freeform

Take for example the relatively new ‘discovery’ of the fascia. Only in in the last 10 or so years have modern people started to realise the importance of it. Yet there are systems of martial arts, medicine and spiritual cultivation that have used and talked about this structure for many hundreds of years.

The issue I have with these sorts of things - (taking a Daoist principle and trying to make it fit some other western perspective) - is that you lose the depth and subtlety of the original, and you muddy the western perspective too. I remember loving physics as a kid. We’d learn about atoms and how they’re put together... there’s the nucleus with all the electrons in an orbit around them... then a few years later you learn that this model is actually a vastly over-simplified model designed to give kids an approximation of what we actually understand. So then you learn that the electrons aren't really in an orbit... you learn that the protons and neutrons aren’t really little balls in the centre... You get a new, much more in-depth understanding. Then if you pursue it further you start bumping into quantum mechanics and suddenly that previous, more in-depth model needs to be thrown out too... Often what happens is that scientists, doctors, psychologists etc. pick up that ‘high school’ level understanding of Daoist concepts and then change it and add their own interpretations to fit whatever theoretical model they have. All you get is a woolly mess that sounds good (mainly coz it’s coming from a person with credentials) - but really does disservice to both the Daoist perspective and the original model they’re working with.

Yeah - what he’s saying contradicts what the majority of modern schools teach. The orbits open automatically as a result of building the body in the correct way. If you move the Qi with conscious intention, then you can create serious deviations as well as temporary results. He then talks about slowing the breath. But again it’s important to point out that the breath slows of its own accord as a result of correct training - this isn’t consciously controlled. Good video, thanks for posting.

I’m sure you’ll understand my skepticism. I’ve met dozens of people who think they interact with immortals. Sadly most of them couldn’t even sink in their kwa, let alone display any physical signs of development. Did they really interact with immortals? Maybe. Could they be imagining stuff? Maybe. Could they be having legitimate experiences of some sort that they unconsciously manipulate into some form that’s more pleasing for them? Maybe. One thing is for certain though - they have no signs of development along the path. Which means whatever experiences they’re having should be treated as completely irrelevant. This is another important guideline all genuine masters go to great lengths to stress. The reality is that the real benchmarks for development along the path are set far higher than people imagine. “Of course I have a Dan Tien - I’ve worked with it for years” - then you have a poke around in their abdomen and there’s nothing there - or worse still there’s only signs of stagnation... “of course you won’t feel anything - the Dan Tien is an energetic structure” Delusion is a constant threat. It happens to beginners, it happens to advanced practitioners. It happens to dedicated practitioners as well as ‘experience chasers’. That’s why a genuine lineage has recognisable, objective milestones. Teachers will check for them before they teach you further. Sure - if it doesn’t counteract what I’m doing at the moment.

From the perspective of authentic lineages, this just means that you’ve stepped off the path. Distinct physiological changes occur all the way through to the very highest levels of immortality. At the mid to later stages, ‘physiological’ becomes a bit of understatement - we’re talking changes that break the laws of physics. There aren’t many. Not genuine ones anyway. Besides, I was thinking particularly of your teacher, I’m guessing he’s in a Daoist lineage...

I liked your article. Sounds like you had some amazing experiences! I’m sure that along with these you’ve probably had some specific physiological changes too. I must say though - that I really am disappointed by the extent of all the tradition mash-up. Even if it aids your own understanding; by teaching it this way, you’re just passing on the unique mixture that’s ‘you’ (Dwaism!) - not real a real lineage. And eventually ‘you’ will die (probably ) But an authentic lineage could live on and be there for generations to come

