freeform

Yeah I guess an argument can be made that as modern people we need more connection to Yin (than past generations) - so it may well be the case that without exposure to yin fields in nature we simply can’t find that quality internally.

Just to say that in my own training we don’t need pull anything in from outside. Basically following the age old rule: As above, so below. Meaning that we have a pure source of Yin qi internally. Aligning to the earth’s yin qi field can, indeed assist in tapping this internal field. Particularly in the beginning stages. In Longmen lineages there’s a strong emphasis of working with trees in preparation for alchemical practice… this also works to align oneself to the earths yin field.

I didn’t know all this stuff - but not surprised 😅 I’ve met plenty of ex sanyasins and heard plenty of messed up things… not poisonings though! When you believe you’re enlightened… and the epitome of enlightened righteousness surely petty things like morals and ethical behaviour shouldn't stand in your way Pretty familiar story. Oh but he’s so charming though!

I really like many aspects of Osho - if he just continued to cultivate instead of jumping into the teaching trap before he’s fully cooked - maybe things would have turned out better for us all.

It’s nice to see English translations under @awaken’s posts now. Just want to say that I appreciate that you took that step

Others (like some of the quoted) teach it but can’t do it… or at least lose their capacity to achieve it. The mind will subvert even the clearest teachings… and next thing you know you’re high as a kite in one of your 365 Rolls Royces philosophy without transformation is always subject to entropy

Things in these arts are taught as a system - meaning one thing builds on the previous thing. When you combine things yourself it’s like the blind leading the blind. Even if you follow one of the recommended courses online - that would be much better than making your own Frankenstein monster of a system 😄 But now you know that this is powerful stuff - so I’m sure you’ll do the right thing for you. I was sure you would. However it’s still best not to get back into internal stuff yet. Exercise and stretching are a really great place to start - and will help you immensely once you do find a system and start internal training again.

Interesting thanks. How do you access the congenital channels? Is there an alchemical approach or more of a Neigong method (no obligation to answer that of course) Yeah - for several teachers I trust that do use zifagong, the flailing around is definitely not the aim - but often happens near the beginning for younger people. When there’s a lot of yang quality to the qi, it goes straight to the nerves - and that’s when you see the wilder movements - furious shaking, sprinting, shouting, jumping, falling to the floor etc… most people get past this quickly as long as the teacher is good. For some teachers - the wilder the better - they’ll even emit qi to make the movements wilder - this is irresponsible in my opinion… I think it’s for showing off to students - but does them absolutely no good. Good teachers (in my opinion) want the process to be effective and efficient - not spectacular and sensational. One teacher has a method for tracing the mind to the energetic source of the various movements and generating a wave of Sung that transforms the expression onto a deeper level - where a more efficient level of unbinding takes place - and that looks like swaying or pulsating - or even slow qigong type movements. Every teacher that clearly developed their students past zifagong had some other method for sinking and condensing the qi. Condensing as in coming inwards rather than expressing outwards… and sinking - as in sinking to the Dantien - not just descending to the ground (or up to the heart and head - which is where it wants to go in zifagong). When the source of the spontaneous expressions are emotional in nature - that’s where the funny stuff starts happening. Some people express very physically - if you’ve ever seen spontaneous five animal frolics - that’s basically what happens. As certain energetic circuits start connecting, people will do funny hops and movements like monkeys… springy, bouncy movements like the ‘deer’… slow, heavy ‘bear’ like movements, chest opening movements like the crane etc. It’s also when the ‘organ sounds’ (similar to what Healing Tao and others teach) - but they happen spontaneously as a result of xie qi leaving. Quite amazing stuff. Some express vocally - singing, talking in tongues, humming, laughing, crying, growling etc. When the qi starts going deeper - that’s where the spontaneous mudras, static postures and mantras get going… eventually these quieten down and the student simply experiences deep stillness (often seated, standing or laying down). That’s the end of the process… stillness is the ‘goal’.

I remember that. For teachers, zifa gong is very attractive - it's easy, uncomplicated - and gives an immediate, visceral experience to students. Students are usually in awe of this because it's something completely outside of normal experience... they get to feel qi for the first time - and experience something they've never imagined is real or possible. This gives the teacher real power... so I can understand why they would want to prolong it in their students... Why would you stop something that brings in students - requires little skill and effort from you? Putting that stuff up online... well I don't know why someone would do that. I guess they must've been convinced that it's some sort of faultless, benevolent method where nothing can go wrong.

