freeform

I have absolutely no problem with you advertising or not… explaining your method or not… describing what one gets for their money or not… and I’m glad you have students I wasn’t calling you a troll either - I was saying it’s a troll move to share vociferous views on the commerce of teaching while being part of it as much as anyone else… (without getting into the nitty gritty of comparative marketing tactics (stuff I don’t really care about)). I have absolutely no problem with any of it… just find it funny You're not manipulative, you don’t talk yourself up too much, you don’t get into many petty arguments, you don’t seem to promote methods that could endanger anyone, you don’t teacher bash specifically - (all of that seems to be the general marketing tactics of people selling immortality these days) - and I respect all that about you. So please don’t mistake my words as an attack - I appreciate your perspective and insights here! But I’ll also readily tease and poke holes - just as you do yourself You appear to be witty and mature enough to take it and respond - without taking offence, I think.

So you were ridiculing people for thinking of buying Nathan Brine’s course (claiming that since he doesn’t explain the results of his training (which he does, in his book), then they’re fools for handing money over)… Yet here you are dangling carrots of ‘insider knowledge’ that people have to pay for to even evaluate your approach? Thats a pretty troll move TT! Impressive!

Hang on a sec. Are you joking TT? Or do you really have students? Can never tell with you

You were close… it’s using the awareness in such a way that allows the Shen to be perceived. Ok - so I’ll need to explain it in such a way that doesn’t go into certain details… and it’s quite an involved thing - and too much to unpack in a post (or even many posts). As always with Daoist theory just a couple of throwaway words are pointing something quite profound and intricate. Turning the light around isn’t the same as looking inwardly… your sensory faculties carry with it your sense of self… So your perception will always be ‘self-shaped’… whether you look out at a candle flame, or you sense your third eye or your Dantien internally - this act of perception is born of and therefore will always carry with it your sense of self. Turning the light around is turning your awareness in on itself. It’s not just a change in direction of focus. It’s awareness becoming aware of awareness itself. There are methods for developing the capability to achieve this - it’s not something you can just do. When done correctly, your sense of self disappears and becomes light… This is sometimes called the light of Shen. There’s something that happens when one can regularly rest in this light that would be considered the deeper aspect of turning the light around. It’s one of the major aspects of Shen Gong.

Good question I’ll need to check how much I can say before responding.

And about great art and how it relates to spirituality. Great art (music/sculpture/dance) can move you deeply… it can move you to such an extent that you forget yourself… now that’s a pretty good thing for spiritual practice… But You don’t forget yourself as a result of touching spirit… what you actually forget is the outer veneer of yourself… the part of self that is conscious or slightly subconscious. Great art can move you deep into parts of you that are normally unconscious… even what some call ‘collective unconscious’. This is a deep and profound experience… and in a way, yes - it’s closer to spirit. Actually a lot human activities that get you absorbed have this power… films, books, martial arts practice… any sort of Gong - from butchery to mountain climbing… they all have this power to release the self for just a little while - which in that space of time removes one extra vail the conceals your original spirit. But being closer to something that exists on a very different plane of existence is still worlds apart… Its like how really cold water is closer to ice than really hot water is… but ice is fundamentally and completely different to cold water… Theres a gate that you cross that creates a radical transformation - like the transformation of water into ice… the same substance - but a radical transformation. Using the senses in this outward way (outward doesn’t mean out into the world… looking inwardly is still considered ‘outward’… (the big misconception of ‘turning the light around’ is based in this!)) - using the sense outwardly will not allow you to pass through the gateway.

He’s the one that talks about the culture of sexual abuse among high level tantric Lamas, right? I mean there’s a clue right there… But yes… It’s possible to use sex as a method… actually it’s possible to use all manner of stuff as a method - corpses and entrails is a big one… The aim of this sort of thing isn’t to increase pleasure (or disgust) - but to rise above the attachment and aversion that pleasure (or discomfort) can create. The vast majority don’t rise above it… any hint of attachment or aversion - and they’ll get pulled into the pursuit of satisfying base desires. Some are pulled into this pursuit, but have so much self control that they manage to control themselves… so they don’t become a monster. I knew this guy I used to work with. I really liked him - very interesting dude. One day he stopped coming in to work - so I went to his home to try and see if he got fired or something. At his flat was his daughter - turns out he died of an overdose. He’d been a fully functional heroin addict for over 20 years. Hardly anyone knew. Not even his daughter… Then there are the others who really do succeed with sexual tantra - that are able to be in a state of complete equanimity… so whether presented with sex or with feces, they’ll partake either way - with no attachment or aversion. (and yes - eating shit is also a ‘spiritual practice’… I wonder why it hasn’t blown up like the sexual variety! ) If there’s even a slight subconscious tinge of ‘now that sounds good’ at the thought of sexual practice, then you don’t have the equanimity for it. If you feel a preference for sex with someone attractive over taking a big ol bite into a gnarly poop… then you’re not able to use sex as a spiritual practice.

