freeform

That's probably the best advice for the moment. Yeah - it's like carving out a river bed - whatever the water you give it now, whether rain, snow or spring water, they will all flow in the same way. So nothing meditative or energetic for a while. Long walks in nature are great - and so is more brisk exercise and stretching. This will help to smooth out the 'riverbed', and allow you to get back to equilibrium. What's happened is that you've gotten energy stuck in the head and heart. It could be because the practice you learned is made up, or it is taught out of context (for instance you haven't done some foundational work that would make it safe and effective) - or you've simply done it wrong (using strong intention and being forceful with your focus for instance).

Thats the ‘8 touches of Qi’. It could be that, or it could be muscles fatiguing and thus shaking. The muscles you’re using for standing are ones you’re not used to using much because you’re letting go of the big muscle groups on the ‘outside’ of the body. As a result the deeper muscles designed for keeping your body posture standing are getting more stressed through standing - and at first they tire very easily and start to shake. When Qi moves there’s other type of shaking that happens. But it’s not particularly important at this stage. You still have to work at getting the posture right, releasing, sinking your mind and so on. You’ll have many weird experiences, it’s best not to treat it all as too important.

Im afraid I don’t know any books or anything like that. I’ve worked with a pianist friend who does some Neigong training. His body is starting to connect together and we’ve been exploring how he can play ‘spontaneously’… it’s a little messy and all over the place at the moment (he’s a professional concert pianist - and a master of his craft). He did manage to connect to a layer of his central channel and managed to express it through his fingers - and it was powerfully moving to listen to - but still a bit rough. The main thing is developing the Dantien and building connection through the body… this takes a lot of standing. He also needed to do a lot of moving and releasing through the hands to release tons of tension stored there. Unfortunately this had a negative impact to his ‘normal’ playing - luckily he’s not had a professional concert since the start of the pandemic. But he says that as things are opening up he’s finding more grace and ease in his hands… and is quickly regaining his dexterity from this newfound space.

(I learned effectively the same early stages that Damo teaches (but from a different teacher from the same lineage)) The shaking is normal, yes - it’s expected - especially as you’ve only done 5 sessions. (Remember that it takes effectively thousands of hours of wuji standing to get it ‘right’ - and even then there are always refinements). As you actively release more and the deeper muscles get used to the standing, things will change. You’ll find all sorts of stuff inside you as you begin opening up energetically. Stuff you never knew was there. Being attentive to your actions and interactions with others as well as cultivating kindness, humility and a bit of humour (not taking your’self’ too seriously) is what helps a lot. Im sure Damo’s system includes stuff on ethics and processes to align the quality of your mind down the line.

Yeah - that’s what I mean - that’s totally normal and is what happens for most people in the beginning. Yes you want to avoid having a mental image. How to avoid it - start with sensation… for instance you can probably feel the pressure of your foot touching the ground… you could probably feel the texture of the sock… maybe the warmth trapped in your shoe… you can feel if your toes are spread or not… if you pay closer attention you’ll be able to feel the position of each of your joints. Is your weight more in one foot than the other? Is your weight towards the front of the foot or the back or middle? Are your hips level? Are your knees locked or bent? Are you tending some part of your body when you don’t need to be? How’s gravity interacting with your posture? This is the sort of exploration that gets your awareness into your body. When you’re moving or working, you’ll be able to feel your muscles engage, your joints open and close… you’ll feel areas of tension and areas of relaxation… you’ll feel the position of your limbs in space… the effects of gravity and so on. to start with - what people call being ‘grounded’ or centred. You basically feel calm and present. After a while you’ll feel more graceful and ‘articulate’ with how you move. A while later you’ll begin to touch a sense of flow - feeling comfortable, effortless and highly skilled in how you move. The account of ‘butcher ding’ in zhuangzi illustrates what’s possible if you can become absorbed in what you’re doing with your body. It'll be difficult and clunky at first… you’ll have to absorb into the easy parts (hands are easy to absorb your mind into) After a while you’ll be able to absorb your mind into your whole body at once. That’s when things start to feel really comfortable and flowing. You’ll get really good at what you’re doing, and the work will start to feel effortless. It also sets you up for any sort of internal practice like taiji, qigong and so on. But you have to put in the hard work of being diligent and attentive and overcoming your habitual patterns. It’s not easy. But it’s very rewarding eventually.