Confusion about terms happens when you stray outside a system and begin to mix in frameworks from other traditions. This ‘club talk’ or jargon allows for intelligible conversation. But when you mix jargon from jewellery making with behavioural economics jargon you’re going to get one big woolly mess. And so it is when you bring Divine Love and God and Chakras into the Daoist internal arts. “Oh the Love I’m talking about is such a level of love that it’s the fundamental base of being... Because it’s based in my individual experience” - that sort of thing is a cop-out to me. Classical systems allow for a shared understanding - based not only in abstract concepts but in embodied experience that is shared amongst the practitioners within that lineage. I had a teacher who would mostly teach on the Shen level, transmitted through live calligraphy. All the students had to learn a whole new (rather weird) ‘vocabulary’. We would sit with the pieces and they would each have a different effect. Some would make the body vibrate violently, some would envelop you in deep stillness. Over time you learn the new ‘language’ as you absorb and plug into the particular lineage. Of course I recognise that just because one mixes together different systems doesn’t mean they’re delusional about their inner development. That’s not what I’m trying to say. When you take a system and start mixing theoretical frameworks, milestones, practices, subtle distinctions etc, the thread that weaves that lineage together begins to break. That’s how these precious arts slowly die out. That just saddens me. In these mash-up systems, you also lose the milestones that pop up along the way. As a result, you lose your orientation on the path. This is not ‘prove-it’ practices or too much ‘doing’. These are simply physiological changes that occur along the way... everything from specific changes in the connective tissues, specific changes in your head shape or even the exact taste and colour of the liquid that starts to drip from your upper palate. These all signify signposts of inner transformation - so you know exactly where you are. So at least I know I’m not just imagining things - because if there’s room for it, I know that I will! But when I get the signs, I can be pretty certain that for example my ren channel is open or that I’ve been in the right sort of absorption for long enough that I got the relevant physiological sign for that. When you lose your ability to orient yourself on the path, then delusion sets in. I’ve certainly seen it in myself before! When delusion creeps into a system, the authentic part of the tradition eventually dies out. And you get an empty system. Which is sadly the vast majority of what’s available! I get that I can come across a bit harsh, but I rather be direct when talking about something important. I honestly mean no disrespect. I think this sort of debate is useful whether we agree or not. We don’t always have to reach common ground, but we can certainly see things from different perspectives.

I see. Do you feel that seeing it from a psychotherapist’s point of view, you’d get a more familiar perspective?

I’m sorry but I don’t understand your question. Knowing single one of them? Yeah it’s an inference I drew from my reasonably broad experience. But more importantly from what a number of highly realised masters emphasised to me and other students. These are people that don’t waste time on words that aren't important. I’ve heard that one before. Commonly from Daoist practitioners who sadly have no physical signs of progress. Agreed - that’s why I stick to doubt rather than certainty.

Why are you interested in this?

A tradition isn’t a concept, a philosophical framework or a description of ‘what is’. A tradition is a roadmap, a path. It’s a sequence of steps, that when followed, allows one to move through a process that evenutally brings them to embody this ultimate state. I’ve trained with many teachers in many traditions (like you have, it seems). I’ve made many sacrifices and dedicated a good portion of my life and resources in tracking down and training with the very best teachers ( and ‘non-teachers’). I’ve experienced some completely unbelievable things and met with many highly realised people. But the sad truth is that the vast majority of ‘masters’ out there are completely deluded about their level of attainment. Ranging from the smooth talking charlatan to the guy that developed some siddhis but got completely derailed from the path. This is why the Daoist path really appeals to me. Every step down the path is reflected physically, objectively in the body. This stops you kidding yourself. And it stops others kidding you. The one recognisable pattern connecting many of the deluded ‘masters’ out there has been the gradual moving away from the path that brought them whatever gong they’ve managed to achieve and the appropriation of other traditions (or new inventions) into their teachings. Yes - several of the authentic, highly developed people I’ve met have trained in various different systems. But they always keep them completely separate - not only not mixing practices, but also not mixing theoretical frameworks that underpin the traditions. Kundalini, chakras and nadis simply have no place in Daoism (and neither does ‘divine love’!) A number of them have been quite explicit in warning to keep traditions pure - particularly if teaching others. Maybe you’re so far along the path that you can call these views naive and simplistic - maybe they really are completely beneath you... But judging by our interaction here, I somehow doubt it...

I don't disagree - I’m not at that stage. So I’ve no idea. But whether it is or not, still doesn’t mean that love is the fundamental ground of being. Yup - I agree. Of course not. Not sure what you’re getting at... I had a look at your personal practice section. Its interesting. Lots visual stuff going on for you. I would actually like to hear your opinion on why it’s a good idea to mix elements of different traditions. It’s a genuine question, I’d like to understand your perspective. There’s clearly a mix in your PPF.

