freeform

A recurring conversation for me too 😂 People find all kinds of strange ways to feel ‘special’… The ones that stand out for me are the people that feel special for some inner problem… some disease or mental health issue or a qi deviation. When you take out the ‘specialness’ of the affliction - it’s like pulling the rug from under them… wait you’re saying that my kundalini syndrome is just yin depletion and false heat rising as a result of habitual stress!?! And it’s not because I’ve tapped some special spiritual thing inside me?! That’s a painful thing to have to hear if your identity is somehow entwined in this affliction. Whenever self-identification is knocked back, it’s psychologically really painful. And on top of that you still have actual affliction too! That identification was a plaster that held back some inner pain or fear or feeling of inadequacy - hence the resulting anger. It’s not the person’s fault. They’re doing the best they can to ‘self-medicate’ away the feeling of some internal conflict. Once you start to see that all these self-aggrandising behaviours are rooted in a deep sense of fear or inadequacy, it’s hard to feel anything but compassion for people in the midst of it. Especially if you’ve worked through similar patterns in yourself.

Yeah you’re right. but we should be aware that because breath is such a sensitive thing and so intimately connected with the mind, any contrivance (even if useful) will create a ‘blockage’ outside of conscious awareness. For me - it’s 1% contrived breathing - 99% awareness. I would not recommend contrived breathing as a practice for months on end. Maybe for the first few minutes of an hour’s practice… maybe once in a while you spend time on stretching the lungs and diaphragm… But the aim is to free things up mechanically only to allow the awareness into the ‘blind spots’ of the breathing body… or to stretch a habitually tight diaphragm etc. [edit] - sometimes it’s like showing your body a new breathing pattern (such as reverse breathing)… so you contrive it once in a while - once the required inner process starts, the body kinda ‘gets it’ - and it will start reverse breathing by itself at just the right time, in just the right way, with no wilfulness needed. Once our awareness is fully absorbed in the breath, we don’t need contrivance at all! We’ll sit and absorb into the breath - and all these breathing patterns will come on spontaneously of their own accord - no forcing, no contriving, not even needing to decide the breathing pattern to use… everything from reverse breathing, to breath holds, to bellows breathing, to embryonic breathing happen of their own accord. You know how when you sigh and the body automatically takes a biiiig, full breath - so big and so full that it would be difficult to contrive it if you tried - yet it’s relaxed, unforced, easy, natural and pleasant - this is what happens once you’re able to absorb awareness into the breathing body. Non- contrivance is a skill in itself. Once you’re able to start absorbing your awareness into the breath, you’ll meet all the subconscious patterns and blockages stored there. It’s almost impossible not to contrive, hold or interfere with the breath in some way. It takes time and patient practice.

yes I did! That’s the other stereotypical bucket of nonsense - that effectively says “if only I combine this technology with that technology and a bit of this other technology - then it’ll be 3X more powerful!” It’s a common adolescent-level understanding of how these things work. Something I’ve been through in my younger years! The more special ingredients we throw in the stew the better it’ll be, right? The more supplements I take the higher my performance will soar! The more transmissions I get - the more I’ll evolve… The more books I read, the smarter I’ll get… Etc etc etc. The alluring thing is that it’s super self-gratifying. You feel like a kind of special Indiana Jones type character that managed to find all these disparate hidden secrets that you (and only you) can combine together for ultimate power! If we’re honest with ourselves - and genuinely strive for excellence and are prepared to continually be humbled - then we’d discover that a lot of these red flags are the result of this drive towards ‘self’ gratification. Wanting to be the special one - the clever one - the one that finds the shortcut - the originator of a brand new system - the one that people can look up to… this is at the base of what drives this sort of behaviour in my opinion. We all have this within us. It’s understandable that we’re drawn to generating status for ourselves… It’s one of the most important and powerful drives we have! It’s just that, as spiritual cultivators - we really should be able to rise above this game… at least try to! Otherwise there is no chance of attaining spirit

I don’t think we need to reach a consensus. It really depends on your teacher or tradition - just use what they use. For me, creating distinctions (rather than just focusing on similarities or points of agreement) helps to sharpen our understanding of these arts. My aim isn’t to make everyone use my definition - it’s create a point that brings to light different perspectives. When talking to most people with a passing interest in this stuff I say ‘meditative practice’… for me this term works ok. When I say meditation - generally (unless I’m mocking) I mean the state of meditative absorption. But I only really say it amongst people that understand what I mean. But that’s not so important, I don’t think

