freeform

I'm a bit reluctant, as I'm no authority on any of this! But as far as I can tell there are at least two levels to 5 element practices - physical and emotional. In my experience moving forms tend to arouse more emotion (e-motion!) - but that's not necessarily always the case - it depends on the intention really. Initially it's good to get a feel for the different energies - so the static 5 e standing is great for that; if it helps, doing the 5 sounds, paying attention to the relevant organ and imagining the corresponding colours can be added to get deeper into the feeling. Then the 5 e standing moving variation is good to do as it gets the energy cycling and moving through... I understand Max teaches a 5e shamanic moving form - I reckon this would get you deeper into the 5 emotions, but I've not tried it. 5 animal frolics is also fun to do! The practice I do in the morning as I wake up is the Inner Smile - the same as Winn and Chia teach, but I've made slight adjustments - it's a really fantastic practice, it includes the 5 element creative cycle within it. I think the sitting 5 e sounds could be a good practice in the evening before going to sleep... I think you can use any of the methods available to go deeply into each of the elements individually and then cycle through them to get that 5e wheel turning smoothly. hope this helps in some way... would love to hear from more experienced practitioners... 5E Tao comes to mind (hint)

Joe - was it you that has been getting into Bradford Keeney's work? If not I highly recommend it as an adjunct to Kunlun - mainly to get you out of your head and stop you from being so serious... Keeney mentions how the Bushman Shamans view everything in life as having two aspects - one constantly changing, morphing 'trickster' aspect and one unchanging aspect... The trickster aspect is like the ever moving, changing flow - if it isn't flowing, moving, changing - you get stuck and sickness arises... what Kunlun does initially is that it gets that wheel of change turning - any stuck bit gets moving, all suppressed, forgotten, unresolved, stagnant parts of you come up to the surface and you become aware of them as they transform in the light of the unchanging aspect of God... This happens both internally and externally - so you see all this controversy on here, and similarly this happens inside. There is a period of turmoil and doubt - and that's to be expected with anything that 'works' (can you really expect to grow and transform without actually changing?) You can't recognize the villain because the villain is no longer stuck in a fictional mental construct. A lot of people (I find) get into spirituality with absolutely no intention of actually growing/changing/transforming - so when they get into a practice that actually does that, they get scared and run off. It's a bad idea to start Kunlun if you're not prepared for this. The 5 elements are indeed a part of these changes - and practicing any kind of 5 element forms can make the ride smoother. I've been re-discovering the inner smiler recently! great practice! Oh - Coyote - sorry that I didn't address your questions... I don't know anything about the army thing... not sure what your question about man needing a woman is... And there are no rules or philosophy to follow - do what's in your Heart and not what's in books - there is no 'right' way to live - but if you live from your Heart and follow your deepest dreams, you'll be fine (or not )

Smile - do think it might be worth splitting the entire package into 16 parts? I'm saying this because the 16th person to put in the $$ will only get to see anything in 4 months or more... maybe there would be more takers that way... The down side of course is it might be a bit of a hassle keeping track of who has what and who's not received which part... either way - I'm in - would be happy to help out a fellow Tao Bum, and the material might be somewhat interesting... freeform: $103.20

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Completely agreed! I remembered why I didn't get into his stuff when you first recommended Mark years ago - I think I was a little overwhelmed and intimidated by the yogic language and references (which I didn't get at the time) on the website... I never even listened to a talk... Now I don't even need to listen to his words - in fact placing my awareness in the spaces between the words provides an opening for the transmission. I've checked out the possibility of joining the streamed sessions. The problem is that if it's at 7:30 pm pacific time (-8 GMT, right?) then it's 3:30 am my time - now if I wasn't working this would actually be perfect - there are no disruptions at that time of the night... but as it stands at the moment, I would be a very sleepy worker on friday... (I might decide just to go for it though )

What aspect of the position do you find dissicult? and what position do you want to move into instead? From my experience you can do K1 several times a day - just make sure you close down thoroughly each time.

I'm no teacher - I have not practiced as long as some on this board - this advice is only based on my personal experience. As you put your hands on your belly - invite the energy to settle down there - any adjustments that occur in your body to allow that to happen more smoothly and thoroughly are welcomed. Don't wait for 'things to happen' - rather just sit and be. It's also worth noting that you should really be closing down only when your body is completely ready - not when you think you're ready... not when the clock says so... not when the music stops... if your body leads the 'decision', then the closing down becomes far smoother, easier and more natural.

I think if anything real petrol-heads would actually benefit greatly from electric or hydrogen mainstream cars... like a fine wine a good car should be appreciated as something special - used on special occasions or enjoyed as a hobby not an everyday workhorse...

I remember it being said that morning practice is especially good for health.

