freeform

A goat is pretty authentic - is it capable of ignorance? (I realise the initial over-anthropomorphism involved in my original question lol) If the goat is capable of ignorance, does that make the animal kingdom ignorant? I dont necessarily disagree - but maybe the value of ignorance is underplayed? Or maybe the the value of whatever the goat is ignorant of is over-inflated?

yes. and you say that feelings come and they go and it's a perpetual process. I agree. This is life on earth. The sun and moon perpetualy circulate. But I get the idea from you that the higher aim is to surpass this - there is no you, no sun, no moon, no earth no movement or process - there is just this one, bright, endless void. But here I am, using words, typing on a computer. I got angry today in the queue at the post office. Not indulgently angry. Just a feeling that comes and goes. Maybe a year ago, I was quite blind to this anger - the state of anger was 'normal' and hidden from people. I had a Buddhist friend who was similar in that way - he was angry, didn't know it, and had a good reason not to - it's all just illusion anyway - he was looking up, but never down - down is dual, therefore illusion. Nevertheless I have had very brief moments in my life of this dissolusion of duality - the experiencing of no 'me' and no 'not me' at once. And it would be an acto of ignorance to dismiss this as unusefull in the 'real world' (dual world). So that's what we're here to do - bring the two contradictions together - heaven and earth - and we're the humanity in between bringing the two together and creating 'love' and 'acceptance' (everything is perfect as it is ). In Aiwei and Paul I see this luminous limitlessness, but I also have this sad feeling of 'lack of home' - how can I explain it?... lack of having your feet in the mud. It's the feeling I get with the archtypal story of someone leaving home, becoming rich, famous and glorious, but losing the connection with home, family and friends... Then there is the paradox of the feminine approach of 'let it be as it is' and the masculine approach of 'disciplined spiritual work'... then the yang within yin and the yin within the yang - makes my head hurt thinking about it (so I'll stop ) [edit] Thanks Cat. I totally agree... and you seem to have an easier time with words on this lol. And it's very interesting about Jung!

Thanks Mantis - I think most of us are familiar with Mantak's and Lins methods, but it's great ot have it in one place from someone that it works for. Although I also agree with Lin that excersising the pc muscle is overstated and can be counter-productive. I disagree with Winn that the key sound thing is the same as the healing sounds. I quite like Winn, but he does tend to reframe everything to fit his own model... It's like the difference between making a shhhh sound and chanting very deep, vibrating mmmmm sound. The chanting produces a physical vibration that you can move round your body by changing the tone slightly - with a shhh sound the physical vibration is in your mouth - the vocal cords and caveties of your body arent involved, so you dont have this inner, very physical, vibration. The healing sounds work on the principle of pavlovian conditioning - that's why different schools teach different sounds - they all work as long as you do them often and consistently. The key sound, if done as instructed, also creates a reverse breath. Winn is correct in saying that you may want to transmute the sexual energy into heart energy - so you can easily do the heart sound after the key sound... The heart sound alone wont have you orgasming (imo).

On TV last night I saw a little mongolian goat having its testicles ripped out - it was trying to run away and sqwealing loudly - is that fear or just an ignorant goat?