So I watched a few of Knutson’s videos - just because some friends here like him… But he just waves red flag after red flag in my opinion. In one video he explains how we must break each traditional method down to its building blocks - keep the essential and discard the unnecessary… (what every single self-appointed guru says!) In another video he talks about how when yogis talk about sensing their spine, what they’re actually sensing is the vagus nerve in front of the spine… ( I can physically wiggle each individual vertebra independent of the others… is that still my vagus nerve?) In another video he explains how magnesium is key to meditation… (it’s not - it’s key to relaxation - which is what he’s really teaching with this HRV stuff) The issue is that in my younger years, this stuff would’ve really appealed to me! using science as authority… technological shortcuts… cutting out the non-essential… friendly dude teaching simplified stuff with quick results… sign me up! But now I know just how foolish this is. By cutting out what we consider ‘non-essential’, we’re saying that we understand these things much better than the traditions that created them. The issue is that often, what we consider non-essential serves a purpose way down the causality chain - somewhere we haven’t reached yet - and now, probably never will because we’ve cut off as ‘non-essential’ the causes that will lead us there. For instance - yes if you contrive and manipulate your breath to simulate the long, relaxed breath that a meditator would have - you will get some experiences. (About 2 breaths a minute is the target in that case - not 4 to 7) They may be great experiences. They may even sound a lot like meditation. And you might even get them much quicker than simply being aware of the breath and turning off all contrivance layer by layer… You might get experiences years before someone following the traditional method! But it’s foolish to think that those attained masters at the head of these traditions didn’t realise this! Generating an inner experience does not transform you. Using contrived action will not lead you to rabbit marrow and black liver! (Sorry - and in-joke for Awaken fans ) …It won’t lead to Spirit, it won’t lead to Soul. This is the essence of spiritual practice - to allow your soul and your spirit, to (layer by layer) transform you into a ‘spiritual being’… (or whatever the buddhist equivalent would be). Incidentally - I had to spend several years ‘undoing’ the patterns built by contrived breathing practices - which at the time created some really blissful experiences. And I mean years of hard work - just to get to baseline - so I could start again from the ground up. By meddling with genuine practices that were designed specifically in the way that they were - we’re making ‘meditation’ a sort of entertainment… a mostly wholesome and generally beneficial one, yes - but not a spiritual art. And by saying that meditation is in fact this thing where we contrive our body and mind to generate pleasant experiences, we basically promote the decline of spirituality for the sake of YouTube likes. As someone who’s been in an apparently genuine tradition, Knutson should know better. —— And probably worth repeating that this doesn’t mean I think he’s a bad person. It doesn’t mean that I think he should be stopped. I believe in personal responsibility. By expressing these things in a somewhat public space and amongst people with similar interests, I’m hoping there will be some that read this and see that there’s another perspective… Its a little something to counteract the allure of ‘optimised for modern people… stripped of the non-essential’ type mentality

“That wasn’t snoring it was a super advanced mantra!”

Meditation in monasteries = a seated nap in many cases. A skill that’s not without merit I have to say

Well then he’s even more of a scoundrel than I first thought!

I think the issue is that the more we muddy terms, the less distinctions we have, the more the arts lose out. In almost all pseudo-spiritual books you get the obligatory sentence: ”ancient cultures called this prana, qi, orgone, hara, kundalini, shakti, ectoplasm, mesmerism…” etc etc. This attitude pervades - it’s ok I guess when it’s basically entertainment - but it’s a real shame that it‘s done in a more specialised arena where people actually dedicated a lot of time and effort into it. Saying something is ‘deep meditation’ when in reality it has little to do with either the state or the practice is just a sign of the devolution of the arts. You know those CSI type dramas… they’re fine, they’re entertaining… but imagine that after some time real crime scene investigators started to use terms and ideas and concept from the drama - coz you know it’s more popular with the public… For me it’s not about changing what other people say or do. It’s more about drawing a line in the sand and explicitly marking a distinction among my peers and people interested. Im not gonna be writing in letters trying to change what people say! I don’t think Shadow_self is either

Yeah - at it’s most fundamental, it’s constant, direct insight into the nature of all cause and effect. You become like a walking Yi Jing oracle

Lovely to see some discussion happening in a discussion forum by the way!

