freeform

Do you reckon there can be a non-distorted perception? I think having a body and five senses and the neurology that we have, automatically means that we distort reality into a human-shaped perception... I reckon that even the most enlightened masters cant help but distort the universe into a human 'shape' even if their 'shape' is far, far more all-encompassing than most.

Thanks for the info, spyrelx

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So I've been thinking about warriors a lot... have had a dream about it... and good old uncle Bob Wilson popped into my dream with some Tarot cards... they weren't the normal tarot cards, but ones that made sense 8-Circuit Model of Consciousness Having woken up, I thought to myself immediately - a Warrior (in the way that neimad describes it) is the transformed manifestation of the Second Circuit - the 'Anal Emotional-Territorial Circuit'... something that is part of our inherent psychological map. A non-transformed - Anal Territorial Warrior, shits on people (marks territory - whether mental, emotional, spiritual, sexual etc) and is a natural politician... when you transform the Circuit you get Leary's 6th circuit - 'The Metaprogramming Circuit' as Bob calls it... working on this circuit involves the ability to behave in total freedom... that is, the ability to 'metaprogram' your own persona... your own behaviour patterns etc. (like hacking into the matrix for all us nerds! ) So it seems that Neimad's path is taking him in that direction... I'm all for it! One must not forget that there are all the other Circuits to transform if you're looking for the level of 'enlightenment' that Taoists call Imortality. The Wiseman is an archetype of the next circuit (3rd and 6th), The Lover is a manifestation of the 4th (and 8th)... IMO Transforming them in sequence is the way to go... Because each transformed circuit releases energy to move onto the next one... makes me think of the spiral shape

hehe... yes I do realise that... that's why I said: I think every archetypal energy leads to the same goal, but the approach, the journey, the process is framed differently... A joker/prankster will find the ellsuive obvious completely absurd and laugh hir head off, a wiseman will philosophise about it, a warrior will fight it, a lover will fuck it... but in the end the result is pretty much the same, it's just the process that brings you there is different. I am envious in a way because at this time I dont really associate strongly with any one of these archetypes, but I jump between them... seeing the same scene from different angles... I dont have the drive and devotion that you've found in the warrior archetype, but I do have a relaxed awareness of it, and I'm enjoying it! Do you think that someone identified with the warrior archetype frames other people's behaviours as that of a warrior (or the opposite)? Do you think that a prankster does the same? For me that's facinating... dude - there's no value judgment in whatever feedback I give to people. And I'm suggesting that it's usefull not to place value judgements on what people say. IMO there is no extra effort required to notice the non-verbal aspect of someone's conversation... you do it all the time anyway... to be honest even if someone's speaking about meaningfull 'stuff' I still track their non-verbal communication, because that's where all the interesting stuff is. In fact noticing this stuff, for me, means I have to relax and let it become apparent, rather than 'looking for it'. I'm sure you already realise that I've got a great respect for you, Neimad... I'm in no way trying to be confrontational... but posts like these involve (and in a way require) some kind of emotional tension... I think the dry information contained is secondary to the emotional energy exchanged... so you cant be surprised at people's reaction, and at your own reaction to people's posts...

http://www.break.com/index/theboarderpatrol.html *freeform giggles his little heart out*

I love posts like these sometimes! No great debate - no theorising - no oppinions - just a fantastic technique which I would not have found myself! Thanks Sean (it's a really uesfull site too)