I've been quiet on this topic because it's really interesting to see people's reactions and oppinions, and I find it really hard to express myself with this. Aiwei, ok - deluded thinking - I'm sorry that we live in dual world with dual words, it's just as deluded to judge something as deluded as it is to think of a void... I'm perfectly aware that the map is not the territory... It all comes down to the difference I see in what Aiwei and Father Paul present and what some of my favourite teachers and many of the bums present (Cat comes to mind). I know you can take my language appart and point out the duality and dillusion in my statements, but for just a minute set aside your understanding of spirituality and your point of view. Aiwei and Paul constantly point to the infinite - separation is deluded, thinking of a void is deluded, fear is deluded etc etc - always the infinite always the singular. Aiwei mentioning that the ups and downs of earthly life must be transcended, since it's all illusion anyway etc. This is in sharp contrast with what my favourite teacher has to say, and what I believe Taoism actually points to aswell. The earthly life of ups and downs and duality and emotion and personal 'stuff' and ego and separation is very much real - as real (and more apparent) than the infinite, heavenly singular emptiness (what I call the void here). Near the beginning of this thread ThirstyTraveler pointed me in the direction of the "Waking Down" work (thanks!)... I hadn't looked into it before but it turns out that it matches exactly my perspective. It says that the earthly, dual side of life - with all that it entails (emotions, ups and downs, ego etc) is what needs to be embraced. We need to dive deeply into the pain, pleasure, separation, our egoic stuff - and allow it to be there (rather than attempting to transcend or supress it, or improve it or change it) And that diving into this dualness reveals the infinite aspect and you allow the infinite to shine through all the duality in you. Funny thing is, I've been going on in other threads about the importance of relationship - and it seems that this kind of work requires the building of deep relationship - you relate with a person with all your 'stuff' on show (rather than hiding and supressing all the shadow elements) - and the extent to which you can be present with all your stuff on show whilst being witnessed by another human is the extent that you can allow the light of the void to shine whilst having all this 'stuff'. There is an underlying assumption in all this that is very freeing - everything is perfect as it is - everything - even the doubts that come up about everything being perfect. And this assuption points to the fact that nothing needs to be changed and improved - this sets up the paradox of what spiritual work is - I find that where you encounter paradoxes and confusion is where you grow most. So back to the paradox of earthly life and heavenly enlightenment...

Sounds great - I'll check it out. Another recommendation (although a different sort of film) is Little Miss Sunshine

Yeah, for me the chest feels things in the moment. It's about sensations and awareness of the moment - the belly area is just still and witnessing all that. There may be something to droping from head to heart to belly. Might be easier for some. I have quite an affinity with the belly - not that I dont have loads of problems there (repressed anger and tension) but I can get down there quite easy. My girlfriend finds it much easier to be in her heart (although the emotions can be a little overwhelming). One of my best friends seems most at ease when in the head (his doesn't race and 'grab' as much as mine). The enneagram actually addresses and agrees with these pre-dispositions, which really facinates me...

I like that. Because we never, ever had control - ever! The human mind likes stories - it makes the world easier to navigate - it's the phenomenon of 'mapping' - we map general, hard to describe feelings and experiences in myths and legends and archetypes and in general cultural memes. The mind that has little in the way of a connection to the body can't tell the difference between a story and reality. We see a man in a uniform and he is a policeman - in fact we never see the man, we never see the uniform, we just see a policeman. This is a subtle level of control. The body can't hold stories - it's simpler and more complex because it's not so linear and it isn't so binary (this - that, good - bad, policeman - civilian) it's more 'analog'. When functioning well, the body (and the lower dan tien) just witness - there is no control on that level. It's easier to notice control and illusion on these subtle levels, because when the emotions are involved it gets more difficult (if you suddenly decide to notice control and illusion with the bigger things in life - work, loved ones, family etc. - watch out). I used to do this often: wherever you are now, try this out: first read this, then, with your eyes open, turn them all the way to the left - then, very slowly, gradualy, turn them all the way to the right. Do it now and see what happens. Did you notice whether the movement was smooth or jerky? - did your eyes and focus jump from 'object' to 'object'? I'm betting this was the case - each 'object' is a way of your mind controlling your awareness - it makes an object that you have a story about (TV) more important than the space in between the objects. During my artistic days I worked out how to look and see without engaging this level of control - every good artist can do this (but they may not realise). What I do is drop down into the dan tien and learn to see without my awareness rising back up to the head. (tricky at first). This took me a while, but it improved my drawing a whole lot. What seems to happen is the peripheral vision takes over and I dont really focus on anything specific, just everything, all at once... and it's hard to see detail (reading for example), but it does produce a really still, quiet state of mind. It's kind of like what some people call 'qi gong state'. It's a state of simply allowing things into your awareness, rather than looking for things out there. (if that makes any sense lol) Approaching a policeman in this state is an interesting experience. Your stillness highlights their 'noisiness' - so you sense the apprehension that he has, his own illusiory self identity and importance - and his reaction to your subtle undermining of this authority. I feel myself pulled to accept the illusion because with all his body he argues for this illusion as truth, but I deny that. Makes him feel vulnerable - which makes him protective of himself (comes out differently in different people - some get angry, so get really nice with agression fizzling inside, some just escape, some get paranoid). Then try spending time with your kids in this state - do them a favour, please Give them all your attention, your heart for no reason. Kids recognise this easily. Adults get freaked out, without realising why (all this communication happens on a very subtle level) - my dad usually squirms with guilt and undeservingness when I do this.

