freeform

I dont think it's arrogant - when I go to a Chinese household I take my shoes off - when I invite Chinese people to my house I dont expect them to take their shoes off... The cultural differences are chances to learn to relate like humans rather than like Chinese and Westerners. At our office we had a Chinese company as clients - I met with them regularly, we got the brief and started working on the project - we were working on it for over months, meeting weekly to discuss the progress - every time they left with a big smile, seeming really happy with the work... but I started noticing that the project was dragging on, and every month they slightly undermined what we were doing and gave subtle hints that they wanted changes, so we did the changes, and still the project wouldn't come to an end - so I finally broke and asked them frankly: "You dont like the idea at all do you?" They all went red, put on their big smiles and admited they didn't like the project from the outset So they spent a lot of money, time and effort (and so did we!) on something they were too embaressed to say they didn't want... So I started training myself to callibrate the 'chinese smile' as we called it in our office - I could tell just about 99% of the time whether the smile/facial expression was genuine or not - this scared them ofcourse - because I was always up-front and told them as soon as I saw some of their internal disapproval... As a result they started opening up a little bit, coz they knew they cant hide behind their smiles - and I think we finally started enjoying each others company - barriers broke down and we were humans again...

- it's getting weird?

In terms of cool and dead - I'd say Mullah Nasrudin wins hands down in my book... although he is a mythical sort of charcter... that doesn't make him any less 'real' - right?

A secret tends to draw people in - it creates a percieved value, whereas information freely available seems to hold no value, because it's accessible to everyone. That's why there are closed-door systems and sometimes exorbitant fees for spiritual teachings - it creates a perception of value... This has two effects - a person who parts with that much money will have to take it more seriously - and it creates a double bind - in that if you pay for the training you're implicitly agreeing that the training is at least as valuable as what you paid - this is a trick used by marketers to ease 'buyer's remorse' - most people would rather fool themselves that something holds more value than it really does than to admit they were stupid enough to fall for such a trick. I bet you if you put a seminar together and charged $10,000 for it and then repeated the same seminar and made it $10 you would find glowing reviews and life-changing experiences from the first one and moderate reviews and results from the second one. (in fact this has been shown to be the case, but I cant remember the details and couldn't provide references) I'm sure there are other, very valid reasons to keep something secret, but I'm pointing out what happens psychologically in such cases - only because I've studied this a little. The valid reasons are gonna be based arround the fact that some students wont take it seriously, will sell the info as their own, might hurt themselves misusing it etc. There is another way ofcourse - which is to make all information freely available, in which case there is no need to 'protect the pot of gold' and the actual value would be in the contact with a master/practitioner and the relationship which is formed - I would be happy to pay for that - information by itself holds no actual value for me... I think this is the only way it's likely to be sustainable in the future, especially since we're fully engulfed by the Information Age - again when there is limitless amount of information, human relationships hold far more value... anyway - ramble over

I appreciate your respectful reply and completely understand what you mean. thanks. It would be great if more of your posts were as respectful.

I see what Pietro means about pimping - it's really quite accurate (not necissarily 'wrong') There is this constant promise of these amazing practices - that with dedication are the only way to achieve profound 'superpowers' and spiritual ascension. All this pimped-out hype points to the fact that you'll need to pay a substantial price to even get a glimpse of what the training involves. I'll be honest - what Vidiami wrote has made David's system much more appealing - seriously! I'm not going to try to replicate the training, that would be ridiculous, and I'm not going to go spreading the information to others. I'm trying to say that no harm was done, and if anything, the training seems a bit more 'real' now... the issue of respect is whole other topic - to say that we have to supplicate to the chinese way of secrecy holds no more weight than saying that we have to follow the western way of sharing information - which tradition is more 'right'? In this case it's probably more polite to follow the chinese way, since the information originated there, but again - no harm was done from my p.o.v.

Hey Leigh, I'm a designer ('architectural digital artist' at the moment ) - and have a few logos under my belt - have a look at eurobiophysics.org - I did the logo on there and the skeleton for the website. would be happy to help out... also do let me know about the chinese sword society, especially what I can do to help out with fighting against the proposed ban... (you can set up official petitions on the uk gov website btw!)

Dan - which brand is that? I've the powdered stuff - it's not an extract - I didn't feel such pronounced effects - just a bit of an effect on the libido...

