freeform

Just want to add that @awaken is quite right that awareness continues past the physical form of breathing, to the energy body, to awareness itself. However she (I think?) is very much mistaken that this method is aiming to have attention stuck in any way at all. Probably something lost in translation… ‘stability of mind’ has nothing to do with being stuck. No ‘focusing’ no ‘holding’ no ‘tension’ at all. In fact the aim is to release all mental control that you can. Secondly the main aim of the method is to enable full absorption into the ‘form’ of breathing for the purposes of transforming the breath to achieve the 5 key qualities: 1. Jing - Quiet 2. Shen - Deep 3. Yu - At Ease 4. Huan - Slow 5. Mian - Cotton Soft Past the stage of Cotton Soft, one begins to transition into the energy body… this is when the sense of self begins to disappear and the energy body moves powerfully. Then physical breath stops and other stuff happens. But that’s not the aim with this practice. If you want to take things deeper in this direction then a more meditative method is appropriate - like Xin Zhai. This method is more like Neigong than it is like meditative practice. You’ll naturally move beyond it as part of your progress in the arts.

I realise that these explanations fall short of being very helpful… But in the early stages this training is close to impossible. It’s like learning to ride a bike or to juggle… Theres only so much one can say to assist. But if you keep going - with real interest and dedication, you’ll get it eventually. The attitude is ‘I’m going to make this work for me’… rather than the passive ‘I just go through the motions and it’ll magically do good for me’. The other attitude that I found helpful is always assuming that you haven’t got it fully yet… however far along you are. Whenever I thought - ‘I finally got it!’ my teacher would show me how that’s not the case yet. For me this is actually quite motivating - but I can see how it could be demotivating for others.

Having Qi probably plays a part… but when I started with a similar practice, I didn’t have much extra qi… and the awareness did take on the fluid quality eventually. I think stability of mind is probably a major stumbling block for most people. If you’re able to keep attending unwaveringly to your nose, it really doesn’t take long for attention to start to ‘penetrate’ or soak in deeper by itself. As it does, the tissues will respond - usually with release or Song. This is what gives the fluid like sensation I believe. When you’re able to attend without the mind wavering, your awareness will condense like this. We’ve been spoiled with lots of fun, novel stimulation… so the mind gets bored quickly and seeks stimulation before it has even settled onto the object of your ‘concentration’. To get to the fluid quality shouldn’t take years at all though. It might be helpful to take a few days out as a retreat - cutting out all mental stimulation (stop consuming all media, all socialising and all stimulating food (plain rice, beans and steamed veggies instead - no salt, pepper, garlic, etc.)). This reset may be useful to get back to baseline. I’ve read about ‘dopamine detox’ online… which is similar. It’s like coming off junk food. When you’re used to junk food, simple vegetables are tasteless and unsatisfying… simply because you’re used to having an hyper-stimulating combination of fat, sugar and salt (which doesn’t exist in nature). A complete break from junk food will bring you to baseline enough that when you eat a cucumber you realise that your taste buds had been blunted to subtlety. This is when a cucumber can be the most delicious, refreshing thing ever. That is how awareness of the body should be. The body is simply no match for a great Netflix series… or a new console game… or a night at the bar with friends. Awareness of the body - compared to these stimuli - is very unsatisfactory (especially in the beginning when the body is not healthy and open enough to be a pleasant place to rest your awareness anyway). Thats why the mind is agitated, unsatisfied and keeps looking for something more pleasant or more stimulating… and so it wavers constantly.

It’s difficult for me to explain because I can’t remember what it was like beginning with this sort of method. Eventually awareness becomes like a substance. So my experience doing this practice is like this: My awareness is like a thick, viscous liquid substance that slowly suffuses into the tissues, nerves and cells - part by part by itself. The areas that are suffused feel like a huge landscape with a detailed terrain… it’s almost as if I can sense each individual nose hair… each fiber of the muscles around the ribs… When fully suffused, each breath flows through the tissues in the body like a gentle breeze… the body expands and contracts with each breath. If I stay stable and fully absorbed my awareness of the body dissipates… all that remains is an energetic pulse… Then other stuff happens But this is my experience now. The stage where the awareness becomes like a fluid was a key point. Being stable with the mind (not allowing it to wander) was an important point too. Just keep going and your questions will answer themselves. Though of course I’m happy to help if I can.