I would say that maybe you haven’t managed to achieve mindfulness of the body. It’s hard enough to do it whilst being still I think being mindful of your body is a better idea than your breath. But realise that it’s a pretty tough task. Treat it as an exploration - especially as you’re doing manual work… can you become aware of how you’re using your body to do the work… how you’re using muscles and placement and tendons and joints… Can you find was of being faster, more efficient, smoother, more relaxed while doing the actions? Is there redundant tension you can drop? Is there a more graceful way you can move? Are you really aware of your body or of a mental representation of your body? Can you soak your awareness directly into your tissues? Can you be aware of sensations (texture, pressure, air movement, temperature)? Give that a go. Notice your tendency to lose focus or get distracted. Treat it as an exploration. You can certainly try mantra too. Though awareness of body, I suspect would be of particular benefit for you.

While it’s good to make dinner a light meal it certainly won’t ‘mess up your energetic system entirely’. What certainly will is not eating enough… when building Qi, food is important… only eating breakfast is a recipe for speedy yin deficiency. Limiting food is helpful for during meditative training - but not any type of Neigong.

People, when mired in the drama of the self will naturally gravitate to the bits of philosophy or religion or spiritual practice that serves the aspect of self that is most 'sticky' for them. For many it's sex... so they act on everything that's to do with sex in Daoism or Tantra and conveniently ignore the rest... For some it's status - so they'll 'discover' a new method... or 'improve' a spiritual practice by combining lots of things... their intention may seem good to them - but in reality its just a way for them to make themselves more important. I think that most people are good, have good intentions and generally want the best for others. The issues tend to come about when there's additional 'power'. Whether it's internal power (extra Qi) or external power (money, fame, social status) - this extra power has the potential to fuel those aspects of ourselves that have remained dormant whilst we didn't have the extra power. The issue is that this stuff can be insidious - you don't necessarily notice it happening... you may well be healing hundreds of people with the best of intentions... then ten years down the line, after all the adulation and respect you've been getting, you find that you deserve to be paid exorbitant amounts - they're wasting their money anyway... having sex with your students is a benevolent act - they're lucky to be getting so much extra attention from you... etc etc...

I've had an experience sort of like that for a period of a couple of hours... What's difficult is that when you have these sorts of experiences they feel 'complete' in and of themselves - as in it appears as if there cannot possibly be a more complete feeling. How can something that's complete be 'even more' complete? What I experienced was quite navigatable - I felt 'one' in the sense that there was no separation between 'me' and 'not me' and everything felt connected like a single organism. I could talk and communicate easily - I could recall things and so on. But looking back, the reality is that although everything felt one and complete, it was always in relation to where my perception could reach. From what I understood of my teacher's description, what's experienced when one of the chakra fully opens is a whole different thing. There is no limit in terms of perception... As in, right now you or I could intimately feel the sense of our right thumb - its location in space, the temperature around it, the texture of the air or the surface it's touching... whether there's a breeze, or some sort of air pressure across it... Well imagine feeling a mountain you've never seen to the same level of intimacy... or the sun... or a person's identity, someone who you've never met, and who isn't even alive yet... As I understand it, that's the beginning of what my teacher called omniscience. You're able to perceive anything that ever was or ever will be perceived - intimately... as in you could literally know in an instant what my grandad looked like (having never met me or my grandad, obviously). It's all 'accurate' and not vague - it's not based on just feelings - you can get any form of information at whatever level of details you'd like from any time past, present or future... It's like your consciousness becomes one with all of consciousness - but literally, not figuratively... and it's not limited by your local perception - it's everything everywhere at once... Obviously there's a long period of adjustment - at first, as I understand it, it's almost painfully disorienting. When another chakra opens, this sort of omniscience expands from the finer immaterial realm into physicality - resulting in what you might call 'omnipotence'... which is where the weird teleportation, bilocation, walking through walls type stuff just becomes an extension of what's possible. So it may be that what your nondual teachers experience is akin to a more permanent version of what I experienced temporarily... How it happens, from my understanding is that it happens spontaneously of its own accord, as an act of sudden 'letting go'. What causes you to let go like this? It can be the qualities built through diligent practice - in this life or another... or it can be just an accident... or a near death experience... there's no 'method' or technique to make it happen... the methods or techniques just lay the groundwork for it to occur of its own accord. But from what I understand, this awakening (even if permanent) isn't the main goal of Daoism - though clearly an important stage. I know my life changed when I had a glimpse of it. The siddhis and all that stuff are a result of this awakening becoming ever more complete at different levels.