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They are some skilled kinesthetic hypnotists - many of us have seen - Derren is a skilled hypnotist, with absolutely no cultivation or energy work experience - in fact he doesn't believe in it... This kind of thing is known as kinesthetic pacing and leading... there is a famous stage hypnosis trick where the hypnotist touches a person on the shoulder (with a word or two whispered in the ear) and they cant move their feet off the ground... and another similar one where the hypnotist picks a strong looking audience member and gets them to pick up something obviously light, then puts his hand on the shoulder and utters a whisper, and suddenly the guy cant lift a thing. I'd like to see these guys doing this double blind style, or with somone who has no interest in cooperating (such as a real attacker)

The central channel is energetic - it may touch part of the inner spine, but it basically runs from the crown of your head to your perineum. The chakras are spinning vortices which bring energy in and give energy out - it's your connection with the macrocosm. The dan tiens are deeper (energetically speaking) and can be thought of as spaces or cauldrons or caves... The lower two chakras are connected in some way to the lower dan tien (at least in me) - they can supply energy to the ldt... the solar plexus is in between the ldt and the middle dan tien (located slightly lower than the heart chakra - in between your nipples and an inch or so inside the chest) - the mdt is connected with the throat and heart chakras... the rest I dont know about, but I suspect it's similar. I dont work too much on the chakras - only sometimes before the orbit circulation... which can be quite powerfull. I find the chakras can fit into the taoist system, and I certainly feel them... the way the indians use the chakras is not in line with the way the taoists do their thang.... in the yogic system there is a general upwards movement - eventually out of your head and into the heavens... the taoist way is circular - encompassing heaven, earth, man (higher dt, lower dt, middle dt) As others have said - thinking about this and trying to make it work in the mind is just illusion, and a waste of time... the key is to experience all of this in your body, and it will all make sense in a feeling sort of way - once you start to put it into concepts it seems to fall appart - so feeling is the key!

If this was a Catholic forum - and you were taking the Catholic route to enlightenment I bet you would get the same response from people - find another human!! The thing is I dont believe you can progress completely without someone acting as feedback... what I mean is - if you're at a restaurant and you have spinach in your teeth and no mirrors, then you'd only find out about it if you were acompanied by someone who had full use of their eyes and had an interest in helping you out. and that's exactly what a master is - she has full use of her eyes (because she has been there, done that), she has full interest in your growth and can act as feedback for stuff that you dont notice. I remember in your intro that there was a distinct lack of working on the emotions - which are connected with your middle dan tien which is connected to people around you - and they're usually your best teachers for that 'level'.

I'm intrigued. what does 'dawning' mean specifically? Is it a mind free of all thought? is it a permanant state? I'm pretty good at no-thought in certain situations... but it's not permanent - far from it. What Ian said about meeting half way, sounds right. 'Empty your mind and let your dan tien move you' - is this what you're talking about? Because a fully realised Shen (the enlightened mind) is one of the later attainments. jing to chi (body essence to energy) and chi to shen (energy to pure non-dual awareness) is the journey on offer with the taoists - as far as I understand it. suddenly you're less of a floating head! thanks

Darin, now that's why you post here!

I do agree with that. This is the difficulty - were they enlightened from birth or not? - I'd suggest no one really knows... My personal oppinion is that every enlightened human had to take on a journey to 'know themselves fully' - and ofcourse that means to shed all knowledge at some point. I have this belief because it is usefull for me right now - Taomeow believes that there was a golden age where 'knowledge of oneself' was a given - there was no journey needed. Perhaps this belief serves her at this time - so it's usefull to her. So you try to go for the non-dual - always reframing our polar judgements and considerations into non-duality. Ofcourse it never is non-dual, because by the very fact that you use words and we read them creates a duality. The Taoists, I believe, recognised the non-dual state of mind, but they didn't rest there, they wanted to find out more about our polar yin yang world - so they studied the body and they studied nature. We're now studying the body ourselves, as a journey to the non-dual - so when someone asks a question relating to experience based in the dual world of the body and then recieves a reply that is based on something non-dual then the immediate usefullness is gone. There is also the question of the feel of the energy of your posts. to me it seems to be shoulders up... when I read your words, my awareness tends to move up to my head - when I read Trunk's words my awareness tends to go down (usually to my thighs ). And this is a very important part of Taoism - physical first - body first - first the roots - and only then the trunk, heart, emotions - and only then head, the leaves, awareness... So the taichi masters - were they enlightened and only then got the movements? Or did they study movement and become enlightened as a result. I would say neither and both - through movement (especially whilst embodying elemental 'qualities') you get a sense of enlightenment - you explore and you create - you should try it. You can do some kind of practice that involves getting into your elements - recognising the feel of each one - then choose an element, stand up, attention in the belly, whilst feeling the qualities of the particular elements and surrender your body to the feeling, you'll find yourself moving... it's like the element is moving you. I dont know anything dual about you - I dont know if you've experienced something like this, so it's hard to relate, it feels inpersonal - it feels like you dont have a heart and a body, just a head that recognises emptiness. I'm suggesting that most of us recognise profound, non-dual emptiness, but for us it's nothing unless we've got that whilst in the supermarket or whilst talking to an angry loved one or while doing tai chi. One of the aims of taoist practice is wu wei - doing without doing - knowing without thinking - effortless action - this all means that all action arises out of the formless non-dual - this is an achievement sought only after transforming your body, heart and mind.

