freeform

translation:

Once stillness is achieved, the Jing begins to consolidate and transform. The fist stage of physiological change is subtle. If the Jing is refined through alchemical means (which may happen spontaneously if you have a teacher or have had a transmission). The result of the refinement is a more substantial change in physiology - particularly when the jade fluid begins to flow down from the top.

In Daoism we often step back to step forward. Thats why we go ‘back’ to the body to affect the Qi… or separate Yin and Yang before merging Yin and Yang.

In my experience none of the adherents of the non-dual, no-self doctrines have been ‘there’… or even close. And I’ve met many. (But that’s just my experience of course.) It’s one of those models that can easily be manipulated by the mind and co-opted into an identity. Because of the solvent like properties of this doctrine, you can use it very creatively to entrench your self identity and weave a shield of ignorance that quickly dissolves any inner or outside attempt to investigate the reality of the situation. To be fair none of the people (from any tradition) who have implied or said implicitly that they’re enlightened have been what I consider enlightened (based on my 3 main teachers’ explanations anyway). It’s just the non-dual doctrines have been used by the modern neo-spiritual gurus - so it’s become a common teaching. Yet it’s also probably the highest teaching… Just that very very few have reached the heights where this teaching is applicable.

Yeah I agree with what you’re saying. I tend to say that these ideas are context dependent. Meaning that the term “qi” means something different depending on the context it’s being used in. The “qi” in Feng Shui means something quite particular within that context… but that particular meaning doesn’t apply in the context of Taiji. And the qi of Taiji is different to the qi of TCM. Similarly Jing sounds like a standalone thing - but it’s so multifaceted that it can mean something completely different in the context of medicine vs the context of internal alchemy… yet at the same time both these contextual understandings are just focusing on one or another facet of this multifaceted ‘thing’. What’s most important is not the concepts but in understanding what these things are as an expression of your experience in the arts you’re undertaking.

Interestingly it’s kinda the opposite in Daoism. There’s not even a word for enlightenment - or for the ‘enlightened’ quality. There are only various labels for the one that attains these things. In fact one of the attainments can be translated as ‘True Human’.

Just be polite and respectful. Its as simple as that. Sometimes the situation calls for something else - but it’s always best to have respect and kindness as the fundamental ground upon which you start any interaction. People aren’t calculators - so we must interact with them as people not as machines. Reality is also not a calculator - life is filled with contradiction and paradox… Light is both substance and insubstantial - a clear, fundamental contradiction - it doesn’t mean that one option is wrong and the other is correct. It just means things are a little more complicated than the logical mind can comprehend. The whole field of quantum mechanics arose out of the contradiction that light is both a particle and a wave.

Jing is not a physical substance. You could call it an ‘energetic substance’ - but that’s not quite right either… (though not completely wrong). The reason for the confusion is that we’re dealing with subtle stuff here. For instance you could say light is a substance… well there are photons - and they’re discreet particles, so that’s kinda right. But light is also an electromagnetic vibration with no substance… both are ‘right’. Daoists were not looking to analyse things to get to the ‘truth’ of something in the way that science aims to - it’s a lot more practical than that. It doesn’t matter how you describe light - what matters is it’s utility. In this way the Daoist arts are more like engineering… it doesn’t matter what the ‘truth’ about light is - you can still use it’s properties to create televisions. That’s known as ‘Survivorship bias’ https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Survivorship_bias Most people that experienced concentration camps died. So when you say they have a longer lifespan, you’re disregarding the fact that the vast majority - millions of people - died as a result of this sort of treatment. The ones that didn’t are extraordinary people.

This is indeed very interesting. Ive found from people I’ve talked to that the invigorating experience along with the feel-good hormones released are so compelling that people will explain away many of the issues caused. That’s terrible.

Ah yeah - that’s tough. But some things are worth it Wouldn't worry too much. You should see how much Jing is used for pregnancy and breast feeding! Still a worthwhile sacrifice for most.

