freeform

evZENy, I like your reply, thanks. I know that outer looks and fashion seem unspiritual and superficial, and they certainly can be... and at the same time other people's spirituality might be empty and shallow in the same way... Once there is a connection to the 'true self' or your core, you can do whatever arises in you... some people will feel an impulse to be fashionable, some feel an impulse to be unconcerned with looks... some feel they have to have sex with hundreds of partners and some feel they need to be cellibate... I'm saying that once there is connection with that deeper part of yourself, anything that arises is natural... it is natural by the very fact that it arose from that deep place. Is it unnatural for a bird to intervene with the nature of their nest and start adding shiny blue objects to it? indeed it's important to accept the hair growing on your body, but it's equaly important to accept your desire to shave, pleat, adorn, colour, perm it - if that desire comes from You and not cultural programing.

Wayfarer, I think we're on the same page and I totaly agree... especially with what you said about 'control'... And I find that avoiding the bad, annoying, crap-throwing monkey is a subtle way of trying to control... and by avoiding that monkey you're avoiding a potential lesson that could possibly move you further down the way... So how do we know whether connecting with the bad will lead us further down the path? Well, we need to stop knowing about it and only letting our bodies lead us to whatever, without even thinking in terms of healthy/harmful... By no means am I saying that that's what I do all the time, but when I do manage it just a little, everything nourishes me, and ofcourse as soon as I try to work out why that monkey crap has just nourished me, I lose it...

We've had enneagram threads before, but I've recently been finding a lot of inspiration from it and thought I'd re-approach the topic again, and perhaps some of the newer Bums who havent heard of it before could explore it. At the very superficial level the enneagram is a system of personality typing... and that's how I saw it the first time I was introduced to it... but recently I've been getting a lot more out of it... It's an ancient system that is very compatible with the Taoist model, the types are based on the constitution of the three dan tiens and can help one discover their attachments, life patterns, and the parts of ourself that we tend to hide from eachother (and ourselves)... anyway, if you'd like to discover what may be your 'type', you can do this excellent online test then you can read about your, and other people's types on Thomas Condon's site and on Jerry Stocking's site so, what's your type? and what do you think about this whole thing?

Wayfarer, all very good points and I do understand about the different levels of consciousness and different levels of 'separateness'... and I agree there are people who hurt and destroy others, themselves, their loved ones and their environments... what I don't agree with is that any of this is wrong or unnatural... it's just the way it is... and from my POV as soon as we make a judgment - good, bad, natural, unnatural, cruel, asleep etc... we separate ourselves from it and it is part of the universe as much as anything else... don't get me wrong, I'm not saying do nothing about it... but I'm also not saying do something about it... just be still, listen to your heart, stay connected with your body and you will do exactly what you need to do for the best of all concerned... reading that, the first thought that comes to mind is - "we must teach people to connect to their hearts and bodies" - yes, maybe - but only if this impulse comes from the body aligned with the heart, and not solely as an idea in the mind, otherwise with our best intentions we tend to propogate exactly what we want to fight... so let me try and bring it back to sex... Pietro was talking about our natures, for some of us it is more natural to have multiple partners and for some of us none at all... that 'nature' is only evident when the body and heart align... and you cant decide that it's your nature and then forget that alignment, you have to be ready for whatever might cum.

what's unreal about shaving? why can't someone accept the reality of shaving? Tao is about 'reality as it is'... not 'reality as you, or I or some sage think is natural'

It's to be expected - you're pregnant with your spiritual self right? but seriously, I dont do alchemy as such, but maybe your body is craving for some vitamins/minerals... try concentrating on the hunger and feel if gravitates towards any specific food, or if it's something other than physical hunger... Shilijit or Shilajit is an ayuverdic mineral supplement... it's plant matter that has been compressed in the cracks of the himalayan mountains over millions of years, following the seasons and going through it's own natural alchemy for litteraly tens of millions of years, in the summer when the mountain heats up this stuff starts oozing out of the cracks where it's collected and purified with raw milk... contains loads of minerals, and micro minerals, fulvic acid etc I've been taking this in small doses for a few months and have been enjoying it very much, it seems to nourish all the organ systems (although I also take cod liver oil, so that might account for my heart and liver feeling good)...