In my experience there's no set time... your body will decide for itself how long it will last. Sometimes it may well be 2hrs - other times a lot shorter. It's usually best to go along with it - not impose a certain time. Some teachers try to keep it to a short time in fact... though I think this is for when the students are mostly unsupervised in their practice. I remember one group would be practicing in a tiny little courtyard where others were doing laundry and boiling massive pots of stock the whole time... noisy, smelly, cramped... sometimes they'd start frying birds eye chillies in a huge wok - which feels just like being pepper-sprayed to everyone in the vicinity - it still worked, and the students were doing very well. So who knows... maybe a lovely glade in a forest would be nicer - but it doesn't add much in my opinion. Young and reasonably healthy people can start the spontaneous 'engine' very quickly in my experience... within a single session - especially if there are others in the group who's engines are already going - the qi field transmits that info to everyone in the group - and as long as they have a bit of qi, they'll be shaking and spazzing about in short order. If you have even a tiny bit of skill in emission (or just a lot of qi) you can start the engine off in most people immediately. This is troubling. The process has a beginning middle and end... It most certainly comes to an end within a few months or a few years at most... The Qi finally starts to become smooth and full - which allows it to move from the nerves deeper into the channel system. This is when you'll find people sitting or standing quietly - sometimes holding a mudra or chanting spontaneously. No movements... no shaking... no emotional reactions. At this point, essentially the process has come to an end. Time to go deeper with other practices. The problem is that it can be made to continue past this point. If the teacher encourages you to continue after this end point, you'll find a way to bring the qi back out to the nervous system. At this stage you're just depleting yourself. Most people that have been through the process and completed it (and stopped there) tend to be really fun, easy going people. Most of the tension and reactivity is gone - and they're humorous, not self centred, relaxed, fun to be with. The ones that continue past the end point tend to exhibit the 'adrenal fatigue' type symptoms... sullen, pale, depleted... they often have skin issues (rashes and stuff) because of the constant heat and over stimulation... they tend to be extremely sensitive to everything - their emotions are easily triggered (cry at the news or at a cute looking puppy)... they pick up 'vibes' from people... they're easily pushed out of centre by the smallest thing. They seem to find it really hard to handle life's difficulties. I remember a group that used spontaneous as their main practice... people were doing it for hours per day for decades. Senior students would be throwing up... coming up in boils and blisters... get ringing in the ears... develop issues with digestion etc etc... These reactions were treated as badges of honour. The teacher was teaching them that these reactions are negative karma clearing out of them In reality he was in effect 'boiling an empty cauldron'... lots of heat and fire - but completely depleted of all water. He was damaging his students really badly. But empty heat is still kind of exhilarating... the over-sensitivity to all sorts of influence is seen as progress... and the hypnotic nature of the spontaneous state meant that they were convinced this was all good.

The suggestion I saw was that she refuses to paste a translated version of what she says… not that she refuses to speak English - which wouldn’t be fair, obviously. The ‘harshness’ is not in disagreeing… I welcome disagreement, personally. In fact that often makes for a much more productive discussion. But I’ve seen no evidence that she has ever (in any of her interactions) made the effort to understand anything anyone else writes - yet expects it from everyone interacting with her. I don’t think it’s meanness - maybe laziness and arrogance - I’m not sure. She had never asked anyone any clarifying questions, made no attempt to understand anything about their training, their teachers, traditions etc… In the above example, (apart from calling people stupid for some reason) she’s saying that someone (me?) said that one needs to control spontaneous movements… no one said this… but why should that stop her when she’s got a ‘you’re all wrong’ point to prove? Bear in mind that I’ve spent the majority of my life dealing with people that don’t speak my language - that’s no excuse. Kindness and respect is not bound by culture or a language difference. Asking questions, giving the benefit of the doubt, making an effort to understand or be understood - I’ve seen none of that here. This is just a shitty attitude that I’m refusing to tolerate any longer. And that’s not the kind of decision I take lightly. I really appreciate and value @liminal_luke’s attempt to bridge the gap and show kindness and create some peace. But sometimes the gap is too great to be bridged. Sometimes the most skilful action is to cut ties until there’s some evidence of reciprocity in effort, kindness and respect. Until then I will continue to ignore Awaken’s posts.