Yeah - obviously this is my personal suggestion - and Damo may well disagree… I find it very valuable to take a step back with anything I’m learning at an early stage. Yes you’re not doing the practice ‘properly’ like this - but you break things down into even smaller parts just to explore and get yourself into it. What I would suggest is to go through all of the sections each time you do it he practice… but you may want to go fast at certain points and take a lot more time at other sections that are either interesting to explore or difficult for you. Once you develop some stability of mind and start having success with the method, the real value is spending time in the fully ‘anchored’ / absorbed state that comes about at the end of the exercise when your awareness is suffused through the whole compound breathing system.

I think @Shadow_self gave a good explanation It’s like when you learning a complex movement it’s good to break it down into several smaller, simpler individual movements and then join them together. That’s what the anchoring the breath practice does. It just takes time. Your mind is seeking stimulation. And the method just isn’t stimulating enough at the beginning. Its like if you watch someone knitting - it’s boring and your mind will wander… but if you’re the one doing the knitting and you’ve gotten good enough, you get into a sort of flow with it - a kind of effortless concentration - that’s when the thoughts stop and there’s nothing but your knitting. Treat the method not as something you’re doing to get a desired result… treat the method as the desired result itself. When someone is knitting they’re into the process itself - they enjoy it… they’re not just doing it to get a sweater… in fact often when you talk to knitters they get a little sad when they finish a garment - it’s like finishing a good book. In the same way, the anchoring method (or any practice really) should be the aim in itself. You can make the practice your own by further breaking down the method and exploring. For instance you could spend a whole session suffusing your mind into the nose and sinuses. Treat it as an exploration rather than something you’re doing to get some result out of it. I seem to remember there being a turning point for me personally when I started treating practices as exploration. Slow things down, speed them up… break it up into even smaller individual parts… basically use it as a process of discovery and your mind will find it interesting enough that it doesn’t wonder. When I say break it down into smaller parts… you could for instance get your awareness into the outer edge of the nostrils… then the upper inner wall of the nostrils… then the outer sides… then the inner sides… then the lower part… then a little deeper etc etc. Do you mean that you get into a daydreamy sort of space? Do you find you’re on the verge of drifting into sleep? If that’s the case then it just takes time… your mind is used to only a couple of states of consciousness… so as it feels your mental grip relaxing it’s like your mind goes ‘oh yeah this is just like what happens when I’m falling asleep… it must be sleep time!’ So it just takes time to develop the mental ‘muscle’ to stay in a very relaxed yet focused state.

Anchoring the breath is a little different to mechanically using the belly to breathe… You can belly breathe while your qi is not anchored in your belly… I like Damo’s anchoring the breath practice - you can get a lot out of it… there’s a lot more to it than just breathing

I enjoyed Starjumper and his antics. I even bore the brunt of his manic posts at one time - but I thought he was a genuinely nice guy under the bristly exterior. There are some complete charlatans - and there are ones that can genuinely fa qi… but still fake it to conserve energy (and still make money and attract students). To be honest the majority of people that are attracted to this sort of stuff aren’t really interested in spiritual development… they just want to be special or develop superpowers - or even just genuinely interested in the weird and wonderful things that humans are capable of… But I agree with this. Its obviously dishonest, makes a mockery of these precious arts and shows a pretty dire lack of virtue along with a self-centred attitude. And I agree that it’s the wasting of one’s time that’s particularly saddening… we only have so much… and who knows how many lifetimes it took to get to a place where cultivation is even an option.

I should add that I’m not suggesting or accusing anyone in particular of this stuff. I just wanted to add this into the discussion - as it’s something I’ve come across a lot - and it’s important to realise that this stuff is 100% fakeable… and can also be 100% legit. One thing to look for in general is grounding and conductive materials… yang qi doesn’t need grounding to work… electricity does… using metal, wet towels, touching the ground - or having someone holding the other person to ground them - using conductive materials etc often means fakery (though just to confuse matters sometimes grounding is used legitimately too). What’s more obvious is the experience of receiving fa qi… a short sharp shock = electricity… a continuous current of electric sensation that takes a leisurely route through your body is usually legit (though it may well be fakeable by now - who knows).

I think it’s important add that this is my explanation according to my own training. It may well be completely different to Damo’s. So please do bear that in mind!

As a reply to both @-_sometimes and @anshino23 - the main issue, I believe (my own opinion) - is that people are addicted to stimulation. As good as it feels - and as important as you may consider it, some aspect of you doesn't want to remain sunk and anchored - it wants fun, stimulation, new stuff for the mind and the senses. Often it's this aspect that holds us back.