I'm interested in why you think this, I personally hold an almost opposite view, and so it would be interesting to challenge it and see if it still stands... It's quite a human trait to look back on the good old times, with the rose tinted glasses and all... couldn't this 'golden age' business be a reflection of this tendency on a grander scale? In another post you said that we used to live in a natural way, and that now we dont... ofcourse this puts the word "natural" on shaky ground - how do you define it? For me "natural" means 'as it is in this moment'... so as long as you're in the moment everything is natural... the degradation of one culture, the rise of another etc. it all happens naturally... I mean it could be seen that man adds the 'unnatural' element into the equation, with all the controlling and messing with nature, but in my view humans of every kind are natural and part of nature even if they are scraping coral off the bottom of the sea right now... I believe that if you connect with each moment as deeply as you can, all universal knowledge is available to you... if you stay silent enough, you start to hear the universe, and the universe will tell you and show you the exact thing that will enlighten you the most in that moment... I view the universe as endlessly abundant in every moment - I dont hold the view that it was abundant once, in the good old days, where it shared its wealth with us, and now we live 'unnaturally' so are not graced with this abundance, so we have to grab at every thread that leads us back to that golden age...

My current girlfriend is a 4... there is definately a 'special woundedness' that I feel when I 'connect'. One thing you 4's do that astounds me every time is how emotionally perceptive you are... It frightens me sometimes (being a 9, it's hard for me to feel the turmoil of emotions)... I could be talking to my girlfriend, and unknowingly go into my head and illusions... and before I've even realised it myself, I hear a dramatic "what's wrong?" There is a way that 4's tend to use their eyes that I don't recognise in others... (maybe just a bit in 2's)... There is a real sense of deep connection when the heart is not blocked... And that's the thing - I like type 4 girls, but most that I've met are really scared to connect, but when they do it's beyond words... I feel more connected to my and the girls heart than I can ever be just with my own effort... So all you 4's please nurture your incredible ability to connect with your heart (beneath the emotional turmoil), you're amazing when you do!

Not sure why you're finding answering the questions so hard... just be honest and dont over-think the answers... and dont answer how you would like yourself to be, just how you are now... it isn't meant to be hard or too serious... if you think you would answer differently when in a different mood, then why not try it when you are in a different mood, see if you get a different result... also read through the other links and see which type you resonate with. The purpose of the test is to find your enneagram type... and some people find the enneagram a valuable tool to learn more about themselves

hehe actually I'm Armenian... but I have a bit of Georgian blood too... I must admit that taking this kind of test is the most artificial way of learning about the enneagram... but it does give you a starting point. I'd recomend getting your test results and then reading about that Type on the other two websites that I gave the links to in my first post... then read about the other types and see which ones resonate... Wayfarer, I thought you were a 2 before this thread... you seem to have a gift of really deeply connecting with people. 7s are definately fun... a few of my friends are 7s, and it's hard to keep up with them - you're so active! Meow, in another post you wrote your interpretation of the mountain trigram - a lot of stillness inside, a lot of action on the outside... seems like a very healthy 7... my 7 friends find it quite hard (and possibly boring) to look deeply into themselves... it kind of scares them...

I can't speak for everyone, but for me, personally it would serve to separate me from reality to try and stay away from 'bad' energy... even making the judgment of 'this is bad, that is good' somehow brings me out of my body and into illusion... I think it's quite a type 9 thing (from the enneagram) to include everything... for me that's the only way to be... This doesn't mean that I wont be damaged by 'bad' or 'good' energy - far from it... but I cant ignore, disown and not be in love with all of it whether good or bad... my greatest compass is my body, and so it's important for me to be guided by the intuition of the body rather than 'do not do that' rules... Sometimes I'll intuitively be drawn to something considered to have a bad energy, and perhaps I'll get burned by it... but I consider that everything that happens to me and in me contains the exact lesson I need in that moment to make the greatest spiritual progress. and thanks for your posts, Yen - you have an excellent eye for detail and thoroughness and can spot a missing piece a mile away, an ability I would love to have.

