freeform

I’m curious - what have you achieved with your approach, @Taoist Texts? I seem to remember that isolation was a key part of your practice (along with reading classics of course) - but what attainments have you had?

Yes Quanzhen and Longmen lineages include plenty of meditative work. Southern schools are more Ming-focused. My practise also doesn’t quite agree with Damo that alchemy should be used simply for fuelling meditative states… That’s not how my teacher does things… though meditative states are still a key part of the ‘middle pillar’ of practices.

Sensory pleasure is one of those things that’s very intoxicating for people… From a Daoist alchemical pov focusing on sensual pleasure is moving in the opposite direction from spirit. The Hun and the Po are the two aspects of one’s soul… The Po is the temporary, earthly aspect that is always keen on sensory experience… on ownership… control of the physical… creation of an identity. But this takes away from the immortal aspect of the soul which is hiding within the Hun… and so by following the whims of the Po, people become ensnared by their senses and their attachment to self. The process of ‘sealing the senses’ is an essential aspect of the early foundation for alchemical training. So doing the opposite… stimulating the senses and the desires and one’s sense of self - this basically creates one of the biggest ‘leakages’ for qi. And this is all before touching on the concept of base desires and how focusing on sexuality will affect the Jing… but that we’ve already talked about at length

There’s no end to the creativity of men who wanna get laid

Thanks for sharing When I first experienced zifagong I had only heard about it second hand - and kind of shelved it as another ‘I’m not sure I believe this’ thing. The experience was a complete surprise because the teacher didn’t really say much about it - it just started spontaneously in a few people in the room. The girl doing the bagua circles - yes the qi will start touching on certain ‘muscle memories’… so often people will act out whatever is recorded in their body through habitual practice. However it sounds like @cloud444 awoke his qi through forceful methods and without the prerequisite ability to sink. The qi wants to go up up up… so unless you’ve learned to sink physically and mentally - it’ll keep wanting to go up… On its way up it basically stimulates your adrenals, the fight or flight response, the emotions, thinking etc… If you then add fear and paranoia into the mix, this energy will just add extra fuel to these things and anchor it deeper into the body. So yes - uncontrolled or incorrectly practiced zifagong can cause lots of issues. I actually think it’s best to avoid Damo’s qi deviation videos to start with. Better to get your mind completely off the subject and onto something else for at least 3 months.

Just to reiterate. What you describe here is movement of Yang Qi. The process of all the spontaneous movements, shaking, chanting, yogic poses, breathing patterns, bliss, internal movements - all of this is exactly what happens when Yang Qi awakens and you start going through what’s called a zifagong process. There are many people on the forum that have and are experiencing this (though it’s not out of control for them). No one is questioning your experiences - or not believing you. I’ve experienced all of this and have seen hundreds of people experience it. Its just what you’re describing is often misunderstood to be kundalini - but in fact it’s a common process in Neigong and other internal arts. You're just unfortunate to have awoken it without a teacher or some guidance!

The difficulty is that when someone is in the midst of this sort of thing, they’re no longer rational. The mind is spiralling down a certain path - and no matter how much you try to help and give advice, they’re not in a place where they’re able to hear it. When my teacher handled these sorts of cases it was usually up to the family of the patient to make these changes for them. And almost always the one suffering is pretty much forced (often kicking and screaming) into this sort of lifestyle change. It must feel like prison or like being kidnapped and forced against one’s will… and this was always quite troubling for me - even if I understood the reasoning and what’s at stake here… 😔 Often people would be sent for many years into a monastery or a live-in kung Fu school… or to the uncle who lives remotely doing subsistence farming etc etc. So I give this advice here - praying it will be heard and taken into consideration. But I know that 90% of the time it won’t… I can only do what I can do and I pray they see through the smokescreen of their suffering at some point or another. 🙏🏼