Pa Auk emphasises both Jhanna and Vipassana… each stage of Jhanna is investigated with the insight of Vipassana. At least that was what I got from my brief time there. They also go heavily into the kasinas as entry points into absorption.

One of the siddhis is wisdom Though that has a very specific definition. Its not about praising siddhis - it’s simply reminding people that they are a fact. It was never that controversial. Read about any talented cultivator and they talk about siddhi. I don’t know that much about this - so it’s probably a really bad analogy to use… But the skill of stone masons from the distant past… the ones that built all these complex structures in Egypt and Peru and so on. That knowledge has been lost. Yes we have theories - but even the most modern structures don’t come out as straight or as level or as well aligned - even with laser levels and drones and complex software… I recently had to help to repair a stone cabin - and my goodness is it hard! It’s a tiny cabin, I have access to modern tools - yet it’s still damn hard to keep the walls plumb and the floors level… Arts die out! They literally die out because people aren’t that bothered about keeping them alive. Like the proverbial frog in a pot we let things slide, we get lazy, stop striving for excellence… and little by little these things fade away into myth and legend. I don’t want that to happen to cultivation. I don’t want meditation to turn to relaxation! That would be such a shame. Don't you think?

@anshino23 got it. I’m not starting a holy war on some semantic definition. I’m making a point amongst peers I’m well aware that it’s a little controversial and maybe a tiny bit confrontational… I’ve noticed after Awaken had her way with the forum, discussion has stagnated a lot. Maybe a bit of controversy will wake us up a bit? I don’t care what anyone calls anything. Why would I!? I care about the people here - so I say what I believe! If my friend’s elderly mother told me how excited she was to start a meditation practice at the local community centre I would not be the one saying “erm excuse me but I do believe that what you’re calling ‘meditation’ is in fact nothing more than…” (said in the geekiest voice I can muster). But I’m not talking to my friend’s elderly mother here, am I? Terms get misused and watered down all the time. So be it. But amongst cultivators, I think it’s worth picking up on some of these things and talking about them, don’t you think? It’s like people mixing up ‘veins’ and ‘arteries’… who cares… but when surgeons start doing it - maybe it’s time to speak up

Id say if the your experience and teacher are not leading to actual real results....that's a far bigger problem Yeah I avoided touching on this, because it’s gonna come across like I’ve got it in for @forestofemptiness - which I don’t. Spiritual cultivation isn’t like doing a PHD. Knowledge and scripture can certainly be supporting elements to cultivation - but not the main thing. Some people need that support, some people get trapped in it. Being a monk is like an alternative lifestyle choice in countries like Burma. It’s like when young men don’t know what to do with their life, so they join the army… it’s the same sort of thing there - just that they join a monastery instead. Sometimes families send their kids to a monastery coz they can’t afford to feed them… or they want to generate some merit for the family… orphans with nowhere to go… criminals wanting to change their ways… divorcees wanting a new life… Rich dudes that want to retire… Just as most men that join the army don’t join because they want to become highly efficient killers… most people that join the monastic order don’t want to become highly cultivated meditators. It’s all a big melting pot of different people with different temperaments and different aims. Education is one of the big roles of monasteries - it goes from young kids learning to read - to what would be the equivalent of a university level education… it’s just all focused on scripture and various treatises by various abbots - that kinda thing. Our access into the Buddhist tradition as westerners generally comes from this educational ‘wing’. So yes in this scenario scriptural discussions, debates and rhetoric are an important element. That’s why we have sooooo many phd level books on Buddhism! Often the smallest role in a monastery is actual spiritual cultivation. Generally monks are picked at a young age to go and study specifically for this aim under more senior monks. Often this is the least popular and lowest status of all the roles. These groups are generally not the ones giving blessings, collecting alms or giving public discourses on dharma. They’re generally hidden in some dusty corner of the monastery and live a very strict, disciplined life. While all monks practice some form of meditation - for most it’s just one of the required chores in their day something that gets in the way of scrolling through Facebook on their smartphones. And in reality we tend not to have much access to this cultivation aspect of the tradition in the west. There’s not much to read or write about it. Most westerners wouldn’t handle the sort of routine or be interested. Buddhism is more than a spiritual practice in the east… it’s everything from school, to university, to charity, to homeless shelter to tourist attraction - and everything in between. The actual spiritual thread is thin. And it’s not what I imagined when I first tried to get to it! The tradition is massive. There are many layers to it and I think we tend to forget that in the west. If one wants to study actual Buddhist meditation at the level of actual spiritual cultivation (not just a 10 day silent retreat) - it’s not easy… and you really only get access if you put on your robes. Only then do you get into the stuff about siddhis and Jhannas and so on...