I really liked the first part of your post, Taomeaow! As to the second part, I'm not sure whether master Ni is a dudd or not... I certainly found the the list of "Do not"'s that Yen presented a few posts back rather un-Taoist... but what was said about Tao being beyond words is certainly accurate imo... It's possible that Ni's nature requires these "do not" rules... but for me, mixing with people of only 'good' energy would be very detrimental... my nature is to include all both good and bad, for me it can't be any other way... Also 'mountain human' has certain connotations for me... the major one being the incredible groundedness of a mountain, and at the same time it's ability to reach up to the heavens... certainly a wizzard to me feels like someone connected very much with his lower dan tien and earth... earth magic etc

The way I understand it, the enneagram is an attempt to direct you to your 'true nature' ... not really personality (ego)... It's actually quite a Taoist concept that we each have a natural way of being that is different from one another... Pietro's post in the Taoist sex thread commenting on the constitution of each individual's sexual nature brought that home to me. I sometimes see it in a kind of energetic way.... the pure light of early heaven wuji turns into a nine coloured rainbow, each of us taking on a colour to experience in later heaven... ofcourse this colour is then tinted and marred by our ego and 'personality'... I'm a fan of Gurdjieff (I'm the same nationality) and certainly see the law of three is apparent in people... Being a type 9, I tend to neutralise and shy away from polar arguments (I re-read a few of my posts here and it's quite evident I always try to bring polar discussions back to neutrality), my dad and my boss are both 8s and have a very active, explosive energy to them. it facinates me how quickly they make decisions... On the last enneagram thread Sean posted something about New Equations who use the body to reveal and embody your enneagram type... They have a really great website, which is definately worth checking out... Again you could use the enneagram as a pesonality typing system (which is how it's packaged these days, because there is not a huge interest in its spiritual application) or you can use it to explore yourself and relate to others, which is, I believe, the most usefull way of looking at it...

That's very interesting... because type 4s tend to take on type 1 characteristics when comfortable and type 2 characteristics when stressed... I dont actually think of the enneagram as a personality test, although you generally approach it first by filling out a test... I'm finding it very usefull and valuable as a spiritual tool... I'm a type 9, which is an instinctual type (operates from the belly) and has a big prolem with anger (expressing it)... which I discovered in myself, and then found the enneagram to correlate... a type 9 likes to bring opposing energies into balance... the story of my life

Thanks Max, interestingly in hawaiian mystic traditions what you call 'energy strands' (and they call ka cords i think) are a big deal... they connect you to not only your lovers, but family, friends, and 'external attachments'... (and are located in the solar plexus/belly area) Traditionally when you reach a higher vibration you cut all the cords... and then let them re-attach consciously, so that they dont drag you back down and instead operate in synchrony with your higher vibration.

good point!! I know several people that build very powerfull chi generators, but in my oppinion they dont quite have the very fine distinctions between the type of energies produced... the collaboration between a sensitive Taoist master and one of these guys with the knowledge of the technology behind these devices could be an incredibly fruitfull one!

a very late Happy Birthday to you, Michelle!!

and enlightenment and god and paul kren vast fullness everything to be called this or that

indeed

Technology (and science, to a lesser extent) is one of the most important aspects of humanity now... technology has had a huge impact on the lives of humans, much more so than any political, religious or economic system. We wouldn't be sharing our thoughts right now, if it weren't for technology... most of us wouldn't have even heard of taoism if it weren't for technology. the stress eraser does sound pretty cool - let me know how you like it, I'm thinking of ordering one.

great questions! yes it is a state of 'percieved' fragmentation... and most of us humans behave 'as if we are fragmented'... so it's also a 'functional' fragmentation. the spiritual game is to unveil our deeper, uncoscious completeness.