How about just getting a Chinese translator in China - preferrably with experience of taoist texts - and get it translated there - would be much cheaper!

Hey Cat! sorry to include you in the 'we' ... I really mean I tend to make a personality for people... I certainly don't think of you as pixels on a screen, or a collection of words - in my mind you're a person with a certain 'feel' associated, but I cant see, hear or poke you to verify. each of the people here have a 'feel' for me (I tend to use my kinesthetic sense a lot - but I mean a kind of palpable identity/role). I assumed this to be the case with *everyone* which is always silly - as silly as it is giving a clear personality to someone you've never met before - but it's quite human to do that no? I agree, and think Ian touched on something interesting, and for me, at least, got something moving, and as it's my nature to always restore things to neutral I watched myself raise the energy on the opposite side of the spectrum to allow neutrality... the lesson for me is to be aware whether I restore things to a true, centered, emobodied neutral - or an asleep disembodied unconcious neutral... anyway thanks everyone

These guys are meant to be good for pendulums/tools and info: http://www.diviningmind.com/

I feel I need to step up and defend Paul a little (classic enneagram type 9 behaviour ) I dont think he's a troll, and even though many of his posts point either to a dead end or an empty black hole, they're usually short and to the point. We tend to assign roles to people, even in this virtual discussion hall... (think about the very developed idea you have about plato, sean denty, taomeaow, yoda, karen etc...) so Paul fits into a tidy pigeonhole in our minds. I think Paul's view of spirituality is largely fixated in the upper dan tien... he gives us constant reminders to not trust our small minds and points to the idea that an enlightened mind is everything and nothing - it reveals everything and thus nothing, but never one thing and not another (that's what the small mind does). Most of us here are into Taoist based practices - which pay little attention to the upper dan tien untill much later in the cultivation process. So Paul, this is why I think people find you hard to digest - we try to be very grounded into our lower dan tien and interact with our heart (and form the supporting words/concepts/oppinions with our mind), your posts effectively (at least for me) tend to shine light on all the crap that's added to our interactions by the small mind, and tend to leave me in confusion (which imo is a very natural state) but don't provide the emotional backup of your heart and body - we're left confused and with no where to go... you may feel there is actually no where to go, but for us we have our bodies and hearts which are infinately more complex than a clear upper dan tien... I think the reason you're being proded by these well-meaning people is because they (as well as I) want to feel more of you in your posts... and you are more than just your head.

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I've found that if my meditation is very embodied then I tend to be more emotional later in the day (awareness of suppressed emtions and traumas)... If it's a 'thoughtless' type meditation then I tend to become quiet inside and able to watch my emotions come up and fade... they dont stop, but I can feel centered while having them instead of getting caught in the drama of it. (I can also notice how the emotions get triggered and become more aware of the pattern I tend to repeat concerning that emotion or that aspect of me that's holding on to this behaviour pattern and emotion - this is very helpful for me) I've been attempting to combine the thoughtlessness with the embodiment - which results in the suppressed emotions and traumas to reveal themselves during the actual meditation, while I'm centered and able to be fully attentive to the details.

How they (usually) make this kind of product: Whilst the glass is melted and as it's cooling and hardening it's subjected to intense energy fields of a certain frequency... the way the atoms settle as the glass cools contains some of the energy signature of the original energy field... The price is a bit ridiculous... I've bought the type of the device that produces these intense energy fields in the manufacturing process and paid less than $500... If I get the frequency right I can charge ordinary water and make it taste sweet, similar (I guess) to what Sean Denty says one of the masters he met can do. I once left the device on for two weeks and it developed a huge vortex of energy that I suspect extended up far higher than my roof - there was usually a round hole in the cloud cover above the house. You can tune the frequency of the energy, but it's still been hard to sleep near it when it's on. I only turn it on once in a while to charge things.

Taomeow, Thanks, I also enjoy your posts and your perspective is very valuable indeed. My disagreements are only attempts to 'round out' a perspective... I have no interest in being 'right' - this holds no value for me. I have a feeling that your view of 'natural' is tied closely to your practice... you have shamanic roots to your practice, right? I have a patchy model for understanding the evolution of humanity - based on the three dan tiens... The pre-historic natural cultures you talked about were based deeply in the lower dan tien, connected to the earth and and its natural cycles... after the rise of agriculture we started living in larger groups connecting much more through culture and relationship, based mainly in the middle dan tien... We now live in a time where the focus is shifted into the upper dan tien... This is something new... the head is like the youngster of the three, unruly, constantly grasping and controlling... the noise of the head has drowned out the other two dan tiens. So I believe we cant go back to the belly based culture just as the butterfly cant go back to being a catterpillar, so what I have to do is explore the head more closely, whilst developing the core channel linking all the three dan tiens... We're new humans, and it's important for us to learn the wisdom of the past and cultivate in the present (accepting all the unnaturalness as a natural phenomenon of change)... sorry to go off topic here - maybe a new thread is in order?