freeform

HAHA! I'm not surprised you're distrustful of feeling, Spirit Ape! because your previous comment is indicative (and I've suspected this of you before, but never saw such compact, concentrated evidence) that what you call 'feeling' is actually 'thinking'... or more precisely you simulate 'feeling' with thought... which is like simulating the colour green with the word 'green'. This observation comes from studying the much under-appreciated branch of neuro-linguistic programming that deals with sensory data... to put it simply - if you're 'feeling' something, but can't feel exactly what it's like in your body and where the feeling is concentrated the most and how it's moving or changing - then you're thinking.

you feel you understand!!?! It makes me laugh so much when people say this...

No no no! of course it's a limited interpretation!!!! OMG - please never take anything I say as anything other than a 'limited interpretation'!!!... 'interpretation' in itself is an act of limitation! words are little parcels of limitation the word "green" limits every possible experience down to just one colour! But anyway... Yes sometimes the energy runs into my fascia, tendons, muscles... and my body starts moving in incredible ways - it's dynamic relationship / dance where the partners are my tendons/fascia/muscles and the divine... the divine leads the dance. Sometimes the dance partners are my belly and the divine - my body jerks, bounces, shakes with great force... sometimes my heart dances with the divine - my arms start moving, flowing, opening, closing, circling, spiraling... And of course you're right - the divine is always dancing with everything (it always gets all the girls ) but that's a limited interpretation too And a lot of the time - with both me and Mr Spirit Ape here and I'm sure with most of the people on earth - it's the ego leading the dance... (but it's ok - the divine is dancing with the ego too - it's like a multidimensional, holographic love triangle... or maybe love octahedron... )

you talking about me, Rain? I'm not sure what you mean by "the current in kunlun is DIVINE in opposition to enrgy from qigong that moves you spontaneously"... please could you explain what you mean? I'm talking about relationships... you can move spontaneously with your focus and intention being on 'the outside' - so you're engaging in a dynamic dance with the outside. In kunlun when I move spontaneously, I (usually) don't engage with the outside - in fact I could easily bump into things, lose my balance etc... my relationship is with a divine 'current'... not anything external, but internal and external... is your objection that I'm saying that other aspects of energy are not divine? of course they are... but with kunlun I go to the root.... it's like the difference between drinking a glass of water from the tap or going straight to the stream that feeds the reservoir, that then goes through processing, national water systems, then into your neighbourhood, then into your house then in through your tap... Like if you look at the I Ching - you could tap one of the 64 outer hexagrams or go down deeper into the source of them... the outer hexagrams are no less divine - they're just more refined, specialised, individuated. You can certainly start with one of them and then follow the path back to the source... or you can start with the source and allow the hexagrams to arise spontaneously. Anyhoo... carry on

Spectrum - I have a good idea of what you mean now - and a nice way of explaining what's happening. Your movements are a dance (dynamic relationship) between your body and your environment... your body and gravity, and the ground, and the air, and anything else that is in your environment. Our (as in Kunlun, and I suspect Ya Mu's Stillness Movement) is a dance between you and the current of God... you and the energy that surges through everything. It's a dance that can be raw, chaotic and 'dirty' - animalistic. It's the relationship between the human body and 'spiritual lightning'. This is where the crossed wires are - what you are expecting, is not what you'll see of kunlun... that youtube vid I posted - as funny as it is - it's often much more similar to that than to what you showed in your videos... (although spiraling, bio-mechanical, elegant movement can and does come up when the current engages the tendons, muscles and fascia, but this is never the focus)

padge, I have found books by Bradford Keeney very insightful. So far I enjoyed "Bushman Shaman" the most.