People call any movement of Qi ‘kundalini’. Your spine and the channels around your spine are responsible for moving and even generating Yang Qi. And kundalini is said to go up the spine - so people draw parallels. Yang Qi in this case interacts directly with your nervous system. Which is what causes sensations, spasms, even issues involving your adrenals - and the myriad other possible positive and negative effects. Its not kundalini - it’s qi or prana. Kundalini works at a deeper level than the nervous system. But whatever you call it, it’s not too important… ‘kundalini’, ‘Yang Qi, ‘prana’… it doesn’t matter. As long as you’re focused on it… fighting it… keeping it down… raising it up… controlling it in some way - you’re causing yourself more and more trouble. Any qi divination has to start with moving the awareness away from that aspect of the self. You don’t fight it, or try to ignore it… you simply put your awareness on something other than that. It doesn’t matter if you still feel or experience it. Your awareness needs to be fully and honestly directed away from it… on something external… let it carry on happening in the background, that’s fine - but stop paying it any more attention than to the rest of what is available to your awareness. That’s why walks, time with friends, activities with dexterity or hand-eye coordination are good - because these are great things that will naturally pull on your attention and have you focusing and becoming absorbed by something else for a long enough time. Particularly time with friends, other people will help with a change in mental habit. Moving the mind away from the same broken record of pain, fear, fear of pain, fear of fear, self victimisation… self isolation… self aggrandisation etc… The mind needs to get back to relative normality - and that can only happen with the help of other people, relationships and healthy habits. The second part is getting the body back into homeostasis. With most of these ‘kundalini syndromes’ (aka qi deviations) the main problem is ‘heating an empty pot’. Ever walked away from a boiling soup and came back only to find everything has been evaporated and all you’re left with is a horrible burnt, smoking mess? Well that’s what’s happening in the body… the Yin of the body has been cooked away into nothing by the Yang… But the Yang now rages even harder as there is no Yin to balance it out… but it rages harder even though it doesn’t have access to fuel (which is also Yin.) So it starts to burn up whatever it can - including nerves, bones, marrow etc etc etc. Yang rises (especially when there’s no Yin to anchor it down)… it goes to your heart and your head… it creates problems with emotions - basically fuelling any emotional movement… it starts to distort mental processes. The result is a mixture of mania and lots of delusions, non-stop, psychotic-like thinking etc. Thats why both the mind and the body need some help. To get the body back into homeostasis we need to take a long road of replenishing Yin… which means a constant diet of very simple nourishing foods… like what a pregnant lady 200 years ago might have eaten during winter. The other part is getting the body processes back into a natural rhythm… waking at the same time EVERY day… going outside (rain or shine) at the same time every day… eating… going to bed… exercising - all at the same time every day. This isn’t about living a rich life of spontaneous creativity… this is about repairing a severely out of whack system. So my recommendation to Cloud (and others in a similar situation) isn’t just made up by me coz it sounds sensible. It’s a literal prescription - every part of it has to be done - and one has to keep doing it non stop… often for many years! To get some relief doesn’t take that long… but relief is not cure. It’s a long road - for serious cases like this, I would say you need to live this way for a minimum of 3 years - and then see. Of course medical expertise is important too. If you have access to a good Chinese medicine practitioner - that’s even better. If you have a therapist or body worker - and they fully understand the direction you’re trying to move in… then that’s also great. But in reality it’s the consistent and diligent application of lifestyle changes that will make the biggest difference in this sort of thing.

Haha - that’s a classic! Yes that’s also zifagong… it’s just these people think that zifagong is ‘magical’… (it’s not) It’s about as magical as taking a wee… but equally as useful