Neigong as a term is basically 'internal skill'. There is neigong for martial arts and there's neigong for spiritual development - and they are different. (there's also neigong for inserting acupuncture needles, there's neigong for writing caligraphy, there's neigong for playing music etc) The Neigong that's used to lead into spiritual growth is based on the principles of these two classics: Yi Jing Jin (the sinew changing classic) and the Xi Sui Jing (the marrow washing classic). In reality there is no manuscript that shows the original text... it has largely been passed down through apprenticeships with teachers - and occasionally written down (often with many additions and subtractions). Practically speaking these classics are focused on transforming the body and mind - on a physical and energetic level. The principles (particularly YJJ) were incorporated into various traditions - including Shaolin, various Daoist lines as well as 'internal' martial arts. It indeed is not Neidan - though the majority of effective (IMO) Neidan lineages absorbed the processes of the YJJ and XSJ into their training. They are usually considered the foundation - the 'preparatory' work that makes Neidan possible. Neidan itself is quite different - though related. The principles in the YJJ and XSJ are not specific exercises, but principles that transform the body and mind when put into action. The principles are used in countless exercises. Because they're used in different exercises and methods they change considerably... For instance if you use the principles for Taiji, then you don't really need a dantien - at least not the same dantien as you need for Neidan. The principles when applied to Taiji create a certain kind of body... the same principles used in Xing Yi or Bagua create different sorts of internal bodies. And it goes to an even more granular level - Yang Taiji uses the principles differently to Chen... and two teachers within a Chen tradition will use them slightly differently yet again. The same is true of all the more spiritually oriented and health oriented methods and traditions. That's why Neigong is not one thing. People fight over what Neigong is because they've understood it from one perspective... but in reality it's very varied. And just to set the cat among the pigeons - the true understanding of the application of YJJ and XSJ have been largely lost. Most of what you find in public is just 'dress-up'... kinda like most commercial yoga, just a bit more niche and 'culturally' focused... It's about dressing a certain way, preserving (the appearances of) tradition etc - but the real 'effectiveness' was lost many years ago, and most consider the results of such training the stuff of legends and superstition.

It’s a kind of spiritual essence - called the magical spirit… it’s spirit that is heading in the direction of manifestation rather than the unmanifest. That’s the best I can do in a nutshell

Im not actually sure - it’s not really part of the golden embryo type work - but then again my teacher taught us about it on a theoretical level - and he doesn’t normally teach anything redundant. Maybe it’s something people bump into at some point whether it’s part of the mechanics of the specific path or not? Oh as I understand it there are stages where for instance you experience oneness to a very deep level - but permanently… it’s not a meditative experience - it’s all the time, you simply can’t tell the difference between you and that rock or the ocean or that guy over there… it’s difficult to place your body in space - it’s like your experience of your toe and the sun are just as ‘personal’. When dealing with people, you become that person - you experience their full personality and karma all at once… the separation between what is you and what is not you disappears. It becomes impossible to do any work, or to relate to people normally or pay your bills and so on. Sort of akin to serious brain damage. From what I understand the transformation does settle and becomes navigable - but your experience is permanently altered. It is said that this is where some of the pretty out there siddhi start to manifest (like being in two places at once, teleporting and so on).