Some conversations I love being involved in. Some conversations I really dislike being involved in - but they’re important, so I continue. (The recent sexual qigong thread being an example of that). Some conversations I dislike and are unimportant - so I remove myself from them

Sigh… And there I was feeling pleased that there’s someone else into Neidan in the forum. But now I’m left disappointed yet again

Pretty big leap to call someone a fraud @MetaDao You certainly changed your tune from what you said on the thread about Damo’s interview. Or was the respectful attitude just a veneer? Most of what you say contradicts basic facts. For example Damo gives away a ton of material for free on YouTube… more than any other teacher I’ve seen. And it’s stuff that’s of use to most people, including casual practitioners. I also know of members on this forum that come from third world countries that have studied with him for free or at a much discounted rate. I’ve never seen either him or Nathan be referred to as ‘master’. I’ve never seen either of them saying that they’ll teach you how to get the elixir. Very disheartening to see someone that claims to be a cultivator to bash teachers that are clearly skilled in their respective arts. I wonder what your own teacher might think of your conduct?

There was an article I read about a concert… No ordinary concert. Because the attendees were not told who the composer was. At the end of the concert they were asked about the music. They reported how the music was so poignant, so filled with meaning… so much substance and truth… people were literally in tears listening and even talking about it. Then it was revealed that the composer was an AI. No human involvement. Just a computer and a bunch of zeroes and ones. No meaning. No depth. No truth. Of course there was a bunch of controversy. People were outraged. Demanded to have their interviews removed from the record… many started saying stuff like ‘oh I knew all along it was a computer - it was so dry and sterile’… We are the ones that give things meaning. We assign beauty to things… feet binding was the epitome of beauty and elegance at one point… there is nothing of innate value to sensory experience. It’s not to be denied or attached to… it just is. There is something constant and unchanging beneath our stimulus-response mind. It exists on a layer of reality that’s rarely experienced. You can’t get to it through the senses because the senses (even when inwardly focused) don’t exist on this plane of reality… if you experience it through the senses… through an individual thing that’s capable of experience - then that’s not it.

It’s also something I try to avoid discussing But it’s being dragged out of me. People have their favourite things… and when they’re told that actually, your favourite things are exactly the things that are holding you back from spiritual cultivation - well then that’s a pretty devastating thing to hear… Its like being asked to sacrifice your child for a chance to touch God. I tend to say that spiritual cultivation is not all it’s cracked up to be! It’s not what you think it is. It doesn’t make things better - not at all. Spiritual cultivation is not for the vast majority of people… even for me, someone that’s dedicated my peak years and all my money to this stuff - every so often I have this doubt - do I really wanna keep going? Love of life and pleasure Love of family, friends and people Love of custom and culture Love of emotion and feelings Love of a sense of individual self All these things must burn up along the way. Yes they will be replaced by something far greater - but only if you’re willing to let go… and even then, there’s no guarantees - it’ll only happen if you’re lucky.