I'm finding this thread fascinating. Thank you all for participating and sharing and creating a little bit of magic. Trunk - so I finally checked out Mark Griffin... Why on earth didn't you tell us about him a long time ago!!? ( joking of course! - I'm just slow to catch on) He certainly has some juice!! Just listening to his talk got me going. Funnily enough the first talk I checked out was his talk on awakening kundalini. So apart from shaking and vibrating like a madman I gathered that there are indeed two 'sources' to kundalini - the tail bone and the crown! The crown is a pool of emptiness and the tailbone is like pure potential. This really makes sense from my experience - Kunlun finally makes 'sense', the downwards flow makes sense - it all makes sense and nonsense Sometimes I think I live on the wrong continent - if I lived in the US, I would see Mark Griffin at "the whim of a hat" (in the immortal words of your ex-president )

Oh dear. How arrogant of us to hold an "us and them" view! What are you trying to prove? By doing this stuff we're no wiser and no better than the ones that don't. How do you expect people to be curious about you when you can't bring yourself to be curious about them? (and I don't mean just pretending). People are naturally defensive about their beliefs (hence this topic eh?) - if you honestly become deeply curious about the deepest aspects of a person (which is a million miles away from the aspects that hold beliefs) - not only will you nourish them, but they will nourish you! Allow a deep intimacy to develop and you'll be able to share much more than just beliefs... those too, but mostly something far deeper and more spiritual. (easier said than done - I know! ) Vortex - I suspect girls get turned off by this because you might be too serious about it - they might be detecting a slight feeling of guilt or 'shame' concerning this (that's where 'creepiness' comes from). It could be that you're sending out a "my guilty little secret" kind of vibe. And similarly if you place too much importance on whether they accept this spiritual part of you or not, you'll be giving off an unattractive vibe. (Ever experienced a salesperson who's really disparate to close a sale? get that uneasy, nauseous 'I don't trust this guy' feeling? - same thing.) Placing far too much importance on the whole thing. I tease my friends about their beliefs in science - their love of football etc. and I expect them to tease me about my beliefs. It's what keeps us grounded, what keeps us from getting stuck in thoughts and what keeps us light-hearted and entertained!

ronp - I recommend going to see Max -especially as he'll be coming to your part of the world. Good value for money too. Max will probably also be coming to France this year. At least go to the free lecture and see if it inspires you. Kunlun is pretty much the polar opposite of intellectual learning - it's very simple and direct. Hua Gong and Spring Forest also have a great reputation. KAP is very much worth checking out too.

You big tease! So does the downwards flowing kundalini also originate in the base of the spine? (or the crown?) I realise you're trying to keep the theorising to a minimum and experience to a maximum! It just makes me feel less lonely knowing that someone has had experience in what I'm just beginning to discover in myself. Thanks

That's very interesting! - would you mind telling us more about this? The downwards kundalini I've only heard of in Kunlun - where it's not really called kundalini. Are these mutually exclusive? - do you either go for one or the other? or do you use both? (or one then both when more advanced?) In KAP do you stimulate the upwards flow or the downwards one? sorry for all the questions - you just piqued my curiosity!

With all due respect to Yogananda, from my very limited understanding the 'merging with God' is not the ultimate. I'm no scholar but from what I understand once you've merged you can then become individuated again, but now as a microcosm of God. Like a drop of water returning to the ocean - then re-emerging as a drop containing the whole of the ocean. But this is all conjecture and has as much relevance to us as when 4 year olds saying what they want to become when they're older.

Are you thinking of any of your behaviour as 'wrong', 'inappropriate' or 'bad'? You know that toy that toddlers have? - the one where you have a box or small table with a triangular, a circular and a square hole cut into it - and you also have the same shape blocks - the idea is the kid has to match the shape with the hole and push the shape through. This is how we often relate to problems - we think that if only we fit the right shape into the right hole, then everything will be sorted out. In reality kids throw the blocks around, chew on them, squeeze them, sit on them slobber all over them etc. Kids are not so limited as adults - everything is perfect whether the blocks are matched up and pushed through the holes or are used a fun, colourful chewing gum. In our case the whole idea that there's something to be done, fixed, analysed, completed is a fallacy that we accept readily. So let's chew on your conundrum. Let's pretend there's nothing fundamentally wrong in any aspect of it - not the abuse, not alcoholism and not your attraction to certain girls. In fact lets pretend it's all in a state of utter perfection! (including the doubt that you might have over whether it's indeed perfect or not - that's perfect too). I found a theory that really resonated with me - it's based on the idea that everything is perfect as it is. The story is that we are all eternal spirits who waited in a long long line to get to experience what it's like to be limited, finite and human. Unfortunately by the time we receive a body and are born into the limited world of physicality we completely forget that we are actually infinite spirits looking for an opportunity to grow spiritually by experiencing limitation. So most of us walk around in a state of stupor going round and round the same patterns without learning the lessons hidden in there. Trying to fix our problems is most often counter-productive - usually it's an attempt to get away from the problem rather than find the little gift that is hidden within it. (and I'm not suggesting that you're trying to get away from the 'problem' - in fact it's commendable how ready you are to explore) I'm just suggesting a fundamentally different approach than most western psychological systems. One of the other ways we tend to get ourselves into a muddle is to start analysing the situation with the mind. The mind just doesn't have the bandwidth to see the whole picture. The heart, however, does have the bandwidth - it's like a mid-way point between your unlimited spirit and your hugely limited mind. The heart communicates through feelings, emotions and sensations - not words, ideas and thoughts. Keep your attention with the feelings and sensations - not your thoughts about them. If you open your heart enough, you will feel the inherent perfection in the situation... this has to be felt and experienced rather than thought about. If you get a chance have a look at "Radical Forgiveness" - and give it a chance - the first time I came across it, I dismissed the whole thing immediately after checking out their rather pink, fluffy, new-agey website. A year later I had several coincidences lead me to the work again and again. The whole thing is based on what I explained above.