Hi ... If you want to start to learn whether you're creating the voices or you're genuinly hearing other's thoughts, then you should pay close attention to the sound of the voice! Whenever you have your own inner dialogue (such as you reading this out in your mind) listen carefully to the sound of the voice... is it your voice? what tonality do you have? is there any emotion behind the voice? etc... Just placing your attention on your internal dialogue can have great results. For example I used to do this often - I'd notice that I talk in my head in a very monotone voice (boring!)... sometimes when I had negative self-talk it would be my dad's voice telling me off and then my voice trying to get out of trouble... I had a bout of insomnia once and noticed that I continiously talked in my head, very quickly and going off on tangents... so I decided to slow down the inner dialogue... making the words s l o w e r, sounding more lethargic... yawning between words and I quickly fell asleep. So when you think you can hear other people's internal dialogue, listen out to the voice (dont worry what they're actually saying - that's not important yet) who's voice is it? what is the pace of the voice, the tone, the emotion?... if you were to close your eyes and pin-point spatially where the voice would be coming from - where would it be? What else makes it seem to you like you're hearing someone else's inner dialogue? is it a feeling? where in your body is this feeling? does it move? etc. Noticing all these small differences will allow you to firstly learn whether you're really hearing other people's dialogue and if you are, practicing these subtle directions of your attention will allow you to fine-tune your abilities. regarding influencing other's thoughts... it's the most common thing in the world! - if you've ever talked to someone you've influenced their thoughts... if you've ever been seen by someone - you've influenced their thoughts... we're constantly communicating and sending out signals (mainly non-verbal) - if someone's there to witness this, then you're bound to have affected their thoughts.

wow neimad, I know you're not appreciating feedback at the moment, but dude - if you think people don't have anything meaningful to say, I'd have to tell you that you're not getting good at listening at all! In fact if your new ways of filterning communication is making it seem that more and more people are becoming less and less meaningfull, I'd say you're getting far worse, and creating unnecessary blockages in yourself. You'd be getting 'good at listening' only when you can be fascinated and intensely curious about a 5 minute conversation on the weather... or what style of handbags are 'in' at the moment. You can learn so much about a person from the most shallow of conversations... and i can promise you that once you stop seeing them as 'meaningless' conversations, and get truly interested in the whole person (not just the sounds that are coming out of their mouth) you will find that the conversations you attract will be much more interesting.

For me the warrior path (as neimad describes it) does not resonate... for several 'reasons' (these reasons are made-up illusion-stories... maybe interesting or entertaining, but they're just stories... if you know what I mean - my simple truth is that it doesn't feel right) One reason is that a warrior has to battle... a battle pre-supposes struggle... for me the warrior path is a path of struggle with 'the matrix' or 'conditioned reality' or whatever. It involves mercilessly destroying things that stand in your way... and you can only be a warrior if you're in the matrix... because once you're out; you're both a warrior and a sorcerer and a lucid and a lover and whatever... This is in stark contrast to what I see as the path for me... rather than a path filled with destroying, dying and being reborn, I see my path as being full of transformation - from a caterpillar to a butterfly, from a seed to a plant, from an orgasm to a life-form... yes a warrior would say that at each stage of these transformations one needs to die to the old identity - but that's because s/he is a warrior and s/he is seeing the beautiful cycle that I'm seeing through a different set of filters. Again, a warrior's path is a path of struggle - it doesn't mean it's not a 'true path' or it wont get you 'there' (where?) but it is using the matrix to focus in on a specific journey... as is my path, but I choose my path to be a path of bliss and pleasure... I think the reason you're resonating with Hagar at the moment, Neimad is because from my point of view Hagar is on the warrior journey himself... I say this from his recent posts on that law of attraction film... and ofcourse the fact that he's named after a warrior I dont see why the shedding of illusions has to be a struggle - yes it may involve a lot of hard work, yes it will leave you confused and yes it may involve no work at all... in fact the pleasure in this path is to learn to stop working all together - stopping all egoic effort... which is either 'hard' or 'interesting' or 'fun' or 'exciting' - depending on how you approach it. I was thinking about the noun/verb thing and remembered that Bucky Fuller always thought of himself as a verb, not a noun - very Taoist I reckon. I thought it would be usefull to stop thinking of the matrix as the enemy out there and more like a process going on in here (points to body)... I am matrixing! I am transforming, I am freeforming

I think Sean's gotta split this thread into a new one. SEAN!! <-- (shouting face)... could you seperate this post up for us please!!