I learned recently that tinnitus is a major issue for the Wim Hoff community. I was discussing Wim Hoff with someone - saying that everything he’s doing is exceptionally depleting… and that I’m surprised that people don’t have more issues with it… But I didn’t know for a fact that people don’t have issues with it… So I just googled the most common Jing depletion symptoms + Wim Hoff… Lower back pain… pain in the knees… tinnitus. All there. And tinnitus is a very common one. There’s many threads on their community forums and Reddit groups with many people complaining they got permanent tinnitus from the practice. Theres some stuff about back ache and knee pain… but not as much as I expected - I suppose these are very general issues, so the link between them and the practice wouldn’t be apparent for most people. I’d recommend against cold showers, cold plunges or anything like that unless you know what you’re doing. Its possible to do it without depleting yourself - but certainly not how Hoff teaches it.

Yeah you’re right. I actually think ‘habitual patterns’ is a better way of saying it. It’s not habits like brushing teeth that’s the problem it’s ‘automatic’ behaviour. It’s habitual, compulsive (often unconscious) action that’s a drain on Jing. For instance an extreme example of this is any sort of addiction. Including screen addiction, shopping addiction, gambling, gaming, even reading or exercise can be addictions - any compulsive habit. It also applies to the micro habits that happen from moment to moment. You feel sad - you reach for food... You always try to impress anyone that’s a bit like your dad… you habitually reference your inner monologue… You keep scrolling for stimulation… (You do all sorts of compulsive stuff for mental stimulation! Most people get into cultivation for stimulation! 😄) All the conscious and unconscious behaviours that make you act or react automatically through habit are all using up a little of your Jing… But this is more subtle stuff. No point trying to work on this when you’re regularly having late nights… compulsive sexual stimulation… drinking… smoking… watching crap on screens all day. Build good habits first - then become an unuabituated, fully alive human later!

Yes - I suppose if the lady was on fire it would be virtuous to pat out the flames Spontaneous virtue looks like normal virtue - it’s just unconditional. Its a good word - unconditional. It’s both unconditional (like parental love) and unconditioned - in that it’s not based on habitual patterns. Many people act ‘nice’ because they’re driven by fear. They want to be inoffensive and unthreatening to others. Some people are nice because they’re driven by greed. They want something in return. Some people act nice because they want to be admired or respected by others. Some do it to get sex. Some do it because that’s what they’ve always done. Much of our behaviour is driven by conditioned habitual tendencies and patterns of reacting. A sage who acts spontaneously isn’t driven to act by unconscious tendencies. A sage just acts - and the impulse for the action comes not from the conditioned aspect of self - but from a divine aspect. In this way a sage’s action is the action of the divine. Sage in Daoism usually means something specific - a Sage has a perfectly still and harmonious nature. Like a lake without ripples (this is not just the stillness of mind, but the still point that sits at the perfect balance of the 5 elemental aspects of our nature). There are 5 key virtuous qualities in Daoism (beating pregnant ladies is not one of them).

This is spot on. Though I don’t think we agree on what ‘enlightenment’ means - there’s a point where one transitions from self identification to something else - and that’s where you and the pregnant lady are the same. At this stage your actions are able to be truly ‘spontaneous’… meaning they come from something other than ‘the self’… or the acquired mind in the terminology I generally prefer. When it is true virtue, there is no correct and incorrect action - that is not a filter that is necessary any longer. All action, despite appearances, have a positive effect on the Ming or Karma of the people the sage touches. This is quite rare of course. Many people claim they’re at that stage of development because it’s a perfect cover for their selfish behaviour… This is where they make sleeping around with students and buying Rolls Royces a sort of ‘crazy wisdom’… where it’s anything but that. But the real thing does happen from time to time…

Helped make existence funnier and more beautiful than ever before

i actually think it’s a bit of a disservice describing an experience like that… it’s also difficult to put into words. What surprised me was that the state had a sort of insight into the nature of arising and passing baked in. I met a guy who described what to me sounded very much like my first samadhi - but he understood it to be enlightenment. (It’s definitely not enlightenment 😂)

Yeah - as Michael says above - we’re ordinarily only capable of what Daoists call inferior virtue. If your actions are calculated or contrived in any way… if there’s any ‘self’ in your action - then it’s not pure virtue. You may stand to let a pregnant lady take a seat on the bus - but there’s usually a background of self in such an act. A part of you feels good being seen to do a benevolent gesture… a part of you wants the thanks from the pregnant lady. Would you be kind to a person that just stole from you - or called you names? If not then there is still ‘self’ in your virtue. I’m a strong believer in being virtuous (even if it’s not perfect). In fact most traditions will have a specific code of conduct. This helps to shape one’s mind through external means. In combination with spiritual practice this helps true virtue to blossom. True virtue is indeed selfless. I would 100% agree with that

Yes - that was my impression too. Before meeting my meditation teacher I went to a few long term retreats around Burma - and they were all the standard Vipassana style retreats. Eventually I was introduced to a very small group that’s not publicly accessible. I spent some time there - their focus was on absorption - lots of it - and a lot less talking and general monk activities (no collecting alms for example - alms were brought to them… much less sweeping than other places too 😄). I also saw that lazy or unengaged people were asked to leave. The second time I visited that place I was introduced to another teacher within the group who only taught householders and had his students separated from the rest of the monks. He comes from a Weizza tradition (an esoteric Buddhist tradition in Burma). Much longer sitting sessions and a very palpable transmission from the teacher. With assistance I was able to enter Samadhi. I thought I had accessed it before - but I hadn’t according to teacher. This was very different. The Jhanna practices? End result is enlightenment. What I explained about what’s happening ‘under the hood’ is my Daoist teacher’s explanation of what should happen automatically with Jhanna type training. No visualisation involved Time and again I’ve seen that what the ‘inner door’ disciples of teachers are taught and what the other monks and students are shown is completely different. I have found that in the west the majority of what is taught has been learned in the second group. All at once yes - no breaks. Luckily when samadhi appears (or even Jhanna if you’re lucky) - body processes (including pain, tiredness, hunger etc) just don’t register at all. My last ‘test’ was around 30hrs and none of this was a problem - in fact at the end I stood up just fine… a stark difference to the much shorter sits where samadhi isn’t achieved. I assume there’s some energetic support from the teacher. Yes according to my teacher (also my Chan friends) - Jhanna absorption is rare. As I said before it’s considered that there are only a small number of people on earth who are at the level of the formless Jhannas. At least in how they interpret Jhanna. My meditation teacher is one of these few - and he’s not a normal human by any stretch of the imagination 😄 Yes - I totally agree. Much easier when there’s a common vocabulary. Unfortunately it seems the meaning of these terms will often change and shift person to person - culture to culture - century to century.

Yeah that’s a good point @Creation. I’m not sure the exact mechanics of how it works - for instance my teacher (and a few others in the group) can perfectly check ones meditation when present… but I’m not sure this works so easily on a global scale. As far as I understand once a certain Jhanna has been attained the meditator sort of pierces a vale and exists on a plane where time/space works a little different. They don’t need a picture or name or anything - they can just pinpoint the place where the meditator is and even sense the ‘flavour’ of their cultivation.

Sort of… I’d be careful saying that some internal process equals some physiological mechanism. Qi isn’t ATP… but there’s definitely crossover. I would simply say that ATP is the energy or fuel that powers various physiological processes. This is one aspect of Qi for sure - but not everything.

Is that what you took from my post? I don’t know what you do exactly - so I’m in no position to claim anything about your practice. You have no reason to defend it at all. I enjoyed reading your perspective. I have nothing to sell - and things only seem magical and mysterious until they become obvious and straightforward through experience - but they remain stubbornly difficult to explain.

Jing isn’t converted into qi in this way. A higher level of Jing as well as a better quality of Jing and the consolidation of Jing supports the production of qi. Different traditions use different means to produce qi. Some produce it in the tissues of the body. Similar to the ATP description above. For this process the Jing and the Dantien have to have certain properties. Some produce it ‘alchemically’ using the Dantien in a very different way - almost like a power reactor. For this the Dantien is built differently and the Jing has to be refined differently. Some traditions use both methods. But the idea that Jing is a substance that is converted into another substance is not quite right. It’s a little more nuanced than that. You need full Jing, but it is not ‘lost’ in the way that you think as a result of the conversion process.

Its interesting to me because the DDJ quote, in the way that I understand it - is not about people ‘out there’ - but the people ‘inside’. Meaning that the people are aspects of mind. The various internal patterns and personalities. So to translate what you mentioned above into this internal way of seeing it produces an interesting result. Who is the hidden elite ruling your mind? We don’t always know that we’re being led by a hidden aspect of ourselves. We may feel free to do what we want - but what we want is often controlled by a hidden elite - one that is ruling us from the inside. From the Daoist perspective order is a critical aspect to growth. It’s something that doesn’t sit well in the west. But if you saw the regimented nature of spiritual training in Asia, it’s pretty clear to see that order is what underpins everything. This is both on the macro and micro scale. Take a concept like Sung for example. Most people think of Sung as relaxation - which is in essence a release of any order within. The release of tension, contraction or stiffness that is holding the body in a certain way. But that’s wrong. Complete relaxation will not produce growth or change. It’ll just put you to sleep. The correct way to Sung is to actively release against a counter-balance of structure, of inner order. That’s why we have standing postures - our posture must be perfectly ordered - we release against this posture, never letting the structure go. If you get Sung right, rather than the floppy relaxation we’re familiar with, we get instead a kind of full buoyancy that fills and expands from the inside out. Order is key.

Yeah - it’s a shame because I had no idea my teacher could do this when the conversation came up - I only asked about the couple of public teachers I know and the Dalia Lama - and none of them have achieved 4th + . If there are specific teachers, all I need is a name, location and sometimes a photo. I can ask about Leigh Brassington (before people start messaging me with lots of people to check - I will only ask about maybe three. My teacher is a quiet and stern dude and I don’t want to annoy him with ‘teacher top trumps’.) Usually entering and attaining Jhanna is only ever achieved at a lengthy retreat… sometimes the transformation period after attainment means that the person is not functional for a few months to several years. For instance at the juncture between attaining the 4th and entering the 5th there’s usually a long retreat where the meditator is sat in a kind of suspended animation for weeks, months even years. (No food, no sleep, no obvious body processes like breathing or heart beating apparently) They have specific huts for this. Usually that master’s disciples need to watch over the master’s body during that period. After attaining the 3rd Jhanna usually the meditator is also asked to take a retreat because they begin to affect people around them profoundly (resulting in mental breakdowns for most people). They also produce various light based phenomena around them which can get them in trouble. So it can certainly be troublesome to be in society at this stage of one’s practice. Generally it’s only ever the Daoists at this level that return to society - people from most other traditions tend to go into isolation or monastic life. From what I understand - there are not many Daoists at this level though.

The specifics of what transformation occurs are kept quiet because often they are used as a test to see if the Jhanna has been attained. What happens on a mechanistic level is that the locus of your consciousness shifts from one ‘body’ to another… from the physical to the energetic body for instance - or from energetic to astral - or from astral to causal etc. This is the more ‘tantric’ understanding of what happens ‘under the hood’. The changes are usually physical and physiological in nature… some of the signs are ‘super normal’ - things like light or other qi-based effects and things that wouldn’t be considered physically possible. What traditions? My training in the Jhannas comes from my teacher in Burma and some info comes from a couple of friends in a Chan lineage in Asia. And of course my Daoist teacher - though he talks about it from a different perspective. Yeah - this is the common understanding - and what I’ve come across most of the time until I was introduced to a couple of closed door lineages in Asia. When you say ‘Buddhist tradition’ - the reality of this is that as a tradition, it’s extremely varied when seen first hand in the east. There is no one ‘Buddhist tradition’… The starkest difference is in what is open to the public and what is kept behind closed doors. Even then - things are very segregated. As I’m not a renunciate, my teacher withholds certain things from my training even though he’s accepted me as a disciple. From what I’ve fathomed - there are open door teachings on Jhannas and there are closed door teachings on the Jhannas - and they’re very different. Thanks. I’m due to finally meet back with my Buddhist teacher in Burma this year (though it might have to wait a bit longer). My next test is to sit in stillness for 72hrs… and if I don’t manage it then he’ll most likely stop teaching me - which is when I might be in the market for a new meditation teacher 😅