Yeah - it gets complicated right? My view is that this problem was already solved by people smarter than me. Within a specific system you will have specific, objective, testable milestones. This is how one’s level of development is tested. It’s one of the strengths of Daoism, because for every shift in consciousness, there’s a shift in the Qi and every change in your Qi is reflected physiologically and is testable. This is why my teachers keep poking and prodding me What makes Daoism a living system, IMO, is that there are living teachers able to achieve milestones and demonstrate their level of development within a system. These are unambiguous. Daoists being a pragmatic lot are not shy about changing methods, training techniques that bring about these specific, unambiguous milestones in quicker/simpler/more accessible ways. I think it may also be worthwhile to clarify that I’m talking about the authentic inner-door practices. These practices, th when done incorrectly, can cause very serious issues - from health problems (cancers, heart attacks) to mental problems (psychosis, schizophrenia, mania etc) and even death. I’ve known fellow students experience some of these deviations! There are of course outer door variations of these systems for the public and the casual practitioner or for medical Qi Gong - but these are generally harmless. 99% of all ‘accessible’ systems fall into this group.

I agree that there’s a line. But how do you judge whether they’re staying true to Daoism? I have my answer, but curious about yours.

Ok - interesting! So - is there a point where you draw a line? I mean I’m pretty sure you’re not saying that every adaptation any teacher cares to make is legitimate because Daoist practice is not fixed...

My teachers always say to not overly fixate on food and controlling it. It is fuel. Treat it as that. Saying that I think it’s important to have food that is the least processed. Avoid packaged/branded products. Avoid sugar. Sugary drinks in particular (including fruit juice). Of course it’s not convenient to prepare every meal from scratch, but it’s doable. If you don’t eat meat, then you must build blood in other ways (huge amounts of leafy greens, beetroot, black beans etc. Look at blood nourishing foods and eat a lot of them) This is important for the internal arts. I do eat meat, I try to buy fully grass fed/pastured meat only. It’s expensive, so I just buy the odd cuts no one wants - cheeks, tails, necks, organs etc. Once you get good at cooking these cuts, they’re often far tastier than the fancy cuts. I eat lots of nuts - walnuts in particular. Bought in their shell (otherwise they go rancid). I try to eat a lot of mushrooms - both medicinal and culinary. I supplement with high quality fish oil and eat other healthy fats. When doing a retreat, food must be bland and basic - not something to excite the senses. Plain buckwheat, beans, greens. No seasoning.

Well here’s the crux of the argument. I think it is wrong. I’ve explained why. Why do you think that it’s perfectly fine to chop and change classical systems? I think it shows a lack of respect and humility, personally. I know that Damo agrees. Some of my other teachers agree too. Maybe it’s a lack of trust (in the process)? Maybe it’s a case of not having access to teachings leading past this stage? Maybe us modern humans are just smarter than the old masters? Maybe it just feels so good that we’re willing to distort the teachings to make it so? The De are the highest state of functioning in the self. These are the emotions transformed into a higher state of being. It’s one of the highest levels of self development. But it’s not the development of Dao. That is done by going past self development to spiritual development (developing the spirit - the yuan shen). In fact (sadly) spiritual development is independent from self development - which often results in spiritually-realised arseholes... (lots of power hungry, sex crazed gurus around) You asked whether people have experience in heart field cultivation. I have some, mainly in the Buddhist tradition. My Buddhist teacher thinks it’s one of the best ways of reaching all the way to the 6th Jhana, because it feels so good. Though he stressed that to go further through the Jhanas it has to be dropped and brought to stillness. I've also come across it in some form with one of my Daoist teachers. His system is very heavily transmission based, there’s very little in terms of explanation. But at one stage, during a long retreat at his home, we dropped away the outer layers of self and experienced this expansive, radiant sense of connection with everything. I think this might be what you’re talking about. He also emphasised that this is not the goal, but stillness is. Some students disregarded that and pursued it further (and I mentioned them previously). I understand now that as profound as it felt, it is still based in the self (albeit deeper self).