I'd like to reply to Neimad, but it has nothing to do with Andrew Cohen... maybe we should split this into another thread? (the warrior's path). I've been reading Jack Elias' book Finding True Magic, and since he's one of our new members I thought I should reference back to him. Jack mentions how he does not think of mind as a noun but a verb: minding ... because minding is a process... in the same way you could have egoing... Neimad, I think you're on the right track about one thing, and that's noticing and removing the layers of illusion that are padding and protecting you from 'NOW'... I think that using the warrior archetype at this time is the right thing for you. We both know that the warrior is also an illusion, it might be just the right illusion for you now, but be prepared to adopt a new one to develop further. You may one day discover your connection to the Joker/prankster, another time with the wiseman etc. I think of these shifts as phases, just like minding, you are now warrioring, because that is what is needed at this time, but I feel the wrong thing to do would be to start to identify with this identity and grab it and keep it still, like a noun, because then it becomes stationary (nothing is stationary in the universe, including that nothing is stationary) like an illusion. If I was in your situation, I would try to find out why it is appropriate for me to adopt this role at this time in my life. This may be a way of healing or resolving some part of yourself... or it may actually be a part of yourself that is finally being recognised... but as always the part is not you, having discovered it you need to let it dance with your other parts to help you discover other ones you've lost. I would get down to the energetics (kinesthetic experience) of this part. Make a passionate and vivid speech about the warrior's journey, but use only 'blah' as your words - where do you feel it? When I do it I can feel my liver and a connection to my heart - when I give this energy-movement a colour and take it out of my body (and turn it so it is facing me) I can communicate with it. And the communication I get from my warrior part is flashes of pictures of my ancestors, of where I was born and the deep connection that I have with them. That's why I find the "couldn't care less about my parents" thing so hard to digest. In the Huna tradition your parents and the line of ancestry is what gives a warrior hir power - it's the earthy side of power and your 'Higher Self' is the heavenly side of power and your heart and love-connection to other humans is your individual expression of power. As a warrior-kahuna, you act from your deep heart (not the organ - more the middle dan tien) supported by your ancestral chi (including the earth, and earthly-elemental cycles) and inspired by your higher self (or whatever you like to call it) from above. The warrior can attempt to kill off illusion, but in my mind this sets him into a bigger trap of his own illusion, rather than integrating the other archetypal energies that have their own stories to tell.

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who needs a real guitar when you can be a rock god with fake one!? I am joking! I'd really like to learn an instrument, but I want something unusual and cheap... havent looked into it much, but playing music is such a great way to develop your flow and focus.

It takes time to build to it (in each session) but normaly 30seconds is about right... and that's completely relaxed (i.e. not forcing, with the throat completely relaxed etc)... I have gone for up to a minute spontaneously, but I've not been able to repeat that regularly. Chanting has helped in elongating the exhale... since it's a controled exhale and also very relaxing. I think the key is to be in a relaxed, meditative trance (try Hakalau which is the technique I've been raving about in my personal practice section). Also paying attention to your dan tien rather than your lungs seems to make it rather effortless (and as a bonus you get the blissfull pulsing started down there). By the way how did that salt pipe contraption work out?

I dont find that breathing deeply and over-breathing go hand-in-hand. In my experience I can take very long, slow breaths into my abdomen, then breathe out for twice the length (with a long, comfortable pause at the end of the out-breath), and this slows me down (my heart slows, my pulse slows, my thoughts become slow and quiet etc) and I get a nice pulsing energy feeling throughout my body... The amount of oxygen I breathed in is much less than normal, but the depth of the breath is much greater than normal... i.e. I use more of my lungs but the oxygen intake to time ratio is much lower. Thanks for the links, Max... I always thought H- was the superior form of hydrogen (as a kind-of yin molecule, it bonds to free-radicals, neutralising them) but I'll give your links a thorough read-through. Have you tried the H+ water at all?

now that's a yoga class!