ok ok ok... here it is - my last Kunlun group practice: ohmhZVjaqQo

I don't tend think of yin and yang as 'absolutes'... They're relative - something can be more yang than something else that is more yin... I used 0 and 1 symbolically (it's never that simple)... and yes they do correspond with yin and yang (it wasn't an accident that the form of 0 & 1 symbolise our genitals ) The void is very yin (with a very yang core)... It seems like a void initially - the kind of void that is as frightening as death itself because it strips away any singularity or individuality... it's a profound black hole. That's how it seems at first... with a little experience you start to discover that it's not just nothingness - it's everything - not a void but the source of everything. That's the yang within the yin. In that way it's perfectly balanced in itself (it's everything and nothing dancing together). That's a perfect example of the yang cycle - moving from the 0 (the belly) up to 1 (the head). Think of it as a funnel or a pyramid - at the wide end it's actually infinitely wide, at the narrow end it's singular - like a single point. As an impulse moves up the funnel it is gradually squeezed, limited down into broad sensations, then emotions, then internal representations (auditory, visual, kinesthetic) ... it moves from a primal to more mental state... untill it becomes a communicable thought - words.... this is when it's whittled down, frozen into an unchanging singular object. This is how I am able to communicate with you and you are able to understand. Most people have very little access to this - their awareness is stuck at the narrowest end of the funnel. Now imagine that the heat of constant awareness being focused on the narrow end of the funnel starts to melt the plastic, the narrow end becomes deformed and shaped into a specific shape. So the only thing that can get in to the narrow end of the funnel has to be that specific shape. This is how people become predictable, dull, robotic, driven by the most shallow part of them and only allowing a certain 'shape' of perceptions, sensations and behaviour... So the Hermetic angle is to get more awareness further down the funnel. This can be achieved in many many ways... my way, at this time is 'dying'... the yin cycle. If you know about the microcosmic orbit, this might be a little clearer. Taoists don't see the whole thing as a funnel... they see it as a cycle... imagine the 0 still at the bottom and the 1 still at the top... The yang path it goes up the back/spine (in the body) - the yin goes down the front of the body. Taoists have a wonderful way of seeing cycles and movements rather than stationary 'things'. Taoists aren't willing to settle for just going up or just going down - the yang or yin path - they want to allow the cycle to flow freely - up then down, up then down - 01010101010101 so - I have to mention again that none of this is 'true' - it can be seen in many different ways... it's not necessarily and up and down turning, it could be seen as a spiral upwards and a spiral downwards etc... the 0 being in the belly's not really 'true' - for example in my practice the 0 is actually in the head (yin within yang) etc... these are all just mandalas drawn in sand, ready to be blown away by the wind... actual, physical experience is where it counts... I'll add more when I have some time... but let me know what comes up for you....

Thanks Cam. You show great respect to your teachers. I've never directly shown or taught K to anyone and am not planning on it.

Cam - I wouldn't 'teach' anything - even if I did film myself. I would've made sure not to show the K1 posture only the spontaneous movements that result. I don't see spontaneous movement/shaking as 'our art' - it's available to everyone and anyone - K1 is indeed an 'our art' and I respect that and keep the posture 'secret' (or tell people to check Max's book out). Regarding spontaneous shaking - this is the oldest, most natural practice on earth, and if I can watch African Bushmen moving spontaneously, I don't see anything wrong with showing others.

Heart! yes! Something I didn't touch on to keep things a little more simple And deci belle - yes the non-location of the middle dan tien (heart) - you're completely right on one level... I'll explain myself... Firstly - my views are not Taoist per se - I've just found it easy to pin my experience to the Taoist model, but I'm not very well studied in the area (and not that well experienced either! ) The heart centre, is indeed a mediator between the extremes of 0 and 1. It's in between complete limitedness of 1 and limitlessness of 0. and the way it mediates is through emotions! emotions carry far more information and energy than thoughts and are very much more 'distinct' than the primordial nothingness. When I say 'emotion' the mind makes a shallow representation of that - of course emotion is far broader than that... it's indeed the subconscious - all archetypal stories of humanity come from the heart. What I've discovered is that the heart is like a pool of all possible sensations, emotions, archetypal themes etc. It's all happening at the same time, all perfectly balanced - there is as much fear as courage - as much sorrow as joy - and all there all the time. In our life we tend to have 'reasons' for emotions happening... I'm happy because I won the lottery... in actual fact I've found that the mind shines it's narrow beam of light into the heart area and focuses only on the aspect of happiness (even though sadness and every other emotion is still there, but not 'activated' by the light of awareness). That's why it seems emotions happen as a result of external (or internal) events... Now - the non-locality that deci belle mentioned. In Taoism 0 = jing, 1 = shen and heart = chi. The heart is to do with chi, emotions have to do with chi - energy in motion. Chi is everywhere, it moves, it cycles - in a micro way (in your body meridians) and in a macro way - in seasons and planetary movements... NM - Really cool stuff regarding the Hermetic model having a correlation with my experience. I'll make sure to pick up some Bardon books - any recommendations!? You're right about the balance above and below - there 'kind of' is - there is yin within yang and yang within yin... That's why the ascending kundalini (which is thought of as yin) is so hot and fiery and expansive... and the descending kundalini is profound emptiness. The alchemy that seems to be happening for me (very very early stages) is the uniting of bliss and emptiness in the heart. I'm finding it hard to write today sometimes the words flow with no effort - today they don't.