@awarenessrules - you’re really not holding back with the questions are you! Honestly I have no idea what’s closest to the original Buddha’s teachings. Lots of people will have theories - but in reality we only have a vague idea of what exactly the Buddha taught. He was around a long time ago - and there are no writings from him directly as far as I’m aware. I think that trying to stay as close to the original teachings is not necessarily the right approach anyway. That way we’re left chasing shadows of what was… All we can do is find a school where they’ve achieved a high level of spiritual attainment and go and train under them and see for ourselves. Pa Auk’s line in Burma, we’ve already discussed had some attained individuals when I went there… maybe it’s a good place to start for you? I think he’s still alive himself! It’s not an easy thing at all unfortunately. Once you’re able to tap into the transmission of a lineage, it becomes easier to tell what line is dead or corrupted and what line is still connected to ‘the source’. But that takes a degree of insight and at least a glimpse of your ‘original spirit’ - impossible as a beginner. For me personally the Buddhist path is not my path. I’m no renunciate, so I could never achieve Buddhist enlightenment. The Daoist alchemical path is what works for me. I only really study with one Burmese esoteric Buddhist teacher because my Daoist teacher told me to continue with him. Why? I don’t really know.

See, this is what I mean. This is quite a leap from an online comment to a judgment about an entire system and tradition, which I see as a pattern. You’re making quite a leap from an online comment to a judgement about an entire person yourself there, aren’t you!? I’m just teasing. I don’t mind that at all. I think that seeing patterns and discussing them makes for an interesting conversation.

If by ‘he’ you mean me - then yes, you’re quite right. In my opinion, Anapanasati isn’t meditation - it’s anapanasati. Notice how even in your description you say that ‘practicing it gives rise to…’ That I agree with. And compared to contrived, wilful breath control such as this HRV method, anapana (if taught correctly) doesn’t stand in the way of meditation arising.

I agree. Read again and you’ll see that I didn’t trash it. You just appear to have had a knee-jerk reaction to me saying it’s relaxation not meditation. Thats not trashing it. It’s simply disagreeing that it’s meditation - or that it leads to meditation. That’s all. No ill will intended

Yup there are some genuine practitioners coming from Pa Auk Sayadaw’s line. Buddhism is not my main path - however I’ve seen this being the case in both an esoteric Burmese Buddhist tradition that I’m part of as well as a Chan tradition I’m familiar with. This stuff isn’t shared with the general population of a monastery - but only in small, specialised groups where meditative practice is the focus. As weird as it may seem, the majority of monks have little interest in cultivation. It’s more of a lifestyle thing for most. In Daoist alchemical traditions siddhi obviously play an important role on the path. Generally those that get to the stage where these things are relevant have gotten past attachments … or they wouldn’t have been able to get there. Though they can still get corrupted after attainment… usually happens if they leave their teacher prematurely. There are traditions that specifically seek powers and siddhi directly… They don’t lead to spiritual cultivation and in fact create further karmic weight that keeps them trapped. The siddhi in these traditions tend to be a little different in quality to the ones that arise as a byproduct of spiritual cultivation. I steer well clear of these!

This suggests to me that they’ve lost some key aspects of the art generations ago - and are resorting to science-like factors to fill the missing pieces. Uncorrupted traditions are just as rigorous as the scientific method - and don’t require the mental models and methodologies from outside of their own tradition. This doesn’t mean that dogmatic traditionalism is the answer though. That can corrupt an art just as much…