Yup I watched both the series of mind, body and kick ass moves (the second series was called 'kick ass miracles' was less about martial arts, more about healing and other 'alternative practices'). Really like the program - admitedly it's frivoulous entertainment, but pretty good entertainment none-the-less. The guy alternating between hard chi kung and yin practices is tha famous Tawanese master who teaches the practice of hanging weights from your genitals... if I'm not mistaken, on that episode, one of his students got up on a platform, attached 'himself' to the weight below him and lifted 300pounds!! the presenter couldnt even lift it with his hands.

agreed! oxygen is basically a free radical... if it hasn't got any infection or toxin to fight it's gonna fight your own cells... Funny you mention hydrogen, I had a dream that I should be supplementing with hydrogen, and I found this product: MegaHydrate. I've been taking it for the past week along with the oxy-powder...

If you guys are interested in oxy-powder you can check my progress in my personal practice forum. For all you UK bums here is a UK distributor for oxy powder: www.oxyshop.co.uk

wow Hagar - great stuff! I think I'm starting to understand your point much better. Again when you talk about the world, the universe and life, to me you are really talking about yourself - this is how I learn about myself and the people around me - I read what you wrote carefully, with a constant thought in the back of my mind - 'what would it be like if this was true for me?' this allows me to empathise with you, and conversely to anyone else... after I empathise, I go back into my own centre and think 'what can I learn from this?' and that's when it gets interesting. I completely agree with you on one point - most people tend to supress pain and reframe it as pleasure - creating all this illusion! I dont know if it's a cultural thing, or an individual thing, but we're programmed to constantly avoid pain - even if that means inventing some illusion to make it seem like there is no pain! and that is how blockages to expriencing the present are created. I think your advice to experience whatever it is that happens without attempting to supress, or in some way control the effect it has on you is a noble one - and is indeed one of the most important lessons for someone looking for some sort of spiritual transformation. However thaddeus made a very good point! I've met many people who (whether cultural, or individual) tend to hold on to pain! It's counter intuitive for most people, but I bet you've met several people like that. Somehow framing everything as potential pain and discomfort helps to keep their ego together. And the structure or process of that subconcious behaviour is exactly the same as when people try to hold on to pleasure. Now, if we take that structure and process and forget about the basic constituents 'pleasure' and 'pain' (they are just labels afterall) and notice that most of our experience is actually filtered through that structure and process! It may not be about pleasure and pain, it is far more likely to be the hundreds of shades of gray in between... but the fact still remains we constantly create illusion!!!! We tend to only notice the things around us that allows us to stay 'sane' (otherwise known as keeping your ego intact)... this structure/process happens at light-speed, we dont notice it - it's unconcious - but we do it all the time. And this brings us to your experience of having your back broken. And I've had a similar situation. Your mind shuts up... everything becomes clear, time stops and you are in the present - no filtering, no process, no structure, just being. Those are the moments that arise after some shock - whether the shock is extreme pain or extreme pleasure - or extreme nothing... but the point is in that moment you dont need anything, you dont look for anything, you dont see beauty, you dont see ugliness, you just see, just experience pure, filterless attention. And that is why I was saying that we live in shit - shit=illusion, but we live in it all the time - it can be good it can be bad - but only when we have the shock of falling out of the shit-plane do we experience the universe as it truly is... and that is a rare event. Your unconcious immediately recognises the value of this state and sends you off to try to re-live it... whether by doing spiritual excersises or extreme sports, or pain or pleasure... the problem is that again it's a case of grasping for something, trying to re-live some peak experience - when in fact enlightenment lies right here in front of you, between now and your next thought! As good old Will Shakespeare said: "There is nothing either good or bad, but thinking makes it so"... if you stop 'thinking' you wont feel pleasure or pain, you will just be in the now. Whether it's pleasure that stops this thinking structure/process or pain that stops it - it doesn't really matter. Because you learnt the most valuable lesson of your life through pain doesn't mean that someone else cant learn theirs through pleasure.