I'd go with that. It's the feeling of 'oh crap "I'm" doomed'.

Yes, great post, Hagar. I also find myself occilating between 2 and 4. the X-phase, where the universe is allowed to take over can happen anywhere on the list. I just find that when you do let the universe take over the little 'me' becomes very uncomfortable - If I follow my intuition (with no interference from the ego/little me/mind) I'm placed in curcumstances that allways challenge me in an uncomfortable way. Just as I'm certain about something, I let my intuition take over and there is no certainty at all, it's all confusion. I have this problem with anger - I find it almost impossible to express it, yet I have tons of it inside. If I do express it, it feels like 'acting' - fake anger. Anger and its suppression is what I need to work on - so I work on it with techniques and methods and so on, basically 'comfortable', 'controlled' ways of dealing with it. But in terms of anger there is hardly any progress - so I move down the list, get disheartened, uncertain what to do, and at some point let go of needing to do anything, and that's where the universe takes over and all these things in my life start happening that cause me to get angry - so I either go into it and observe myself being angry and maybe suppressing the anger or I fall back into my old patterns and little me takes over and I'm certain again... I'm just saying that when you let your deepest parts free, we should expect to be uncomfortable - dealing with the discomfort is hard, because we all have deeply ingrained patterns of dealing with pain and discomfort. Enlightenment is light - when you first get even a tiny ray of light, it illuminates all the the dirt you've been ignoring. Also, Hagar, I would suggest that the x-phase is happening all the time (in the background) - whether you're aware of it or not - losing confidence in your practice, the self doubt, even the self denial and the need for hard labour are all specs of dust illuminated by the light of enlightenment. No matter what, you're always on the right track.

'Reality' is far, far simpler than you seem to think. There's nothing much to it - reality is feeling your hands get wet when you wash them in water. I hear that enlightenment allows you to know everything all at once, so you tend to choose to know nothing. The only thing you would be escaping from is 'you' not the world - in fact you would be much more in the world... Enlightenment is not easy, they say - try watching the news when you feel the pain and sorrow of every single event. Enlightenment is not escape from pain and difficulty - it's diving into these and being still and very present even though it hurts so much.

obviously the person appreciating is gonna be you

Sometimes it serves to stop the dialogue - stop the stories - stop the 'me' and the 'my body' and just be. pain? - smile, acknowledge it's there, say thank you, say sorry, say I love you and just sit with it - dont go into the story - admire the lake from dry land - you dont need to get wet to be thankfull. The body has a way of experiencing all the stories and memories at once - only the mind operates in linear time - 'allowing' feelings is just leting go of the mind's clinginess to the pain/pleasure/memory/trauma. Let go of the mind, be still with the feelings - it might work for you...

Have you got citations for that? Keith is dilligently keeping record of what has been happening on 'the HT scene' - he's not writing a medical book - just as you're hardly likely to prove that refraining from ejaculation causes no problems Keith would have a hard time proving it otherwise - so he doesn't try to, he collects experiences and anecdotes of other practitioners and puts it in his own words and in one place. Also it's quite easy to notice it in yourself - opening your body up allows for a lot of sensitivity and you know when you're stagnating - and you certainly feel when you're stagnating and have the energetic pressure of retention creating an even bigger, deeper blockage. I dont practice retention - moderate sexual activity for me at this time... I was ignorantly using the million dollar point when I was younger, thankfully I didn't have any lasting adverse effects - one guy here was reporting foamy urine every time he urinated...

cool - thanks! Actually there are a few neurolymphatic points that run along the illiotibial band (and on the inside leg) - they're very sore to massage, usually. myofacial self relase sounds interesting any advice where I should start looking? Myth, thanks I'll let you know how I get on - I've recently opened up a lot of range of motion of my lower lumbar and pelvis (front to back) so I probably over extend back as a result, that's why my weight is on the heels.

not much - just be with them. musicians might jam - realised humans might just be still... together... When you're in nature and you see a great view - what would you do with it?