No - that wouldn’t be very Daoist now would it There’s several layers to both the Hun and the Po… If one or the other is out of balance it creates issues. The Hun on a base level has all these plans and tries to dream up all these things it wants to do… that motivation in your career… that dream to go sailing in the Caribbean one day etc - that’s the Hun. The Po on a base level is about attachment and holding on. Attachment to identity - personal ‘style’ or fashion sense is a very Po thing… political beliefs is very Po… attachment to family and loved ones and home and sports team etc etc. But there’s a deeper level to both the Po and the Hun - which only comes as a result of balance and harmony between the two (and the rest of elemental aspects). On a deeper level the Po is what keeps you incarnate in our physical world. It’s what allows our soul to grow and transform. The Hun is what keeps an essential aspect of you intact in between lifetimes… one is the earthly aspect of Soul and the other is the heavenly aspect of Soul… When out of balance, the Soul is completely will not shine through. An extreme example of lack of soul is addiction - as you mention… that ‘dead behind the eyes’ look is the complete absence of soul. But in Daoism what’s considered addiction is actually pretty subtle… any habitual identification is an addiction… preference for comfort over discomfort is considered an addiction for example. Preference for being alive over dead is an addiction… preference for being one thing rather than everything is an addiction. Obviously there’s a sliding scale to addiction. And the denser and more base it is, the more it strangles out the soul. I’m sorry but I disagree. The human heart has a great deal of depth… art, beauty and sensory pleasure… something like the smell of your baby… or an amazing performance… a comforting hug- it all can indeed touch you very deeply. But that’s not Soul and not Spirit… These things exist on a completely different layer of ‘You’. I know we have a colloquial understanding of soul (like an authentic musical expression is said to have soul)… but this just a much deeper layer of mind/emotion than normal - it’s great - but it’s not soul in the sense that it’s not your Original Self… The original self does not react to beauty or ugliness - it radiates acceptance whatever the circumstances - it’s not moved by music because it’s always ‘moved’ by everything. It’s a really different sort of experience to the normal or even the very special experiences we have in life.

There’s a reason why all religions have rules around sex and sexual conduct… Of course they are flawed in many ways - and completely detached from the true original purpose… but all spiritual systems at some point in time knew that sex and hedonism has a way of leading us away from God. Pride, greed, lust, envy, gluttony, wrath, and sloth… these are the seven deadly sins in Christianity, right? They’re also very much related to the base desires of Daoism… it’s not an accident Lust, greed, gluttony and sloth - all related to hedonic impulse… pleasure… comfort… consumption… Pride, envy, wrath and greed (again) related to the status-seeking impulse… power… control… dominance… Nowadays, most religions are simply mimicry of the original spiritual practice, of course I don’t agree with their methods of control! I don’t think anyone should be forced into spirituality anyway! But it’s not that people in the past were just prudes and now us modern, smart and enlightened ones suddenly have a far better understanding of the situation. They made these distinctions originally as an aid to spiritual growth… only later it devolved into a tool for control and judgement. And nowadays - in the upside down times - these 7 sins are the bedrock of our culture… look at Instagram and every one of these sins is fully embraced, glamourised and promoted… To most normal people it’s weird, foreign and old-fashioned to consider sex and pleasure-seeking as not desirable… as not central to leading a good life… and so everyone always argues with me about it… upside down times breed upside down notions