great post, Taomeow

I dont disagree wildly from you, Ian... I think getting deeply into your body is the biggest component of silencing thought. I do, however, differentiate thought into two categories - thought as 'content' and thought as 'process'... What I mean by thought as 'process' is 'awareness'... what I mean by thought as content is 'what you are aware of' Thought as content is the inner dialogue, internal visualization (eg think of your mother's eye colour)... Thought as process is simply 'sensory awareness'. It's possible to lose 'thought as content' - and the first step in that is realising that all content is illusion - especially the content that you hold on to dearly (such as your self image - the beliefs about yourself). and the way most of us have to do it si to bring our full bodies into awareness, a huge task in and of itself. Imagine your mother balancing a cake on her head... if you don't get it, you're missing out on the biggest joke in the universe... Thought as process is a different matter... us 'modern humans' can use thought as process to get into deeper contact with our 'true selves'. The mind (when it is free of content) can be used on itself - being aware of awareness. You can't lose your upper dan tien, and you cant lose 'thought as process', but you can become more aware of it... and once you're aware of how your awareness tends to function (its active process - the habitual patterns of awareness and attention) you can start to play... you can start to shift the process so that your thinking includes your body (and emotions)... when this is achieved, what we call 'intuition' starts to manifest. Eventually everything you do can be guided by intuition rather than content... you might choose to become rich - not because it would make you happier because of the glorified image of 'richness' in your head, but because it's what you have to do - it's part of your 'destiny'... Enlightenment requires you to be aware from all of you - not just the body, or just the mind, or just the heart - but all of you, balanced between the three centres... you can use your belly to take action and make decisions, your heart to connect to people and the human universe around you and your head to create new things or entertain yourself - now imagine how you would like others to see you... now imagine the same thing, but put a cake on your head

In cybernetics (study of 'systems') we can have an 'open system' and we can have a 'closed system' - A closed system involves having (lets say) definite information that is being passed on through generations... information in closed systems tends to degrade exponentially, especially if the transfer of information is word of mouth, a rather inefficient medium... An open system is charachterised by an exponential growth in information... information is passed on from generation to generation but is constantly being added to and transformed... most people assume that Tai Chi and many of the other Taoist arts belong to a closed system... so there is this scarcity mentaility going on - that there are only a few people with the knowledge and it's unavailable to most... And there are all these schools and teachers that have 'the true' information that they withold from the rest of us. I would suggest that Taoist arts are part of an open system... the information is available to each of us in each moment. The system is based on the natural way of things and can be seen everywhere... The ancient Hawaiians had a remarkably similar system to the Taoists, and as far as I know they've had no contact with each other... ofcourse to tap into this information requires getting out of our own way - not an easy task, but a simple one... Once, when I was peeling an orange, I experienced the whole of the universe in the orange and in the act of peeling it... I saw the truth of how consciousness, physicality and the universe creates itself in every moment and this can relate back to my cultivation practice... today, for example I was flexing a 1metre long, metal ruler and suddenly 'understood' (physiologically, not mentally) how counterforce breathing works. Tai Chi was designed to create these kinds of learning opportunities... but people tend to over-complicate things and get in their own way... I suggest that if you go in deep enough into any action you can glean profound lessons - whether Tai Chi, Bagua, standing, sitting, playing guitar, flexing a ruler, peeling an orange - if we're present we can learn and progress spiritually in every moment...

Very! If your mind is busy and loud you miss the rest of the universe... most definately. many different methods you can try. It's the simplest thing in the world, but also one of the hardest. there are a few general approaches to it... the one spectrum mentioned is based on 'trance'... concentrate on one thing to the exclusion of everything else and relax your body, your mind will quiet and you'll enter a profound trance... if practiced regularly it has great benefits for relaxation - if you do your internal work in this state, things will happen faster, and you'l get more out of it... another way of doing it is concentrating on everything and letting it all in... this is the yin version of the above method and is more difficult... you need to use your peripheral vision, your hearing and your kinesthetic sense. take in all of your visual field (not focusing on anything specific), then start listening to everything you can hear (dont seperate the sounds in your mind - you need to hear everything at once)... then put your physical attention (kinesthetic sense) to each of the 6 directions in turn and keep it there... then with each breath smell the air you breathe and taste it as it runs down into your belly. obviously you learn to do this in stages... just the peripheral vision excersise has incredible benefits... also you'll notice that the only way you can keep your focus on all these different things is by moving all the energy out of your head and down to your belly... and it's important not to 'reach' with the senses, but be passive, let the universe come to you. I, by no means, have perfected this, but every now and then everything aligns and I feel total emptiness/fullness and it feels as if I'm the universe... and the universe is experiencing itself through me. the idea is after this state is mastered you stand up and start moving with all this awareness intact (you wouldn't be able to do set moves - it would have to be freeform, 'thoughtless' tai chi, otherwise the mind gets in the way). Unlike the trance state, this one can be your general, day to day state once you master it. There are some other 'mental' excersises I do which silence the mind directly and quite quicklyt... I've written about them before...