Spectrum - I was thinking of filming myself... but it's harder than it seems... I'm having technical problems, but there is something else. When we do kunlun, it's a very raw, vulnerable state - you feel naked to the core... not something, I personally, feel comfortable sharing with the unscrupulous public. Another problem is that one doesn't know how the session will go... your spontaneous movement is very body-focused... this happens in K1 for me, but not always... when the energy enters the muscles, tendons and ligaments, I make interesting spirals of all kinds... but sometimes the energy works on a different level - so all you would see is trembling, or clumsy bouncing or jerking around - and all of these things can happen in one session... I'm not at a level where I can (or wish to) direct where and how the energy moves. It goes into emotions, your voice, wild movement, gentle movement, no movement etc etc... The reason you're not getting much of a response, I suspect, is because of all of these... it's very embarrassing opening yourself up and letting all your 'stuff' hang out and shake around ( ) - to me and to other kunluners your video is exemplary of serene control compared with what happens with us...

NW - I don't want to derail the topic and great discussion here (I've already done enough of that, innit) - so I'll start a new topic - or hijack a more relevant existing one EDIT - new 0s and 1s topic here

NW - I'm glad you don't quite 'get' what I'm on about. It means it's something new, and you're approaching it with curiosity, which makes me smile. Turning things on their head is an under-rated pastime! Something that doesn't make too much sense (your deeper, subliminal parts will understand) - is listening to the spaces. Cat mentioned how Dirk listens to spaces - I've learnt this from my teacher too... Invite your attention to concentrate on the spaces rather than the stuff... when you talk to people, when you read, when you listen to a spiritual teacher... it subtly changes your entire universe. "the Buddha teaches about letting the sound be without the listener. " - I love that EDIT NW - your avatar looks like an ornate western-spiritualist ipod!

'Spinal breathing' is definitely a bad idea. (involves moving energy guided by the breath up and down the spine, right?) just watching your breath naturally might be a good alternative. Check out 'unwinding the belly' - also good for breathing. Hatha yoga - I'm not sure about...

Thanks NW, I really enjoyed your perspective! I'm coming from a slightly different paradigm, which would be hard to explain. It's not any more 'true' than yours, but it's more applicable to my practice at the moment. The principle is that I cannot be any more nourished by anything. The taste of the juice is to be enjoyed and pissing it out is to be enjoyed - the nutrition was always already inside me, the juice was already inside me, and my little experience with it just opens my awareness to find that I was already nourished... It's hard for me to explain - it's a perspective born out of the yin cycle - so it subtly demonstrates the prejudices of that. You mention 'integrating'. From my experience the integration was already there before the thought came up and it re-integrates when the thought goes back down. None of this is 'true', but imagine in your belly a "0" and in your head a "1". 0 = infinite space and 1 = finite unit 0 contains all possible 1's but only ever all together - so no 1 is separate from another 1 within 0. In other words if you experience 0, you experience everything all at once but never anything specific - never anything other than everything. This is ultimate integration. All experience arises from 0 and moves up to 1 then back down to 0. You cant add or subtract from 0 as it's infinite - it contains everything and nothing all at once... but you can add and subtract with 1. As a society we have a fascination with the 1 and a deep-seated fear of 0. So when you say about 'gaining' some kind of benefit to the average western mind (whatever that is!) it's a case of adding more 1s. of course I know that's not what you mean. If I transform your perspective into my paradigm, then the Aha! moment creates an environment that facilitates the return to 0 ('integration')... anyway - thanks.