As a naturally creative person who loves life and beauty, I was always into sensory stimulation. Delicious foods, nice clothes, great design, nicely made tools and products… I was into sex, soft drugs, music, amazing experiences, beautiful nature, beautiful people… all this sort of sensory exploration. When I got into internal training I was told that this is harmful - but how could indulging in beauty and pleasure be harmful when it feels so good and so satisfying!? So I carried on - I stopped taking drugs and stuff like that - but pleasure and hedonism was definitely central to my way of living still. And with extra qi from practice, I noticed that I could affect sexual partners to a great degree. By doing stuff like focusing my awareness and using my intent, I could set off orgasms even with non-sexual touch… I could set off spontaneous movements and Yang qi mobilisation in my partners… And of course this fed both my hunger for sensual delights as well as my ego (look at me and my prowess!). I noticed a change in my partner at the time… not a positive one - I assumed it was just old wounds clearing through… that the emotional instability, wild moods, obsessive behaviours were all just signs of ‘clearing’ and progress. (It wasn’t). Luckily (for my partner) at this point I had found a very good teacher who required that I go for a lengthy retreat… so our relationship came to an end. This retreat involved hardship… not much was pleasurable… the food was bland (no salt, spices, fats) - and we were always a little bit hungry even after eating… the bed was a plank… it was cold and wet at times and stiflingly hot at other times… the training was brutal… we’d be purposely made to train in extreme environments… we’d sit in smelly noisy environments for hours… or train under a sheet metal roof that was painted black to make the space beneath extremely hot. Crocodile crawls in the mud… sleeping amongst spiders, roaches and mice… only cold showers etc etc There were no breaks… no media… cooking was a chore, getting water was a chore, keeping yourself and your clothes clean and mended was a chore… the toilet was nasty etc etc. I thought this was all done either to toughen us up or coz the teacher was cheap (or a bit of both). I wanted to quit all the time - particularly when I had injuries and was still made to train… But I didn’t quit - and what happened was that after almost a year of this torture, something inside started to change. Brief glimpses at first - but eventually it became constant. A profound sense of well-being and satisfaction - despite the hardships and the constant pain of training and all the injuries and discomfort. Everything felt easy and beautiful and satisfactory not because it conformed to my preference but just because it was. I was always scared of injury… but this change meant that I no longer cared… even if I lost my leg - it would just another step on the path. (Or rather another hop on the path 😅) My training also started to transform. I was no longer dreading the discomfort. The discomfort never stopped - I just stopped fixating on it. I just felt a deep acceptance of everything that happened or didn’t happen. The seemingly impossible methods started to actually work for me. I began to be able to access various inner states that I thought people were just imagining or talking up. I began to generate qi to a level I thought impossible… and none of this impacted on my ego - coz I didn’t really care about having it or not having it - I would just accept what comes. This state would vary over the next 10yrs or so - sometimes very much at the forefront - other times it would recede. But these days it’s close to permanent except for once in a while when I’m moved off-centre. Its only with my current teacher that I learned the mechanism that sits beneath this transformation - and it’s what I explained above about the Hun and Po. How does this relate to sex? For me it’s no longer about giving or receiving pleasure… it’s become more like a natural, physical expression of a much deeper connection. This connection is far more profound and blissful in a way that goes beyond the self - and I’ve had my fair share of pleasurable experiences to compare this with. Completely different. What happens physically actually matters very little. So yes - any internal practice that’s designed to heighten sensory or hedonistic pleasure moves in exactly the opposite trajectory to the transformation above… even if it’s well-meaning and wholesome it’s trajectory is destined to lead to attachment and deeper entanglement with the base aspect of self - instead of freedom and a movement towards the higher aspects of self. And I’ve seen this happening in pretty much every school or system that focuses on hedonistic and sensual pleasure. Time after time. Anything that’s based around pleasure invariably tries to fill a deep inner dissatisfaction. I’m not saying this is wrong. Following this path of beauty (particularly when it’s less sex-focused) creates a cornucopia of culture and art and music and beauty and exquisite smells and tastes and so on… But it’s not a path of cultivation. We’ll justify anything to have our cake and eat it too. Just as a drug addict justifies their pleasure seeking behaviour. That’s why people equate sexual pleasure with cultivation…

Oh it’s not that hard - @Taoist Texts will tell you which specific texts impregnated him (just a gentle tease - TT can take it, I’m sure!)

What he’s describing isn’t ting. For me personally - no, I couldn’t focus in on the point of contact because that could strongly interfere with my partner’s Qi flow and cause issues. Being fully present and aware on all levels, anchored and with a loving connection is the attitude. When there’s a deep connection, the bliss comes not from sensory experience but from a connection on a whole different level. Yes this advice is certainly better than trying to squeeze semen up your spine into your head (I’d be surprised if that wasn’t part of the teachers repertoire). But as ‘sexual qigong’, does it build qi or benefit the energy body? I mean it’s certainly better than the average porn-infused sex many people are having… But if you’re not moving closer to spirit, you’re moving in the other direction. If you really ting - at a deeper level - not on the sensory or body level then uniting with your partner can happen on a ‘soul level’… What builds is not sensual pleasure but blissful love. Probably not what you want as a sex guru with lots of partners though!

I’m actually rather easily impressed to be honest. Show me something much earlier on the alchemical path - like the results of opening the true waterwheel! Or for qigong practitioners - just show that you have a developed a kwa and can sink your qi! I’m impressed by this stuff because even though it’s one of the early foundational attainments, very few are able to achieve these things! When I see a qigong teacher that has a kwa it’s genuinely a delight to see.

Things get pretty wild in the latter stages of alchemical transformation!

Hehe - the answer is only suitable for an in-person conversation, I’m afraid.

Maybe. I’m doing what must be like a Halloween horror movie for you - trusting my teacher without reservation. Even if he is wrong, I’m more than happy to progress along the wrong path if it leads me to becoming anything close to who my teacher has become. I’ve come across dozens of ‘grand masters’ claiming to have the embryo. The only two I believe to be legit can just show me… the rest had to explain

I hope it doesn’t come across as a standoff! Im genuinely interested in what TT has to say. I don’t care who’s correct or not correct or any such games

Oh I definitely haven’t experienced it myself! I was not really given any details about it. I’m generally taught only what’s within 3 or so years ahead of me in any great detail… Oh I think you misunderstand my reason for asking

Well congrats on your bouncing baby boy! How is it different to what I heard it is? Or is it not for public discussion?