No - nothing like that. Just that in Reiki they believe that they’re using a universal source of energy - so it’s limitless and pure. But in reality it can be very depleting (you’re using your own Qi), and almost always transfers ‘pathogenic’ Qi between the two people.

Well - to be honest, I haven’t accessed them, so my understanding is only theoretical. Not all alchemical paths use it. The ones that work extensively with Ling and the central channel tend to be the ones that do. If you understand the central channel as a sort of leek with lots of layers - it’s your ability to penetrate through the layers into the very core that dictates if you’re able to access the chakra. And penetrating to the core is a function of meditative concentration. Different depths of concentration give access to the different layers. The sort of concentration that is beyond the majority of meditators. Actually ‘opening’ the chakra is exceptionally (and permanently) transformative in both one’s consciousness and physically. Transformative to an extent that it becomes nearly impossible to live a normal life in society. What most people think as the chakra is usually simply Wei Qi - or sometimes the acupuncture points that often correlate. The ‘true’ chakra exist on the preheaven level as far as I understand.

People love their pets - and don’t get ridiculed by them when they start pointing sword fingers at them Yeah it’s weird - but to be honest few people can move enough Qi at that stage to do much (of benefit or of harm). I’m sure just having an action they can take that shows love for their pet already has some benefits - but nothing to do with Qi emission. Strangely Reiki is different, because as a method it does generally allow people to emit some Qi pretty much straight away - and with that, there’s a bit of danger involved.

I suspect it depends on what the sinew changing method is applied towards. There are certainly weighted additions in many internal arts - taiji has the jian (as well as sabre and long spear)… bagua has the deer-horn knives. I know some teachers use weights and even scales against a wall to further train the strength of Jin (Mark Rasmus has some videos). The examples in the video (posted above) are all very much ‘external’. For a non martial application, weights have never come up in my training specifically for the Yi Jin Jing process. I’ve used a weighted vest and ankle and wrist weights for basic bodyweight exercises though… when I tried to do internal stuff with them on, the depth of release never went to the bone, but stayed on the surface - so I never found it helpful. What would be interesting to me would be some way to very incrementally dial up gravity would be fun to release into that - as I imagine song could still go deep and the separation of muscle and bone - and the resulting tension in the deep layers of fascia would be helpful. Or maybe I just miss the torturous aspect of standing practice 😬

Yeah exactly. And the difference is not just between martial and spiritual disciplines - they are different for every tradition within each respective group. So two spiritual Neigong systems will have two different wujis because they’re usually emphasising different things according to their system of progression. Yup - completely different. In alchemy you deal with various medatitive states similar to Samadhi and Jhanna - and you use the ‘energetic substance’ of those states as alchemical ingredients. In Neigong it’s really about becoming quiet, centred and calm… and developing absorption when more advanced. In Xi Sui Jing - which you could say is the ‘pinnacle’ of neigong, the distinctions between Neidan, Neigong and meditation blur a little. But this is a closely guarded part of Neigong - not what’s talked about in public. Haha - yeah sort of. It’s difficult to create simple distinctions without dumbing things down too much. Alchemy is in essence about spiritual growth - and Neigong is about what I’d call ‘internal growth’. It’s not ‘spiritual’ in itself - it prepares you for spiritual practice (or healing practice, or internal martial arts, or for ‘magic’ and esoteric stuff with spirits and things or all manner of other energetic and esoteric things - all depends on the tradition). I think that if you’re smart enough to categorise and not try to change, adapt and add stuff from different systems - then it’s fine to discuss and discover. But keep your practice to one system - if it’s a complete system, then nothing else is necessary, and if anything is potentially really problematic. Sometimes systems aren’t ‘complete’ and will require various additional factors - but deciding what needs adding or removing is best left to a teacher that has gone down that path successfully and knows what they’re doing. Not everything applies to what you’re doing - not everything is relevant. Keep that in mind and you should be ok to discuss and discover. Don’t use your body and mind as a lab rat Some Daoist lineages use them, some don’t. For the (more traditional) ones that do use them, the chakras are largely irrelevant until really quite far into the system. Theres plenty of modern new agey systems that include chakras from the start - but in reality they’re dealing with something very superficial - not ‘the real chakra’ - or at least what the older, more traditional systems would call ‘the real chakra’.