Quantum Psychology & Prometheus Rising by Robert Anton Wilson

The juice needs to be let go of too. There is nothing to 'get' out of it... nature doesn't get anything from cycling through the seasons. it just happens. If you try to keep the juice it ends up becoming another blockage. So Hagar - 3) let it cycle. Let the understanding arise and become a communicable thought, then let it die and dissolve into nothingness, emptiness. the meta-stuff you're talking about is the process of the thoughts dying... 'escaping the meta-stuff' actually involves going deeper and more meta... notice how if you go meta-meta-meta-meta thought the thought becomes less distinct, with more space, less communicable... untill eventually becoming meaningless emptiness... So go more meta and quicker not allowing your mind to get stuck with it... it's a very kinesthetic experience - like expanding space. You might be getting stuck because you allow too much time - because with time the meta-thought actually condenses into a 'normal' thought and you reverse the yin/death cycle before it's complete... One of my teachers speaks of 'stuff' and 'spaces' - every thought has a ratio of stuff to spaces... most people have way more stuff than space... the universe on a micro and macro level has huge amount of space peppered with a little stuff... The yang cycle of thought involves going from space to stuff and the yin cycle involves going from stuff to space... This gives another perspective as to why Max asks his students to describe their experience after a powerful opening... it's a way of bringing a little more stuff into all that space - to get the ratio balanced.

I remember how Taomeow picked up that Max in the kunlun seminars would ask his demonstration subjects after an obviously expansive, out of this world experience to describe it to everyone else. Taomeow, in her own wonderful style, concluded that this was a way of contracting, limiting that huge, expansive experience... a way of bringing the person back down to earth... I really like Cat's yin/yang explanation!! It's like the microcosmic orbit... a thought rises up the yang path, progressively contracting and becoming more and more limited until it can be expressed in words and thoughts and the proverbial light-bulb goes off in the head... then it must fall down the front, expanding, becoming more limitless, less defined as it goes down... passes the middle dan tien and is expressed as emotion and eventually gets all the way down, the thought becomes completely formless and the cycle starts again... In our society the yang path is emphasised and admired, but the downwards path is seen as evil, madness, stupidity etc... The yin path is difficult for most of us because it literally entails death... it's the microcosmic version of the real death - a taboo in our culture that worships life and youth..

Good stuff all-round! the hot and cold shower is good to do - take the time afterward to really pay attention to what's going on in your body. It's also good practice to extend your awareness in daily activities. If you're waiting for the bus notice how your feet feel, the pressure they're exerting on the ground, and the pressure the ground is exerting back on your feet... in general, whenever you have a moment (it only takes a split second) just notice where your weight is resting, notice the temperature on your skin, the texture of your clothes etc. If you have emotions or reactions, notice the feeling in your body - where is it most concentrated, does it move, how does it move - is it heavy/light, expansive /contracting, smooth/rough etc etc... Doing these little practices throughout the day may seem like nothing, but you'll find them very subtly changing your entire world by affecting your habitual patterns of awareness. Also it's best to stay away from applied breathing exercises for the time being. The best thing to do in the beginning is breath awareness meditation - which is basically just paying attention to what it's like to breathe and as soon as your mind wanders, get back to paying attention to your breathing. Very simple but very powerful. Let us know how you get on!

Nikola, It's great that you're having success with this practice. You may start feel anger come up after extended practice - let it come up and become aware how it feels in the body. There is nothing to do but to be aware of it, if it comes up. Regarding getting back into your body. Try not to over-extend yourself from the start or you won't keep to it. Find one exercise that makes you feel real good and stick to it. I highly recommend IntuFlow which will very quickly get you into your body and have you moving in new ways (this is important if you want to change habits). It's not very physically demanding but it will make you feel very good... when you really get into a routine with it and feel comfortable doing it daily, then add something else... pace yourself.