I think I’ve had an exchange with @cloud444 before… My main advice is around adjusting lifestyle. Firstly creating daily structure - wake up at the same time every morning… walk outside for at least 30 minutes every morning at the same time… eat at the same time daily… go to bed at the same time daily. Sleep is important - get 8hrs - and again must be consistent time-wise… avoid screens and too much stimulation for a few hrs before bed. Food - simple, nourishing home cooked food. Potatoes, beets, carrots, sweet potatoes, leafy greens… Meat - liver or beef once in a while (avoid lamb). Stop all refined sugar, stimulating drinks (coffee, alcohol etc) No more fruit juices or any sweet drinks. Eat lots of nuts and seeds (walnuts, pumpkin seeds and almonds particularly good). Eggs/egg yolks are good Steamed sweet potato with wilted spinach and a small bit of chicken liver and a couple of boiled eggs for example is a very good meal for nourishing yin. don’t drink cold water - have warm water throughout the day. Omega 3, vitamin d are good as supplements. Avoid taking lots of other supplements. Mental state - that’s the most important - you basically have to get your mind off of your situation and focus on something else. No more research on kundalini or anything related. Even with your pain and discomfort you can find something you can do… stuff like volunteering is great, but also gardening, drawing puzzles, playing an instrument - anything that requires focus and using your hands… relationships - talking to a friend (face to face)… hanging out with people that make you laugh etc. This will be difficult because ingrained patterns will try to get you back to your habitual patterns. The easiest way to change is to have a friend be your ‘coach’ - someone that holds you accountable to making these changes. The issue is that when you’re really unwell it seems very difficult to make a change… when you feel very strongly about your affliction - when it becomes the central concern in life day after day, it’s like a huge, heavy flywheel spinning in one direction - and it’s got so much momentum that it’s difficult to not only stop it - but also start it moving in the other direction. The above advice might seem trivial and like it couldn’t possibly help… but it will if you really put it into practice. You’ll need help and support from people around you. Good luck!

I’ve handed over thousands simply to be introduced to some teachers… literally a bag full of cash just for an introduction (couple of which never went anywhere!)… like a really wholesome drug deal So in comparison, the price seems somewhat reasonable. I still believe (like @Shadow_self mentioned) there are prerequisite foundations necessary to make this seated stuff really work. Brine did a ton of internal martial arts and qigong before he ever me WLP… I’m certain that part of his success in the system is due to having built a foundation outside of the system.

Haha that’s true… you’d hope that’s not the case (though some Chinese teachers certainly give off megalomaniac vibes ) I doubt very much that Brine would earn enough for all that to be honest. I think it’s up to teachers how much they charge… as it’s up to the student whether they pay for it or not. Earning a living is a tricky part of making this stuff your life purpose - no easy answers there…

Ouch… For that price… instead of buying all these courses one could chat to Neirong on his discord for a whole year! But yes - it’s quite expensive isn’t it. If I was really interested, I’d save up my pennies and go and see WLP instead. I think this move to teaching online isn’t a good one to be honest. Though I do understand that teachers need to eat and clothe their kids…

The Rajneesh practices weren’t what I’d call zifagong - like the above… They're more like an induced mania. This can then turn into zifagong or spontaneous movement for some people - but from what I’ve seen in videos - for the majority it’s just a form of expressing and intensifying emotion. Stuff like primal scream or ‘ecstatic dance’ etc. These all fall into the same category. It’s entertainment at best and quite damaging at worst (didn’t many people doing this primal scream therapy when it was all the rage end up with serious issues and suicides?) Zifagong as a practice is different in that it’s the result of Yang qi stimulating the nervous system (before going deeper). That means that you don’t feel much emotion inside… you might be laughing or growling on the outside, but inside you’ll feel neutral - like an observer (unless you then actively promote the emotion arising as well - then it’s no longer a useful practice). Imagine sending an electrical impulse into a knot of anger held in the body… the electrical impulse - just like the knee jerk response starts to release that knot - and it will express in various ways - sometimes as expressed anger… sometimes laughing… sometimes just shaking or even bounding around like a deer. You don’t want to do it the other way round (imagine something that makes you angry… then express that anger and intensify it inside)… this does the opposite - it actually adds anger into the body - rather than releasing it.