Kunlun is a mainly downwards path. When I do K1 practice the energy and vibrations start in the stomach. It gets very hot - the energy is intense and feels like lightning... then my stomach muscles start pumping and the energy moves up to the heart - this is when I tend to perform strange, intricate movements and get into different positions - this is where the big Love you talk about resides. The overall path is a downwards flow - there is a practice that Max teaches that begins this flow - so even though in K1 the energy flows up from the belly to the heart, with the other practices added there is a general flow from the top of your head downwards... the downwards flow is cool and 'magnetic' - sometimes it meets with the hot energy in the heart and 'steaming' occurs. So energetically speaking the heart is a major focus. As a 'quick quick' path the 'problem' is that very quickly you will be challenged with whatever is not Love inside - and this is can be frightening, confusing, painful etc. The bliss comes from an open, vibrating, loving heart... if you're content with that, then that's fine, or you can go on further - the ultimate destination is said to be the Golden Dragon Body - similar to Rainbow Body... You've had some great advice - I just wanted to add that connecting to divine Love is definitely part of the Kunlun path - it's just not as easy as it sounds. If I was not doing Kunlun I would definitely be doing KAP!

I like putting certificates and awards up. And I mean silly ones! I have my '25m swimming proficiency' certificate that I got when I was like 12 hanging there... Also anytime someone in the office has a clear-out and throws anything funny away I pick it up and put it on my desk - for example I have someone's award for coming 2nd in a go-cart race gleaming away on my desk... I found a statue of a weasel in the office skip, now he sits proudly next to my screen! Also - maybe it's a British thing, but tea is great... I have a selection, and anytime I want to have some face-time with friends I invite them for tea...

I'm enjoying the depth of this discussion! qirin - I'm trying to be brief writing this, so excuse the 'short-hand' style. I like Scott's stuff - I do Intuflow regularly, it's really done a lot for me. I've also done extended periods of Flowfit - also good as a decent, varied and fun workout. I'm not into the Sonnon persona game - I've stopped reading his forum, blog and stuff. He is just trying to sell an effective system of 'health-first' exercise - I don't think he's trying to over-extend himself, going into spirituality or exploratory ground - he's settling for something much more 'lowest common denominator' - so the average person trying to find an effective way to exercise has something that is easy to learn and won't damage the body. You seem to be looking for something far more sophisticated - and you wont find it in Sonnon's camp! You also seem to be comfortable with the idea of your body being the teacher! Let your body lead! People have intelligent minds - a mind can learn and decode the calls of birds - but I rather listen to the bird than the scientist talking about it... Listen to your body, find teachers that teach you to explore and to trust and to get what you need from inside rather than outside. BTW - you might find Peter Ralston interesting - I've never met him or know much about his martial arts abilities (would like to hear opinions from the Bums!) - but I've read a couple of his books and he has a really good way of directing you to explore your own body. If you do Intuflow, try this - when doing any movement - rather than thinking 'I'm rotating my wrist' feel your entire body doing what it's doing while your wrist rotates... so don't limit the exercise to one area of the body - notice how in any of the movements your whole body is involved - don't limit your attention to one area! Your big toe is as involved in your wrist rotation as is your wrist...