I gave her the benefit of the doubt in this regard and started translating her posts… Saw that most posts were rude and disrespectful - no matter who she talked to… gave her the benefit of the doubt - hoping to see that it’s just a front with a kind nature beneath… But no - all I’ve seen is rudeness, arrogance and disrespect. Now I know - so don’t feel inclined to be inclusive in conversations. Saves me some time and effort

I don’t know the official rules of the forum - but constantly calling people ‘stupid’ and advising someone who’s got deviation issues to do two hours of zifagong wouldn’t sit well with me if I was running the forum.

Seems like all that spazzing around has made you a little angry and emotionally reactive 30 years more and maybe you’ll calm down and learn to be respectful with your fellow cultivators. Until then - I wish you the best in your cultivation - but I will no longer be giving you the benefit of the doubt… and the translate feature is going back into retirement.

I'd also add that the likelihood of causing major long-term issues from a single practice session or even a week or two of incorrect practice is unlikely in my experience (unless there's been a lot of qi emission thrown in.) Over-worrying yourself does harm too. The key is to immediately drop all internal practice (even the nice gentle mindfulness type stuff). And don't start again until you have a teacher that understands 100% what's happened to you previously as well as TCM diagnosis from a competent practitioner.

Absolutely. Though unfortunately such TCM doctors are pretty rare. We're going to be seeing a lot more deviation related issues in the coming years - and knowledgeable medical practitioners in this space are really needed.

Don’t worry - stop doing all internal practice and switch to gentle exercise instead (brisk walks, stretching, maybe a jog). Things will settle within a couple of weeks. You’ll be fine most likely

If you’re at the stage where you’re still having spontaneous movements and Zifa gong reactions - then you’re not able to generate meaningful levels of yang qi yet. When you do manage it, it’s pretty obvious what happens when you’re barefoot. No guessing required If spontaneous movements happen a lot to you, then it’s not a bad idea to touch the ground after practice to disperse pathogenic qi. and @almaxy - I would echo what @Earl Grey mentioned. Rather than collecting bits and pieces from various sources, it’s best to find a teacher or a systematic approach to Neigong training. For example, I personally would never recommend starting with ZZ as a beginner… but for some teachers that’s the very first thing you learn. Different systems handle things differently. You can’t mix and match systems - that’s a bad idea.

That’s great! You’ll get a lot out of it I’m sure. With your prior training you’ll find that you will build a ton of qi in the short time available (even without doing the Neigong practices). There’s a sensitive period at the end of that sort of retreat… most people get very excited and immediately lose all the qualities they’ve achieved as soon as they start speaking and interacting with others. Don’t get drawn into it if you can… Keep your qi sunk and carry the qualities through to your daily life is my advice.

Self electrocution (when uncontrolled yang qi rises)… internal burns and even spontaneous combustion can happen too Though the possibility of this happening is waaaay down the line for most of us - so no need to sweat it 😄

Yes - there’s a cultural thing that’s difficult to navigate. I’m definitely much more on the side of truth than of this indirect manoeuvring. I think most people are able to handle truth much better than it seems. But who am I to question these things? Teachers in Asia are usually much more honest, direct (brutally so sometimes) with Tudis or inner door students… I appreciate this far more than sugar-pills and misdirection…

Chicken or the egg situation Less mental stimulation… more stability… less compulsive, habitual reactivity - all translates to a gradual increase in inner resolve. One of the biggest benefits of silent retreats, in my opinion

Self experimentation carries risks 😅 Its also quite easy to kill yourself at the later stages of genuine internal practice too. The number of teachers that die of liver cancer is a testament to that.

Yin Qi doesn’t require electrical conductivity. It’s a field you can interact with easily without the need for electrical grounding. Simply sink the centre close to the ground - or even sit on the ground… but always have an insulating layer between your skin and the bare ground… or you’re simply dispersing the yang qi you’ve generated in your practice. I’ve seen some Neigong teachers tell certain students to ground themselves deliberately - so that they don’t build yang qi. From what I was told it’s to keep power hungry students from becoming a problem. I think it’s super unethical. I would simply cut ties with such a student… but some teachers want that paycheque… or don’t want to offend an official or something. Other teachers use electrical devices to simulate qi emission - for them it’s necessary for the person to be grounded so that they feel the electric shock. But that’s nothing to do with Qi. On rare occasions it’s necessary to dissipate too much yang qi (or some pathogenic qi) - and the grounding in that case is legitimate.

Best to not do Neigong or qigong grounded (with bare feet) as it will disperse the yang qi you generated. Outside of practice I think it’s great to be barefoot whenever comfortable