The confusion stems from this: To anyone who’s been in an alchemical tradition long enough, what Dwai is describing is consolidated qi - or an active Dantien. The confusion starts when Dwai assumes that this Qi is Dan (the elixir). It’s not - not even close. Does it mean the method of ‘growing the little fire in the oven’ wrong? No of course not. In fact it’s a prerequisite for doing anything ‘internal’. It’s just not Nei Dan - which takes things to a completely different level.

The answer is ‘yes sort of - but not quite’. In the beginning you’re getting the physical structure right… that in itself takes a while. once the structure is right (your body is in the right structural position for now) - you begin to apply internal principles - finding the Dantien, sinking the Qi, activating the Dantien and so on. The Qi will condense at the LDT and activate and begin to mobilise through the body and mind (often erratically at first and then smoothly and more powerfully once the channels start opening and mind starts to get quiet). At this stage you’ll usually have enough Qi to begin shaping the tissues and building the container. There are various methods for this using mudras, sound, breathing and other things - often under the umbrella term Dantien gong. The structure and the physical principles, the weight over the front of the food, the interaction of the yin field and so on set up the conditions for the other things to develop. One thing is built on the other. Kinda how a building is put together. Thats why it’s important to follow one system rather than integrating all sorts of principles from different systems - even if they sound complementary.

That’s probably referring to me? Of course nuance in what I say often gets lost when processed by some minds… @Cleansox got my POV about right though. Everyone has a ‘field’ at the area of the lower Dantien. You can consolidate Qi in that field. Young children naturally have Qi consolidated there - which gets dispersed by the teenage years… but it can be restored through qigong training or even transmission from a teacher. In most alchemical systems you then go further than this and ‘build’ a ‘container’ - an energetic (and even somewhat physical) vessel for further consolidating and concentrating Qi to a much greater extent - as well as generating and ‘cooking’ various alchemical ‘substances’ there. Not all traditions have this. I’ve come across both. In my experience, the traditions that don’t tend to build a Dantien aren’t concerned with alchemy or anything like that - they’re generally health focused or sometimes martial arts focused systems.

Totally agree. I also think if you really want to go deep into a system you have to learn it in person - as much as it’s possible. Online learning is fine to start

Yeah exactly - with these things it’s not the case that principles and refinements from one art will benefit another. Nothing wrong with doing internal martial arts along with the Neigong though - just best to keep the principles distinct and separate.

Yeah - and it takes a long time to open. Incremental progression over the long term is the name of the game… and just when you start getting the structure right your Zifa gong will kick in and you'll have to deal with that craziness for a while

This is usually the biggest thing to work on extensively in the beginning. It’s also very nuanced and you’ll discover there are many levels of opening in the kwa as you develop over the years.

Just to reiterate - if he says to put your weight in the front - then that’s what you should be doing. It’s a key principle in several systems that activate the Dantien extensively. Don’t adjust to minimise discomfort - the discomfort is a sign that the body is changing. You’ll need to make friends with discomfort for a couple of years. It becomes kind of pleasant actually - like the discomfort of a good workout. Don’t adjust instructions to fit anyone else’s system or understanding. If you’re doing different practices from different systems, keep them completely separate.