Do you remember going to the beach as a child? My favourite thing to do was to look through the sand and the rocks and find those pieces of glass that have been warn smooth like a pebble. I used to let the sun shine through them and they looked like velvety jewels in the sun... Then I would throw the jewels, back into the water... And I like to do the same with thoughts and ideas. The fundamental question in the difference between the two is this notion of 'control'. Who is the one controlling? When I direct energy around my body the part of me directing is infinitely more limited than the deepest part of me - the part that is actually closest to the Tao. When I do my spontaneous kunlun practice I connect with the deepest parts of my body, my belly starts to vibrate, and out of that arise spontaneous movements - my legs start shaking, my spine starts rotating or snaking about, sometimes I get into strange postures, sometimes I laugh, make spirals and circles with my arms and wrists, sometimes I do movements that resemble classic qi gong movements... I never know what will happen... I surrender all 'my' control. When I direct energy around my body the part of me directing it and deciding how and where to direct it is infinitely more limited. And frankly, I don't trust it with handling such a sensitive instrument... It's like asking a 10 year old to restore a priceless broken vase.

It's not the content of the posts and what he says in them - I think everyone should be welcome to post whatever they want to, in a decent and respectful way. I think it may be a little more thoughtful to allow other people's posts to also have some 'airtime' on the first page... There are 12 topics by Mak Tin Si on the first page - most of them provoke no discussion... I think it would be more appropriate to have them condensed into a couple of topics and have them all live in the Contributed Articles Section, which would be an appropriate home for this information.

Bigger is not necessarily better! Mak Tin Si - Sean, the rather mysterious and godly person who set up and is looking after this forum is very open to having a community that shares and regulates itself - in a respectful way - not a forum ruled by tight, iron-clad rules. I think gossamer is approaching this in a relatively respectful way - in asking you to stop posting so many separate topics. For me it's pretty irritating - I'm only marginally interested in religious Taoism and when I come on the board seeing that 80% of the topics are by you, and with hardly any replies and the topics I am interested in are pushed several pages back. I do appreciate that you bring an interesting religious aspect to Taoism that few here are familiar with, and I don't want you to stop contributing, but perhaps look for a way to share more respectfully. I would suggest that you start combining your posts - not have one topic for each of the dozens of FUs you write about, but one topic covering as many of them as you want. Also we have a handy "Contributed Articles" section which would suit most of your posts as you don't seem to be asking questions or wanting to debate, but rather attempting to 'educate us'. If we don't notice a change in your posting habits I'll speak to Sean and see what the best solution would be...

Great question. Not that I have an answer for you! But lets see what comes of it if I try to explain what comes up for me. To be honest, I've only read a couple of posts of yours and I'm not clear on 'where you're coming from' in terms of control. After all - 'control' is just a word and what you mean by it could be very different. Apart from that I don't know what your path is... There are several ways to go. there is a fantastic post by 'five elements tao' that you could search for that describes two different paths - it can be thought of as 'downwards flow' or 'upwards flow'. My take on the two paths is that one could be thought of as the art of becoming a capacitor and the other can be thought of as the art of becoming a conductor. The capacitor is like a battery - accumulating/building/storing energy and then refining it further and further and further... a conductor's path is simpler - let go of everything that is not needed and become as conductive as possible to allow the energy to move through you as a constant current. The first one in my approximation seems similar to you're talking about - whereby the mind is used to direct awareness - whether through moving inside your body or concentrating on a 'correct' way of thinking... For me any sort of 'control' is contrary to becoming a conductor. I conduct light - the interesting thing about light is its speed (it's very fast! ) anything which is directed from the mind is infinitely slower than the light that's moving through me - so it comes up as a shadow or a sticky 'darkness' that impedes the flow. So instead I let the light lead. In all honesty I don't really know much about anything - I wouldn't like to comment on how suitable different paths are. From what I found - the capacitor-type arts are very difficult - you need to be very careful and precise in everything you do... by choosing the path of control, you now need to control everything - would be hard without a very experienced teacher and to be honest I reckon that at some stage there would need to be a complete surrender of all control. As a conductor it also gets very difficult - we all have a mind that has learnt from a very young age to control everything, to judge, to create stimulus-response patterns and it's very hard to let all that go and to trust this deeper force to work through you - I'm often filled with doubt, forgetting who I am, not knowing what to do - these and many other resistances start coming up from the mind trying to claw back any semblance of control. So... after all that - For me personally, for the path that I'm on, any form of control is contrary to what I'm trying to achieve. ( - "I'm trying to achieve" reeks of control!) Others with their different paths may require a form of control. I feel that especially at this time in history the 'downwards flow', conductor - type paths are slightly more suitable (this is just my current opinion) - many hundreds of years ago the capacitor type arts were more suitable - people had different minds - they were not as cluttered as us - much more space - much more of a connection with nature - the intellect was very different and required further 'development' (individuation)... now the intellect is over-developed and we've lost all our connection to our bodies and nature - I'm now sitting in an office which mirrors the inside of someone's mind - if I go to the park near-by I'll see something that mirrors the big Mind... I think this is the reason that all of a sudden these rather rare downwards flowing/spontaneous/conductor - type systems are coming up into the mainstream. Check out Bradford Keeney for example.