I'm guessing an 'IT band' isn't a group of computer nerds with guitars seriously though - what's an IT band?

how about being with other experts of themselves?

agharta, what effects have you personally experienced from ormus?

I can do the squat as per Myth's instructions - sticking out my ass and curling it back and up a bit, like I'm about to sit down - most of the weight is on the heels (is this right?). And I've enjoyed doing these squats really slowly for a few weeks and I can now do it with my toes almost touching the wall. This is how Sonnon teaches his squats (without a wall though). I've also tried Luke Chan's wall squat (here is the link). The difference is, he keeps his feet together, and instead of curling the pelvis behind and up, he seems to curl it forwards towards the wall - this is meant to open the ming men - when I try it this way my knees always go too far forward. "Round your buttock with tailbone tucking inward." - inward means towards the wall, right? Any recomendations from fellow wall squatters? Anyone tried Chan's version?

Congratulations! Do you work with hot (aroused) jing or when it's cool and unaroused?

Nice. First is to notice what i 'know' - this is relatively easy - because in this case every person is your teacher. I notice when I make judgements about people, about actions, about circumstances - he's nice, that's difficult, they're so lucky to be rich, I'm worthless, they dont like her etc. etc. Once I notice what I know I tend to see how it's expressed in my body - how does it feel inside to 'know' that he's nice? Usually there is some aspect of me that's represented by a specific body feeling (often in the midline of the body - where the chakras are meant to be). Once I've got a realtionship with the part of me that causes the judgement, I explore - find out where the part came from, what does it really want for me beyond the surface judgements that it makes - ultimately, every part always wants completion/enlightenment for me - it's trying to help me even though it's in a state of separation... so I live out the story of the part, and let it experience unity - at that point it reaches its ultimate goal and integrates completely - no separation. so it's not that I unlearn, I tend to explore the parts of me that want to learn/know/judge/control/be safe/be dangerous etc and I integrate them. Every month I'm knowing less and less - I can still judge and know, but most of the time it's empty, it's more like an illusion I act out for people so they dont get too freaked out. Most people consider the type of thought process I'm aiming for (and have been getting more and more of) as rather boring - he has a red shirt, she's taller than me, his posture sttops forward, the leaves are brown, the table is wonky, she smells of sex, they are not friends, it tastes salty... this kind of 'knowing' is grounding, but grounding is boring for many. Beyond that I'm aiming to have this kind of 'knowing' on a kinesthetic and visual levels, without resorting to inner dialogue...

I've seen a video of him - felt good, has quite a tangible, accessible transmission. how do you know he levitated and spent 28 days in a cave? Have you studied with him? What/how does he teach, what were your experiences? What are his students like? thanks.

Yen, relax please. This is not a competition - I'm sorry if I've come accross as agressive in any way - you have nothing to defend, and neither do I. I'm fine with not being a 'real' Taoist. I find you very erudite and am seriously impressed by your ability to have such an eye for detail - you have a distinct skill at noticing inconsistencies and similarities - something I'm only mediocre at. In no way have I tried to imply that you're not very intelligent and thorough, and if it seemed that way, then you now know it wasn't my intention. It's ok that we have a different approach to things, isn't it? And it's ok to disagree, but there's certainly no reason to become derogatory... For me words and thoughts and such have only a limited value - for you that's not the case I realise, that needn't make us 'enemies' though - right? If you really are interested in linguistic metamodelling then I'd be happy to demonstrate, but not framed as some kind of challenge or test of intelligence. In fact I think it's something that might really interest you.