jumping in a little late... Very interesting reading, this thread... I think I've learnt more about the people here than I have about the 'truth', but people are far more interesting than 'truth' for me... Hagar's position is that the film is glamourising the constant urge to control the universe... because he has learnt through experience that we never really have control - all control is illusion... Sean's position seems to be that the film explains well a model (illusion) that is very usefull - and since most of us operate in illusion constantly, then why not choose your illusions so that you can have more fun? So this is my observation: you need a bit of both! Just because something is an illusion doesn't mean it's inherently evil, or is somehow in opposition to the tao etc. We all live in illusion, however much we like to think that we're free from them, no one here, imo, has demonstrated that they're free from them - that includes you hagar, me and everyone else... So let's say a young lady has been raped... no normal human in that circumstance would think 'oh well - that's life'... people always tend to attach meaning and emotion to what happened... a very common feeling for rape victims is that they brought it on themselves (and most of em havent seen this film)... they think "I shouldn't have been out at night in this part of town" - or "I shouldn't have worn these clothes" etc etc - they just constantly blame themselves for the horrific thing that happened to them... This guilt is an illusion. It can affect the victim for the rest of their life, and it generaly affects them in a detrimental manner (i.e. it limits their freedom in some way). Having studied how people tend to recover from terrible traumas I've learnt that there is a specific model (illusion) that tends to allow them to move on... I wont go into details about it - but the point is: would you rather leave this rape victim with an illusion that is detrimental or would you help them adopt a new illusion that allows them to move on and grow past this trauma? Or would you just tell her - it's all illusion, so it doesn't really matter how it makes you feel... learn to live with it? For some reason in the deeper spiritual circles illusion's got a bad reputation - yes, I do agree that if you want to really progress in your spiritual evolution then you have to transend illusion... but the thing is, that since we have the neurology that we do - we will spend most of our lives living right in the midst of illusion. Illusion is the only thing that can be controlled! and I think it's ridiculous to dogmatically denounce people who play with their illusions and I think it's ridiculous to dogmatically assert the solipsistic view that 'it's all an illusion, so why bother trying to transend it'. I'm pragmatic - if you live in a massive pile of shit - then you take that shit and build a castle out of it! rather than sitting around thinking - well it's all shit anyway, so I'm gonna try and ignore it and get enlightened, because I dont want to be associated with shit. IMO - just like in life, one's spirituality tends to move through phases... first is the accumulation phase - that means using illusion to get what you want in life - money, sexual partners, security, chi flow, push-hands skills, great flexibility etc. I think this is an important part (maybe frivolous, but important)... because once you've accumulated all this, you realise deep inside that all this accumulated stuff is just illusion... and that's when the turning point happens - this is the somewhat painfull, confusing and most exciting part of transformation - this is where you have the chance to empty yourself of all the illusion! it's hard because everything you find comfortable, true, real and important has to go! That means your deepest beliefs about spirituality, it means all the characteristics that you identify with, all your pre-conceptions, all the skill you've built up in all the areas of your life have to be let go of. P.S. Hagar, can you see how your aversion to this model is in itself indicative to your own illusions? Maybe different illusions, but imo they still are just that: illusions. Don't you think that your distaste for the film is coming from the ego? I'm in no way claiming it's a bad thing... certainly most of what you've read from me is my own self-built illusion coming from the ego. But you say that people are kidding themselves with these sorts of ideas - but arent you kidding yourself with your own ideas? I may be wrong, but the way I see it: both you and I are living in the pile of shit... I've built myself a shit-castle, you've built yourself a shit-palace and we're both sitting on our shit-thrones telling each other what is wrong with each others shit-dwellings... and maybe discussing how great it would be not to live in this pile of shit in the first place.... I think that I should use the shit - build myself a shit-plane and fly off - and when high up in the air jump out and live life falling through the moment, with no shit involved. P.P.S I hope you read the above, realising the tongue-in-cheek tone that I intended.

I found this human anatomy website recently... it's pretty cool, simple and interactive - gives you all the different body-systems (skeletal, muscular, lymphatic, nervous etc).

Love the pyramid! It's great to represent ideas in such graphical form... it's a refreshing alternative to the overly auditory digital way that rmax tend to convey their philosophy. Thinking visually tends to help you to multi-process non-linearly...

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