Thats slightly different

Yes exactly. But not only that. A good teacher will often also give a Shen based transmission that will over time help to align your quality of mind to what is required.

I think it’s important to point out the area of disagreement here. I disagree with the idea that in Daoism love is considered the fundamental nature of being. It is not. The Dao is. Of course Daoism talks of compassion and love. It’s one of the De, the virtues. But it’s not considered the fundamental underlying principle of the universe. And does it really make sense to say that just because the classics don’t explicitly say “love is not the fundamental nature of being” - that means that it could be... Bit of a straw man argument. The classics also fail to mention that eugenics is a bad idea... I’ve already pointed out that other systems certainly subscribe to this. But it is not a part of classical alchemical Daoism. It is certainly a view that’s often added to Daoist systems by modern practitioners. Have I read Damo’s book? Yes. I’ve trained with him too. He is one of the few modern teachers that is keeping authentic Daoist practice alive. Not watering it down and mixing in ideas from other systems. Does this all mean that other systems are bad? Or incorrect? Of course not. But I believe that one needs to treat all these traditions with respect and humility. Not chop and change things to fit our ideas.

Interesting that you mention the bible. I think a lot of the ‘divine love’ type concepts come from the Christian root. Then during the ‘new age’ appropriation period it all got mixed in with eastern traditions. Regarding Verse 13. This passage has nothing to do with divine love. The translation I have doesn’t use the word love. “Only those who care for their subjects like they care for themselves are fit to govern the people.” This passage is about Humility. Which is what most of the TTC is about. Verse 8 that Jeff quoted comes closer to ‘divine heart’, but on closer inspection, using an in my opinion a more accurate translation that piece reads: ”Build your foundations of dwelling upon a still heart.” Its an instruction. It’s about stilling your emotions. Not dwelling in divine love...

Thats a bit better - at least it raises discussion. Now, apart from the fact that this particular translation uses the words ‘love’ and ‘heart’, how do you understand these verses to mean that love is the greatest power in the universe and that love is the fundamental nature of your being?

It seems to me that what you’d actually love to hear is agreement with you. I'm afraid I disagree. I’ve gone to some lengths to explained why and gave you clear examples I’ve come across. The enlightened Daoist masters left classical texts. Nowhere does it say ‘love is the basic nature of our being’ or anything remotely like that. Or maybe you know of some that do? I think if you actually want a useful discussion, it’s now up to you to explain your position, give examples and reasons for your views which contradict both the book you’re quoting as well as the Daoist classics. If you’d rather just create an echo-chamber for your views, then I’m happy to leave this thread and let you enjoy that.

(For anyone scanning through the posts, as I do sometimes, this answer is relating to AugustGreig asking for advice on how to afford a teacher when on a low income) Daoists are a practical lot. If you can’t afford a teacher then you need to make more money. If you can’t make more money then you need to dedicate your time or be of extreme value to a teacher. To make more money you need to save more money. I know it can seem almost impossible when your income is barely feeding you, but set up a way where you can automatically save at least 10% of your pay check. For example I made a standing order so that when I get paid 10% automatically goes into my savings account. I don’t even see the money. I don’t think about it and I manage as best I can with what is left. Humans are pretty adaptable. If your pay was cut by 10%, you’d find a way. So just imagine your pay is cut by 10%. Eat rice and beans if you must. Don’t buy coffee or other drinks. You do what you have to. Secondly - find a side income. Go to a wealthy neighbourhood and offer people to walk their dogs, shovel their drives, trim their hedges etc etc. Find a way. Another way is to make yourself valuable to a teacher. Some teachers need help. Whether you go cook and clean for them, work on their land or find some other way to be of value, they’ll often appreciate your dedication and teach you for free. If it’s something you really want, then commit fully to achieving it and work around the walls stopping you. I’m sure you’ll do great. If if you want to train by yourself to be ready for a teacher, then learn to open your body - thorough stretching routines, opening the joints etc. Work particularly on shoulders and hips. There’s a lot of free content. Doing internal work without a teacher is not recommended. Good luck