (only if practiced diligently, mind you). From Poison Fire (a classical Qi deviation where the purity of the heart is tainted by the lower desires - manifesting in various degrees of sexual deviancy and obsession)... to physical damage to the piping of your urogenital system. I started my interest in Daoism many years ago after picking up one of Chia’s books. I’m just glad I had enough discernment at that young age to eventually see through it.

Actually that’s exactly what they were into. Although I use ‘they’ figuratively because in all likelihood these were texts written by several authors. When you’re initiated into a Daoist lineage, you discover that these texts are teaching specific aspects of the ‘process’ of Daoism. The outward packaging and language certainly change. But the core of the tradition remains the spiritual transformation process. It has survived out of view in the lineages of its practitioners passing this path down the generations. PS. Please understand that what I’m writing isn’t for you personally. Let’s face it, some random internet dude isn’t going to change the mind of someone deeply entrenched in his views. That’s not my aim anyway. This is more for the mostly silent majority who come here looking for what Taoism really is. So I've made my point, and see no more reason to add to this particular debate. It’s now up to them to decide

We need to move away from talking about what is ‘better’ or more ‘true’ - modern science or ancient wisdom. They're both perspectives we take on reality. Is poetry or art any more or less true than science? It’s a stupid question. I believe that coming to Daoism from a scientific perspective is losing the whole point. Just as only testing the chemical make-up of the pigments used on the Mona Lisa, misses the point. it needs to be investigated from a different perspective to get the real value. With Daoism, you need to use its own tools of investigation. It’s laboratory is your body and mind. As an alchemical tradition, it requires you to go through the process itself. That’s the point of Daoism. Yes it’s a long and difficult process... But trying to evaluate it at a distance, without having gone through the process, is like the chemist missing the image of Mona Lisa because she’s focused on the chemical make up of the piments. Wandelaar talked about ‘magical unknown phenomena’. ‘Dark matter’ - sounds like a magical unknown phenomenon to me... but if I take the time, dive in to the ‘scientific tradition’... build up my understanding in a sequential way... I’ll see that it’s not really magical. It only seemed magical because I didn’t understand. And so it is in Daoism. Except the sequential ‘understanding’ happens in the body and in the mind using the specific process of transformation that is Daoism. Then you realise that Qi is not some magical unknown energy. It’s actually not what you thought at all. Because once you actually develop it in yourself, you get the ‘truth’. It’s there in front of you. And it’s at that point that you might want to scientifically investigate something like Qi or the Dan Tien. Because you’ll have them to investigate. Anything before then is just conjecture based on a very limited perspective.

There are different levels of immortality. Yes the path is alchemical at its root.

Maybe. Depends on who sees it. If 12 jurors all see it, then it’s definitely a sign of something going on. Different traditions will have different signs at different stages of development.

Oh - so that’s what you think I believe? No, not quite. I think the benefits of science are that scientists do the due diligence of actually testing their hypothesise. When most people with a western mindset come to Daoism, they see it as a hypothesis - a philosophical explanation of existence. It’s true - there is that aspect to Daoism. But the true value, the root source of this philosophy is actually in the ‘due diligence’ bit. The ‘doing’ of the tradition. The act of ‘testing’ this hypothesis. That’s the tradition. The philosophy is one of the many ‘byproducts’. The Dao is the Way, because it’s the spiritual path you take - the transformation you make in yourself. That is how you begin to embody the philosophy - so that wuwei is a deeply felt experience, rather than just an idea. What I believe is not that modern understanding is better or worse than ancient wisdom. What I believe is that by staying in the confines of modern understanding when evaluating ancient wisdom, we completely miss the point and only see a small aspect of it.

I’m sorry, but I’ve been asked not to give details publicly. But there are examples in Damo’s book. It is very convenient! It’s not a mind trick because most of these signs are objective and often physical (can be seen and felt by anyone). My main teacher is in a specific branch of the Dragon Gate lineage. I’ve been part of other alchemical Daoist lineages too. There are differences in the process, but a lot of the milestones and developmental signs are the same.

Luckily, in Daoist training there’s no need to be vigilant - there are specific physiological milestones. (because let’s face it your mind is smart enough to run round vigilance). So when you think you might be manifesting one of the virtues (De), you can have your teacher check. She can test you and then you’ll know whether you just thought you’ve acquired Wisdom or you actually have the sign for it and it really has manifested in you on all levels.

I think the ego is especially sneaky when one is engaged in spiritual practices. Whether heart based or not. Different traditions deal with it differently. I don’t think Heart work is somehow devoid of delusion. I think it’s just as susceptible. Yup - it’s just a clearing process. I think in the case of the Hindu teacher, he specifically directed the process through the heart centre, so that the blockages manifest as laughter as they come out. They’re less ‘sticky’ that way. It would often manifest as the whole room laughing hysterically - not just one or two people. I don’t think it was too healthy over a long term.

I think for most lay-people it’s much easier to live in the modern world if they’re not too energetically sensitive. You probably understand the Daoist path well enough to know that ‘concentrating on the self/identity’ is not a practice that you’d actually want to do. With the Buddhist teacher it was in a silent retreat setting in the Burmese jungle. It involved about 8hrs of sitting practice per day, and some work around the monastery gardens. You could tell when the teacher was transmitting because you’d effortlessly slide into profound states of presence or compassion. With the Hindu teacher it was also in a retreat setting, but not silent. It involved a practice that i think is unique to Balinese Hinduism - not seated... some aspects of zifa gong. His transmission was less subtle and would often result in roaring spontaneous laughter.

She was perfectly fine really - was more just panicked. This was about 3 years ago I think. I doubt it would provoke the same reaction now - my energy is a lot more consolidated these days. I wasn't expecting it to happen - I could just see that it was a zifa gong type reaction - not a fit.

I appreciate the effort. I didn’t sense anything, but honestly it’s probably because I’m pretty ‘dense’ at the moment. You’d probably have better luck connecting to a lump of clay! I'm not unfamiliar with Heart level connection. A Buddhist teacher worked with it quite extensively with me some years back. He called it a Heart Essence transmission. Was very nice. I also had a Balinese Hindu teacher that worked on this level.

Does it seem strange that I should ask? I've had issues with it before - for example when a friend started doing ‘reiki stuff’ while giving me a simple shoulder massage. She accidentally absorbed some Yang Qi and started spazzing out on the floor, with everyone thinking she’s having an epileptic seizure. Took some delicate negotiation for the ambulance crew not to take her. And then some extra practice time for me to get rid of the pathogens she left in me! I stay away from reiki At the moment I’m going through a period of consolidation in the LDT. My Qi needs to remain as sunk as possible. If the experiment causes my Qi to raise then it won’t do me any good. My sensitivity to external Qi is low at the moment because I’m consolidating - so to be honest I probably wouldn’t experience much anyway.

I appreciate the offer, but that won’t work for me - I need to know what this experiment entails as I’m working through a specific process right now, and don’t want to compromise it.