I then qualified that I’m talking about meditation ‘as I understand it’ I’ve written a lot about what I consider meditation to be… as well as jhanna. My view is certainly not shared by the vast majority of meditators. Thats because it’s way beyond what they think is possible. For example, I’ve been taught (and shown) that attainment of each jhannic absorption, when fully realised, invariably comes with certain siddhi. Just like learning to draw invariably comes with the ability to generate a likeness of any object on paper. For my teachers, it’s very simple - if you haven’t achieved xxxx siddhi - then you haven’t achieved xxxx stage of jhanna. These siddhi are things like bilocation, changing one physical substance into another, generating visible light phenomena etc. It might sound elitist or materialistic to some but it’s just like if you can’t generate a likeness of an object on paper, then you can’t say that you’ve attained the ability to draw. You need to prove your ability to graduate from art school. These results are used as tests or assessments of one’s practice, because inner experience is generally not trusted in traditional schools. Most meditators think that these things (despite being written about over and over) are myths and allegorical legends. I believe they’ve become myths and legends because as a culture we tend to move the goal posts from something exceptionally difficult to something we can achieve with relative ease. It’s like we feel entitled to decide our own level of attainment… So generating a bright, visible light as a sign of attaining certain meditative absorption… over a few generations of lazy practitioners - turns to being able to feel tingles on your lips as a sign of meditation… or worse still - being able to imagine a bright light. I think that’s a shame. That’s why when I see a relaxation hack being taught as meditation, I like to point out that there’s a lot more to this stuff. Relaxation is great - but don’t settle for relaxation if genuine cultivation is your calling in life Meditation is a doorway to the very building blocks of reality… when they say that physical reality is fundamentally consciousness at its root - this is not metaphor or allegory… they have a good reason to believe this. Each level of meditative absorption pierces a deeper layer of consciousness and accesses a deeper layer of what we consider our reality. It’s not just about developing a calm mind and a harmonious nervous system (great as these goals are, of course). I’m not here to convince anyone of anything. I get that this is a radical thing to say in this day and age. I get that it’s unbelievable. But there are people here who benefit from hearing about how deep this stuff goes and then making up their own mind about it. There are people with great talent and drive that feel an inner pull to cultivation - but then they look at the sorry state of the spiritual world and go into finance or law or music - endeavours that are more challenging and interesting, that require rigour, dedication and excellence. There’s more to this stuff than what can be seen on the surface! It goes deeper than any other human endeavour. I think it’s worth putting that out there and letting talented, ambitious people get curious and discover for themselves if that’s what they want. The people that do well with cultivation are excited by the challenge - not overwhelmed by it.

I’m pretty sure I already qualified it as my opinion. And the same quote pretty much explains the key difference in definition. I did watch a few of his videos. I don’t have issues with HRV training for it’s intended purpose. I like his presentation actually. I suspect it’s a very good resource for people with a lot of stress. It’s just not meditation. Following his method will not result in samadhi or any of the various jhannic states. And if that is your aim - then following his method past a certain point will actually stop you being able to achieve it at all.

Yeah it’s semantics, I agree. But I think semantics are important. I think it’s worth understanding what is a stepping stone and what is a true result, no? Incidentally, concentration is also a result that can’t happen if you’re ‘doing’ some method.

Logic is useful. But just coz it's logical doesn't mean it's wise. Many of the world's big atrocities were the most 'logical' decision possible by the perpetrators. There is 'conditions' in between cause and effect... Wrong. It's not possible to 'fully comply with a teacher's guidance'. For a start, all communication is faulty to some degree. The student will undoubtedly misunderstand at least some of the guidance from their teacher. And the teacher will undoubtedly miss some feedback from their student. However communication between two living beings is still far more effective than between a human being and a text That's the power of a two way relationship. I've met people damaged by teachers... I've met people damaged by self-directed practice... I've also met people with attainment - and they have exclusively been ones that have been guided by teachers. I've never met anyone with genuine attainment who have come from self-directed practice. That's of course just my limited experience. (though over the last few decades that experience has grown to be significant). I've never seen a genuine teacher make any such a guarantee. Pretty big logical leap for a strict logician as you my friend! If an attained teacher doesn't consider you a parasite then you're not a parasite. (an unattained teacher may well unknowingly engage in a parasitic relationship as a result of some internal karmic melodrama though) A parasite is one that expects to be taught without providing value of some sort. There are many entitled people who expect this. To be fair, they don't tend to get far with a genuine teacher... (and often develop a knee-jerk dislike for teachers.) Value doesn't need to be monetary... sometimes the value you provide is your level of engagement and dedication to the practice. (Often this is far more 'expensive' than monetary value.) The value for the teacher is that their precious art is kept alive through their student.