That's a major part of it - yes... but not everything - it's one of the ingredients. I can think of situations where you may not have any of these 'symptoms' - but still not be anchored... for instance if you're asleep - or you're just empty of awareness (many meditators) - or you've managed to use a method successfully (though as soon as you stop 'doing' the method your Qi goes back to its habitual state. Imagine there's a rubber band that connects your Qi and your LDT... the Qi and mind can go wherever they like - but as soon as any 'action' stops, they will be automatically pulled back to the DT - that's anchored. If it sinks in response to a method - then it's not anchored yet - you're still training. Yes - it will - but it won't naturally anchor there unless you have Qi. Some meditators get very good at stilling the mind quickly and Qi will often naturally sink while they're sat - yet they're still not anchored. It's still an action they have to take. You can be anchored all the time - but not sunk. So your qi and mind can move around, have emotions, solve complex sums... and then as soon as you stop, everything is pulled back to the LDT by its own action... you don't have to do anything - it's just your neutral state. They would be cycling through sunk and unsunk. If they're anchored, simply resting will automatically draw everything down to the LDT. Yes - it's a function of stability. If your mind is stable these things should be easy to stop during practice... in day to day life - of course things are different. It is a stage yes... eventually you'll be anchored to the full body at once... later down the line you'll be anchored into the central channel and its various 'sheaths'... you can even be anchored to your energy body... or your causal body... or various spiritual bodies.

Emotional reactions. If you get swept up with emotions or emotional thinking (politics is an example of that) - then that’s usually counterproductive. As you say - over thinking is the other one… Hyper-vigilance is another one. Seeking stimulation (feeling bored and wanting to end the boredom). kinda. The Jing is affected by stimulation and habitual compulsions (various addictions)… But the breath anchoring practice (along with standing and moving forms) are practices for deliberately overcoming these things and over time anchoring your Qi at your LDT.

Simple - say you sit down for some practice… before doing anything you take a few minutes to relax - where does your qi go? Where does your mind/awareness go? If it goes to the feeling of stable, physical presence (and that’s it)… if you feel a sort of weight and gentle warmth in your belly - then you’re probably anchored. If your awareness is up and out… seeking stimulation from the environment… or your mind starts to daydream or run through thoughts, ideas, events… if you feel uncomfortable, fidgety, bored and not at ease - then you’re probably unanchored. Thats probably the most basic way to be able to tell. I’m not really sure what this heatmap shows… is that blood flow? I don’t think these diagrams correlate necessarily. The way qi distributes will be different depending on your stage of training. Sorry if that unclear. Feel free to ask clarifying questions - and I’ll see if I can help

just a quick reminder that this stuff is super easy to fake. Very common trick. These devices you can buy on Aliexpress for like $10. There are many variations - with some advanced ones that are really small. They’re usually hidden on the body… in shoes… or even on the floor/within massage tables (sometimes even in the body, I’ve heard) Funny thing is that in fact it’s quite similar to real fa qi… but there are some key differences. They're even used by teachers with genuine fa qi skill - coz it doesn’t take any qi and allows them to consistently perform the trick and make money without depleting themselves.

Anchored means just that - your qi will indeed rise to your head for intellectual tasks - but it will still be anchored to the LDT - hope that makes sense. Conversely for most ‘normal’ people their qi is anchored in the head or the heart… and doing qigong effectively helps them sink their qi to dantien for a brief time. To change the point of anchoring can take time - mainly due to life… if you train for 1hr a day you’re sunk (at best) that full hour… but as soon as you’re back to normal life - the qi will rise… Sometimes there’s a tipping point when the anchoring shifts suddenly as a result of release. More often it’s a period of time that gradually changes your habitual tendencies. The key is - when you relax and don’t do anything - where does the qi go? So for that reason it takes anything between 1 month and 3yrs. As if to make it all a lot more annoying - if you try to speed up the process - this normally sends the qi upward On a retreat - with your full attention paid to training rather than the normal stimulus of life it can be quite quick. But the speed doesn’t matter, in my opinion. Just keep doing your training and it will all happen in its own time. There’s no rush (the rush will only send it back up anyway 😂)

Who needs testimonials when there are videos of the dude LEVITATING!