Generally it’s best to stay away from mixing energetic systems. (Very simplistically…) Any system that works directly on the energy body is essentially training a certain pathway for the energy to follow. Like digging a trench for water to get to your veg patch… Different systems have different ideas on how exactly to dig these trenches… And combining several methods will most likely end up in a chaotic veg patch. It may get too much water and be muddy… or you’ll inadvertently waste your water somewhere along the way and have dry lifeless patch… However. If you know exactly what you’re doing… and you know exactly where systems align and where they diverge - then you can mix elements of one with another… But knowing what you’re doing is the key here… What you’ve mentioned about your qigong practice, @chidaruma - it sounds like it’s at the non-energetic end of the scale as far as qigong goes. So assuming you stay with postural stuff, opening the kwa, stretching etc - then you should be fine… But combining powerful Dantien based practices with the various locks and breath holds I’ve seen in Tibetan practice could be quite problematic. Have you considered doing some internal martial arts instead? Taiji, bagua etc? Providing you find a good teacher, these arts may give you what you’re looking for in regards to opening, strengthening and rebuilding the body, without too much of the energetics affecting your main practice.

Hope it weathers the storms 🙏🏼

The under eyes have various factors - cold is one… depletion of the heart fire is another - it’s not so clear cut. The most obvious thing to look for in kidney depletion is weakening of the legs, pain in any of the joints of the legs… hips… lower back. There’s also a decline in willpower - you get tired of making decisions earlier in the day… you easily fold and go for junk food or junk stimulation… we don’t do that workout, or give up quickly with difficult tasks etc etc. Apart from ‘fuel’ another aspect of jing, there is also its role in the unfolding of bodily changes over time… it’s jing that dictates puberty, menopause, ageing, balding etc… and the related hormonal changes too. I guess hormone replacement is a way to artificially affect this process… I have no idea what the implications of that are. But there’s certainly a long history of tweaking the processes of jing unfoldment! Im pretty sure that the “Amrita” fluid that develops in practice has a hormonal component to it… I know when it started for me, everything about my physiology started to change… like a second puberty (just less angsty 😅)

I did think… the conversation was circling in an odd direction… now it all makes sense Welcome back ChiDragon

Haha no - the issue is that Zhan Zhuang has nothing to do with planks. Its like if someone said “hang on a second” and as wise dude you went and started to hang off a clock. ZZ is a standing practice that develops various qualities for Taiji and Neigong - it’s ‘standing like a pole’ because you stand up straight like a pole… not because you stand on poles or on planks

He was very unsteady - rocking back and forth on it Im sure the video is still somewhere here

It’s not that he doesn’t want students from this forum… he doesn’t want any new students or patients at all. He’s retired from public life years ago - and only continues teaching his old students on a very casual basis. (Whereas we used to live with him full time in the beginning). When I first heard about him, I moved to the same area, but I still couldn’t just go train with him… I had to be introduced - which meant I had to train with another teacher (who I didn’t like at all) for 3 months before I’d get introduced… That in itself was a lot of money and a lot of wasted time. Then he still wouldn’t teach me… So I worked out who one of his senior students was (had to get my girlfriend to stalk him ) I managed to get friendly with him and started training under him for several months before I could meet the teacher again… Urgh not that laowai again But that’s when he just told me to sit still until he comes back (and luckily by that time I already knew this trick)… he only came back 3 or 4 hours later (hoping I’d be gone I imagine!) Teaching is a massive responsibility for my teacher… for most spiritual teachers. It’s akin to fostering a child or getting married - you’re not gonna jump into it just like that…

Once ChiDragon sent out a video of himself ‘practicing Zhang Zhuang’… Everyone here was a bit confused coz the video was showing how he could almost (but not quite) balance by standing on a plank placed on a couple of bricks. Turns out he did a direct translation of Zhang Zhuang… which comes out as something like post-standing or plank-standing. So that’s what he thought this practice is all about 🤦‍♂️

Haha - oh the irony! The dude with no name and some demonic cartoon persona… no history… no teachers… no lineage… nothing to show but denigration of others to bolster his own self identity. And for a low low price of only $2800 a year you can chat to him on discord I rather chat to ChiDragon

Yup - that whole ‘intoxicating’ quality I was talking about - it is fuelled by Jing! That high gamblers feel - that’s generated by burning up their Jing. That drive to be adored and respected - that whole ‘I’m the main character! Woo!’ thing - also fuelled by Jing. Any such compulsions drain our Jing over time.

Love it - well put