The answer I have at this moment is: 'good natured teasing'! You know how in a group of friends you light-heartedly tease each other - especially about stuff that you normally take very seriously... There is a specific kinesthetic experience when something I've been holding as all-important, true and clever is being teased - the moment I lose that self-conscious "but that story/truth is my baby" feeling is the moment that it becomes funny, I let go of all the sentimentality and feel freed from its grasp. This is one aspect... Also, I find it very useful to think of thoughts, ideas, stories, understanding as flowers... they start out as undifferentiated seeds... they grow, break through the ground and eventually bloom into a wonderful enjoyable spectacle... then they spread their own seeds, wither and die back into the formless... We as a society see the withering and dying part of the cycle as something to be avoided, so we construct mental illusions, beliefs and values to try and keep that flower permanent, and we effect the environment around us to uphold these illusions... all of this is in vain - because the flower always grows, then dies then another one grows... but we blindly stare at some kind of frozen illusion of its permanence. Yet another way of looking at it involves summoning the power of the trickster/jester/fool... similar to the 'teasing'... it involves turning what seems important on its head... making it completely absurd, but doing it with full awareness. Bradford Keeney suggests taking your most sacred book, open a random page and select the most meaningful phrase you see - then, take an electric drill and make a hole right through the middle of the entire book... next, sing the meaningful phrase through the hole, put the book under your bed before sleep... repeat the singing of the phrase through the hole every night before bedtime for 3 nights and wait for a dream or an unusual thought in the day...

i wonder where the idea that a sage is stoic and holds strict principles comes from... sounds like some kind of mythical father-figure... In my experience the most spiritually advanced people that I've met have been very child-like. Any of you who are lucky enough to have your own little sages running around can learn from them. One day carrots are their favourite, the next day they hate carrots... for us non-sages this is an impossible thing - you either like them or you dont! (but the sages know better, of course ) Mountains seem huge and permanent - but they're not, they're equivalent to waves moving in an ocean - growing, collapsing, flowing, contracting - they just move at a different pace than water... they seem permanent to us because we move at a different pace to them... Opinions and judgements serve a purpose. Why try to get rid of them? I hold opinions, but I place no value on my opinion's permanence. This is very different from what we've been taught and it can be hard to notice it happening...

So what if being a phony (using your definition) is your 'natural' way of being!?!? Do you try to stop 'being phony' - isn't this in itself being phony!?!? I think being any other way than the way you are right now is being phony. (notice there is never any other way of being than the way you are right now!) and (we're just having fun, right?) I'm certainly not talking about absolutes - and I understand exactly where you're coming from - I'm just playing the 'trickster' and turning it upside down - for your entertainment, for my entertainment and to allow both of us to take our thoughts less seriously! Discussion would be difficult about this - because face to face - most of the really productive part of the discussion would happen during the laughter! I wasn't insulting you by the way - it was more of a compliment... 'framing' is using context to change meaning... you 'framed' what I said as a possible insult - I framed it as a compliment - perfect demonstration of framing! When discussing these kinds of things (especially emotions) the mind constantly tricks us... It tricks us and produces certainty and seriousness... I'm trying to trick myself and others in a way that produces uncertainty and fun (And I'm very certain about this - and I intend to seriously do that! ) Playing the trickster is easy - whatever direction your mind looks in, turn in the opposite direction! Whenever you see good, take your time to see the bad in it.... When you see something horrific, notice the amazing in that... Don't let yourself crystallize and stagnate... I tend to go through cycles - have wonderfull 'Aha!' moments of erudite, logical understanding, but then I must turn that upside down, shake it up and lose it completely... and this creates flow and space and tons of energy... so I'm passing on the gift of the absurd... it's meant to be slightly disconcerting, uncomfortable and confusing... that's what I get from it, and I hope you do too!