In regards to this - I actually think that strong Dantien based practices are generally unsuited for the ‘average’ person. They’re usually better off doing the normal stuff like exercise, healthy eating and good sleep. If they have an interest in this stuff - then simple practices that help them sink their qi and then move it gently is good for almost everyone. People underestimate how difficult it is to really sink the qi and to anchor it there (as well as the life-changing results it can have for people). But if they’re really motivated - and have a teacher - then a deeper focus on cultivating the Dantien and generating Qi is appropriate…

To be honest @Trunk - your experience of deep stagnation is quite rare… and generally the result of incorrect practice. For most people, stagnation resolves quickly in that space once qi flows. Using forceful methods (forceful reverse breathing, ‘packing’, strong focused attention, condensing, squeezing type practices) is dangerous unless you know what you’re doing… these can certainly drive stagnation deeper. But I don’t think most people are doing this sort of stuff. Actually I think the most ubiquitous issue with LDT training is the unintended bolstering of one’s lower nature… This is where Neigong practitioners start to become like coked-up Wallstreet Bros or like the classic frat boys. Basically people can become obsessed with money, power, status and sex. Its a major problem in many Neigong schools I’ve come across in Asia. I learned to avoid these types of schools - and it was a difficult lesson because even authentic, highly skilled teachers would go down this path. Whoring, boozing, obsession with money and power/influence is super common in these arts. This, in my opinion, is the biggest problem with LDT training. Its one of those subversive problems - in that it comes about very slowly, and the transition is unnoticeable… often people will make excuses and justifications… ‘boys being boys’ type of thing. But within a short space of time this aspect of their nature gets stronger and stronger - and they soon become caricatures of their former selves. It’s especially problematic for people who have a low self esteem coming into these practices.

There are many schools that get sidetracked with Zifa gong. Zifa gong occurs when Yang Qi starts moving at the ‘depth’ of the nervous system… meaning the actual nerves through the body. The Zifa gong stops when: 1 - major blockages at the depth of the nervous system have been worked out. 2 - when the density of your qi has been sufficiently developed and the qi moves deeper of its own accord. (Into the channel system) Zifa gong won’t stop if you have an emotional connection with the effects of it… it’s exhilarating to have qi flow through the nervous system - and this can become addictive. So even if qi wants to move deeper, you can certainly force it back outward to have the same exhilarating Zifa gong effect. It can be quite draining. That’s fine when it’s clearing out blockages - it’s a powerful way of clearing stagnation, bringing ‘life’ into frozen aspects of your body and energy system… But if you perpetuate this process after it’s done it’s thing - then effectively you’re using your qi for entertainment and self stimulation. Kidneys will suffer.

I’d be surprised if Damo’s book literally says “ZZ is Yin” - that’s a pretty nonsensical thing to say. Would be better if you pasted the specific sentence he used.

Yea Damo’s is good. However - I don’t believe you would get far with book info alone. I suggest learning Neigong to start with. You won’t get far in alchemy without a LOT of Qi - and Neigong is the easiest tool for building it.

The mind likes to simplify. Whenever I find my mind reaching for an “A is basically B” I can be sure that I’m oversimplifying something that shouldn’t be. The result of Jhanna and the result of alchemy is indeed similar… but Jhanna and alchemy are the two approaches by which this result is achieved. It is not the case that Jhanna creates the Dantien or any of the other alchemical attainments… There are indeed esoteric Buddhist methods that indeed are ‘the Buddhist version of alchemy’… Jhanna isn’t. From what I’ve been told - Jhanna is inaccessible to the vast majority of people in this era… most people are simply incapable of achieving it - even if they follow all the methods perfectly… even if they have great teachers. It’s similar to how most people are incapable of becoming a chess grandmaster or an Olympic power lifter etc… Alchemy in essence makes the cultivation process possible for a larger number of people. We have two ingredients - Qi and Concentration…. While Jhanna works with one ingredient - concentration… alchemy uses both Qi and concentration (some traditions only use Qi). Consciousness is so subtle and difficult to grasp that many people think that they’ve developed it - but in reality they haven’t. So many people go about thinking they’ve achieved Jhanna - but in reality they’ve achieved a very basic level of absorption. I certainly did for years! That’s just one aspect of why Jhanna is so difficult. Some people are naturally gifted with a high degree of consciousness and they do, indeed have the ability to enter Jhanna comparatively easily. But these are not ‘ordinary’ people. They were probably already considered prodigies as small children for instance. The stories of miraculous results of Jhanna meditation are not just stories. The various siddhi, miraculous events and supernatural effects are very much true and even tested for to ensure Jhanna has really been achieved. Most Buddhists I’ve talked to that are advanced in their cultivation don’t think that Jhanna is possible for householders at all. They consider long term retreat and a renunciate lifestyle necessary to be able to achieve any Jhanna. This isn’t everyone’s view of course. Some teachers teach all 8 Jhannas in a weekend seminar… it’s of course up to each individual’s discernment to evaluate what’s true

since all roads seem to lead to the non-dual teachings these days… how does the non-dual understanding see virtuous conduct. Does it play any role in cultivation?

@awaken Unfortunately there’s only so much we’re able to discuss using online translation. For something as subtle as the workings of internal alchemy, this just won’t work. Translation: