freeform

That's probably me right? I do say stuff like that all the time - so... it's definitely me Of course 'some practitioners' react to what I say without really listening to the point. Who has time for really listening and considering a layered perspective when there's a much more efficient knee jerk reaction begging to be triggered. Who doesn't love a bit of emotionally gratifying drama eh? So again... for like the 10th time... there's nothing wrong with visualization. It's fun. It can create some physiological reactions (imagine biting into a lemon - a bright yellow... tangy-smelling... mouth-puckering... super-juicy lemon wedge, bristling with acidity). Yes there's a reaction. It's just not 'cultivation'. We even have methods in my tradition that use visualization as a practice... it's used for mental training - but there's no inkling that it will result in cultivation of the spirit or the generation or movement of Qi (beyond the normal life processes). You won't achieve any sort of meditative insight with imagination. You won't build or move any meaningful level of Qi with imagination. Yes you'll stimulate the mind... yes you can affect your physiology... But that's not cultivation. Some teachers use it as a kind of training-wheel... 'imagine a ball of qi' - it kinda focuses the mind on something semi-tangible when there's nothing else there. Ok - that's understandable, I don't agree with it - but I don't ridicule it. Because I assume when there's something more tangible, visualization is dropped. But some teachers take this idea and just run with it. And their students end up imagining dragons having sex with tigers inside their belly while bagua symbols spin around them... while the big dipper is pouring divine sperm into their heads... and while the core of the earth is rising up through their hui yin and the double helix DNA shape is enveloping around their spine so on and on... And they're told that if they do this for a few weeks, they'll finally get enlightened and become immortal. Happy to be condescending about stuff like that. I'll ridicule this over and over. I'm not ridiculing the practitioners (who are being misled) I would never do that, I always support anyone who puts their time and effort into this stuff - I'm ridiculing the teachers who know full well that they never got enlightened this way - and they're still teaching this crap - I assume coz they're in too deep and need to make a living somehow.

I totally relate. I think most people come to these arts with a combination of 1. Introvert nature and 2. Needing to heal in some way. And there's an interesting thing that happens... as you do this stuff, there's a simultaneous glimmer of spirituality as well as a promise of feeding the self - and eventually there's a division in the path. It's often the people with a painful background to life that notice that faint glimmer, and notice an internal pull towards it. It's funny because there's no getting away from pain... you either get the pain of growth - or the pain of samsara. Yup - totally. In reality the majority of qigong is a very light, relaxed form of fitness. Great for releasing stress, for gently relaxing the body and mind... for releasing some of the bound up tensions that keep people in an anxious state of mind... it's great for the elderly, or the unwell. It's great for those completely out of touch with their bodies - or the chronically sedentary. The qigong used for cultivation on the other hand is really not good for the frail and stressed. It's painful, unpleasant, and hard to do... it will easily cause issues... it takes a long time to start seeing benefits - way longer than most people are prepared to stick with. Often you get worse before you get better. In reality you actually need to start with some strength, fitness and at least a reasonably healthy constitution and mental/emotional state to get anywhere with it. Eventually, yes - you do become really robust and healthy and brimming with energy - and all that good stuff - way beyond what exercise, TCM, herbs or anything else can accomplish - but - the average person doesn't really need all that. The amount of work to get there is not really worth it. Most people want to play 22 songs using 4 chords - not this. Unless of course you just love exploring this stuff - or you're pulled by the divine to walk the path.

This is the main reason people quit genuine schools. It’s the reason most quit my teacher’s system. And to be honest - it’s a pretty good reason to quit! There’s already so much to life… you need to do all the things that let you survive and even thrive in life… you’re responsible for the thriving and surviving of many other people… so being told that to get anywhere in alchemy requires at least 2 to 4hrs a day (and regular periods of much more)… and it’s decades of this work. And much of it is unpleasant and difficult and boring - of course that’s too much to ask for the vast majority of people. quitting is the most sane thing to do! go raise your kids well… help people… grow a business that creates value for others. This spiritual stuff is rarely a good choice. but equally it’s rarely a choice at all… For me it’s like it chose me… I’m ready to give up most things to pursue this weird path. I have no illusion that I’ll get much out of it… but I’m still hooked. Others would say - hey but you have all this endless energy… could function at 100% on a little sleep… feel great all the time… rarely feel anxious, stressed or down… learn complex things easily… stay completely focused and in the flow for hours… be able to turn on charm and charisma at will etc etc… they see these as ‘benefits’ that you could ‘get’. But what they don’t see is that I’ve spent thousands and thousands of hours on this… I’ve spent all my money on it… I’ve left a successful career… I’ve sold all my belongings. I’ve had to drop many relationships and friendships… I’ve let people down… I’ve sweated, bled, injured myself and been in the most excruciating pain imaginable for hours at a time… I’ve had to meet the worst parts of me… I’ve had to let go of the best parts of me… I’ve had to find out that the parts I thought were good were just selfishness masquerading as good… I’ve had to deal with going functionally blind and mute for a time… I’ve had to endure being bored with my training… repeating the same unpleasant, tedious, boring stuff day after day after day - with no improvement and no hope in sight… And still I feel like I’m a beginner - and have little hope for the level of growth required. Is that all worth having more energy? Or being able to enter some meditative state or focus well? (‘yes’ is the wrong answer here! 😂) And to be honest that’s how it should be. Spirituality should be a deep calling that compels you. Not something you choose because you like the sound of it… or you think it will fix you… or make you more xxxx (strong, content, happy). It probably won’t. Not in the way that you want. Even if it does - you’ll have to give up so much that in real terms what you ‘get out of it’ is really not worth it. Knowing that this is all true - if you’re still compelled - then go for it. Join the club of weirdos If not then go and do something good for other people. It’s less effort, it will make you happier - it will make others happier and you’ll probably have a better life doing it. And while we’re at it, I honestly think qigong is overrated for healing. I think most people would get much more benefit from a better diet and weekly dancing with friends - with maybe some regular acupuncture - than they would from hours and hours of most qigong forms.

Spot on. @Zork might be fun to have a drink with - or someone to invite to liven up a dull dinner party… but not someone to go to for nuanced insight on cultivation.

It took me about 2 to 3 thousand hours of standing in the first stance (wuji) to get it 'right'. (And that was about the average for my peers... no one had it in less than ~2000 hours) Of course I thought I had it 'right' at hour 10... then I thought I finally got it at hour 100... at hour 1000 I was certain it must be right... but each time I had only reached a plateau - and each time my teacher told me to persevere... and I would discover a whole new level of depth that was completely out of view for me previously. My teacher never spared us from eating bitter

With all due respect - it’s best you focus on your own training before giving advice on stuff you haven’t achieved and don’t understand. I only ever give advice on stuff I can do and only when someone asks… this is out of respect for those who want to learn and for the traditions that have been passed down over centuries. I’m happy to speculate and discuss stuff - but I’m clear when something is beyond my level. As someone who’s stood in wuji for many thousands of hours, I can tell you that you have no idea what you’re talking about.

Damn and I was just dusting off my crystal ball! 🔮

Actually - it’s the other way round. I don’t know if you’ve trained in Asia - but in my experience it’s very different. Firstly high level teachers will refuse to teach you… they may send you to one of their seniors or another teacher in the same tradition. There you’ll be one of the hundreds if not thousands of students. No instructions - just stand. Or just move like this. No explanation just copy and hope for the best. 60% drop out quickly. Some stick around but not get anything… a tiny minority will have some talent and begin to show signs of development. The teacher will give them some small instruction - something seemingly trivial and then wait to see if they follow the instructions correctly. If they do, they’ll get another minor instruction… and repeat that for months or years. (if they don’t follow the instructions, no more will be given) Follow all the instructions properly, and achieve the required result and eventually, you might be invited to join the circle of seniors where the real instructions are given. (This isn’t the ‘inner door’ yet) You need to prove yourself again over many months and years… and eventually you might be introduced to a high level teacher who will test you. Pass the test and you will get more instructions… you’ll have to pass a test at each level of instruction. Most people fail the test. Out of the thousands that start only one or two will ever get instructions from the high level teacher of the lineage. The majority will quit… and the rest will remain in the big group copying movements.

@Zork - it sounds to me like you’re hungry for information but you don’t actually practice what you learn? I might be wrong - but you show all the hallmarks of that. Show me your training schedule and I’ll show you what you’ll get out of your training. You’ll be surprised how often I’ve had people with decades of experience and the resulting self confidence who have achieved nothing because they haven’t even managed to sink their Qi. The ones who consider themselves advanced tend to do the worst when they come into a genuine school in my experience.

They won’t activate the Dantien - but they will build that which is required for it to activate. If that makes sense 😅 The Dantien can activate without these exercises. But having strong kidneys and the ability to sink is a huge benefit for when it does activate. When the Qi starts to move it will want to move up… and it will want to ‘burn bright’ and therefore deplete your yin. If you have the ability to sink, and have a very strong level of yin, you won’t have these problems and an active Dantien will be immediately useful for your practice. Hope that makes sense

I know - can’t argue with that - that’s why it’s ok

ok

oh ok. Yeah the majority of feelings come from what’s commonly called the Acquired Mind. It basically means every life experience, relationship, and internal condition creates an imprint on you and generates your identity - your acquired mind. All your emotions, feelings, thoughts and reactions are produced by or filtered through this combination of stuff you’ve accumulated. The acquired mind helps you navigate the world by making you react to things in an automatic way based on your life experiences. This reactivity is useful to an extent - but it is exactly what keeps your spirit hidden. It’s what stops you seeping deeper into things and experiencing things as they are. My friend’s grandma hates the internet. She watched a news item about how some elderly people got scammed on the internet. Ever since then she’s against it. She thinks it’s the downfall of mankind. My friend works online - and she hates it - keeps telling him he’s wasting his life and causing suffering in the world. Even when things are explained to her, she ignores, misunderstands and translates what she hears into something that confirms her feelings about the internet. Some feelings come from a deeper place than the acquired mind… but on their journey from the depths into consciousness they invariably meet and becomes contaminated by it. By the time they come out into the open, they’re nothing like what they started with.

And that makes you more spiritual? It might be helpful to investigate why you feel that way.

I think like many, @Indiken may be mistaking outward appearances with actual spiritual cultivation. leftover cultural conditioning from the hippy era. These people get easily drawn in by topknots and manicured false modesty. What they don’t realise is that their reactivity to materiality - possessions, money, cars or outfits is a form of inner clinging… exactly what they profess to be against - but end up mired in through aversion.

Way to demo a ‘productive’ post for us!

I didn’t examine them - felt a bit rude to start poking around in people’s bellies when you’ve just met them! 😂 And the people I met were not his most senior students - yet what they described of their training was essentially the formation of the physical Dantien. I remember Damo talking about the physical Dantien too.

Yup - I suspect there’s different definitions - which is fine. What I call an active Dantien is one that is mobilising Qi through the body. Usually happens pretty quickly for young, healthy people. It’s not a big deal, but an important step. Someone having spontaneous movements for instance has what I would call an active Dantien. I wouldn’t call it a ‘cultivated Dantien’. Obviously your teacher has a different definition for what ‘activated’ means. A reasonably cultivated Dantien becomes a physical, hard shape in the abdomen - it can vibrate, move, twist (physically)… sometimes releases currents of electric Qi when pressed (at first in your own belly, but eventually in the one pressing, when certain conditions are met). The belly goes soft and the physical ball shape disappears when the yang Qi deactivates. From what I remember Damo talked about this phenomenon somewhere too.

That’s what ‘rejuvenation’ without the cultural conditioning of younger=better looks like. (it’s a before and after photo of a guy who was in deep depression - and him again after he recovered)

I’ve met several high level teachers - none of them looked like they’re 20… I think this is our western interpretation of what ‘rejuvenated’ means. Strong, robust, flexible (mentally and physically), full of energy, a sense of presence and lots of passion and enthusiasm when required… that’s what I see as the qualities that come about through practice. Obviously looking haggard, tired, low energy and unwell is a red flag. I don’t see that in Damo though.

Active LDT is a requirement for developing the YJJ… but YJJ is a physical transformation of the body ‘muscle tendon changing’… or ‘sinew changing’ - basically the structure of these tissues is changed and the body becomes interconnected throughout. This is what is rare to see. A properly developed ‘container’ of the dantien is also rare - and goes hand in hand with the YJJ (and is usually one of the first steps). An ‘active’ Dantien - not so rare.

Its the YJJ process that is almost lost. The YJJ process leads to a lot more than Fa Qi. And fa qi (for me) is the least useful one. Regarding the fa qi phenomenon being present outside of Daoist schools - I’m sure that’s possible. I’ve heard of similar things from high level yogis. But I’ve also seen countless people using a small device that straps to your leg and creates pretty much all the same fa qi effects. Whether what you’ve found is real or not - I have no idea. Why not train with them and report back? I’d be interested to hear your experiences

Humility is the quality that comes from Laotze - but the counterbalance is Humour - which comes from Zhuangzi. Yes you’re probably a self cantered piece of shit - but we all are. Find the humour in it - rather than the blame (Blame is another self-making-tendency anyway!)

Fa Qi is not a particularly important in the grand scheme of things. I get that it’s impressive but you grow out of getting excited about stuff like that pretty quickly when around it for a while. It also happens to be pretty easy to fake - and many impressionable young men get scammed with that sort of thing.

The real method is almost lost to be honest. It's difficult, uncomfortable stuff that takes a while to achieve - and most people quit or look for the next shiny thing when things get tough. People feel triggered because their view of themselves as top dog is challenged - and they tend to bite back online and behind the backs of those they feel threatened by. I'm sure they're a lot more polite in person...