freeform

just the same boring ‘light at the end of a tunnel’ stuff, loud wooshing, feeling profound peace, my life replaying in front of me before getting revived. That was the subjective experience… but from someone who has insight into the energetic mechanisms at play - things are a little different. For instance the ‘tunnel’ with the light at the end is actually part of the central channel… the light is shining from the depths of the middle Dantien… I rather not talk in depth about this though.

Yeah - so the interesting part is that in my tradition, if your consciousness can indeed reach the deepest parts of the Hun fully, you’re able to get effortless insight into all aspects of the Hun soul - including all your incarnations (past and future)… all your family line’s incarnations… and the collective soul of humanity. Practically, this means that you gain access to all human knowledge from all time. Meaning that if your consciousness does extend that far, you should be able to name the birthplace of my grandad (for instance). It should be a pretty simple affair - like retrieving the name of your best friend from your memory. In my tradition, if you can’t access this, then there are indeed areas where your consciousness cannot reach. These areas, I personally call ‘unconscious’. (This is specifically tested for eventually.) I don’t really know what that means to be honest. Different traditions have different understandings. I’ve certainly come across quite a few - it’s true… but they tend to come across as assholes quite quickly, so in reality the majority of people know to avoid them. I’ve met far more people who have been damaged by neo-advaita type teachers that claim to be ‘awakened’. Including teachers like Mooji and countless similar ones. Maybe it’s the nature of satsangs that impacts those numbers, I don’t know. Whether you or I consider Mooji or anyone else awakened or not doesn’t really matter - they peddle the same nondual neo-advaita stuff that sounds credible and convincing to hundreds of thousands of people. And without a solid tradition that differentiates true attainment, anyone is free to learn the language and start getting followers.

There’s definitely a lot of cross-pollination - but it’s not as neat as what you’ve been told. The important thing to understand is that the ‘living’ lineages in Daoism are kind of hierarchical - the head is almost always an immortal or an enlightened master, who continues to ‘broadcast’ the lineage transmission and keep it alive. There are certainly scriptures, but they are not as important - what’s more important is to be taught by a teacher who has experience in what they’re teaching. Teachers are not allowed to teach those things that they have no experience of. Their experience has to be verified by someone with more experience etc. As weird as it is, one with enough ‘insight’ and ability can track the dying process and perceive what happens at the moment of death. Someone going through the death process will experience it subjectively. One who has insight can sit by a dying person and track the underlying ‘mechanics’ of what is happening. In my experience what happens in a near death experience completely matches what my teacher has explained… but it’s just from a first-person perspective.

Qi moving near the surface and stimulating the nerves

We have different definitions of unconscious. For me it’s where ones consciousness cannot reach. Specifically these are the karmic seeds hidden within the Hun - your soul. The Hun has three aspects - individual soul, family line soul and collective soul. This is where the deeper karmic seeds reside and this is how they continue through the many lifetimes. Not how it’s been explained to me. I certainly don’t have the insight to directly perceive this process in action myself - but my teacher does. At the ‘mysterious gateway’, latent karma is awoken. What happens after the awakening (after walking through the mysterious gate) is crucial. This is why it’s considered the beginning of spiritual practice in Daoism. Either you illuminate what has been laying latent and unconscious (making it ‘conscious’), allowing it to drop away… Or if you become mesmerised by the ‘light’ of awakening and consider this the end of spiritual practice, you can easily start to give expression to the karmic seeds allowing them to flower into action. Usually in ways that corrupt in a very ‘hidden’ way. At least hidden to the awakened one. Interestingly, ‘not returning’, in several Daoist traditions is said to only happen to the highest level immortals. Even the most divine beings like Jesus are on a course to return… even if it’s tens of thousands of ‘earth years’ away. Awakening at least in the northern Daoist traditions creates the possibility for one to ‘die well’ and not be ensnared by the web of the most sticky of ones karma upon transition - and therefore gives one a good chance at having a very fortunate incarnation the next time round. Which tradition is right? I guess we get to find out at some point Not many disgraced alchemists in the public eye - have you heard of any? I’ve certainly met a few dodgy types. There are plenty of awakened Moojis, Rajneeshes, Chongyams, Ram Rahims and thousands of others…

Indeed - life is a double-edged sword - with both the potential to transform one’s karma and to create a lot more. It’s also worth noting that ones who have awakened do not escape this process - in fact, they open up an avenue for karmic tendencies to arise from the unconscious. Often, if they stop their cultivation too soon, these tendencies get free reign. They get caught ‘awake at the wheel’ and end up causing untold suffering while happily residing in blissful awareness. Hence the all too familiar fallen guru archetype.

Indeed. Though to be fair much of life is on the dualistic paradigm - including you forming that sentence and typing those words. The dualistic nature we find ourselves in is seen as a precious gift in some traditions… as it affords us the ability to cultivate.

In my experience, it’s a non-duality thing. I had the tendency when I was into the non-duality teachings. The thinking is that everything is the same, everything breaks down to the same constituent parts, and ultimately forms into the neat non-dual model. The strength of it is that it’s a simple model. It’s like a powerful solvent, like taking turpentine to an intricate oil painting - however intricate the forms, whatever the myriad colours, nothing can withstand the solvent properties of the logic - and you’re able to dissolve it all into one homogenous brown blob. I had a non-dual teacher at one point. He was skilled in using the solvent properties to cut through the mind-stuff to reach the underlying state of no-separation. He lived in that state much of his time. But was he enlightened? He certainly didn’t have the qualities I’ve read about in the classics. In fact he was pushed and pulled by his karma as much as (even more so to my eye) than anyone else. He just did it with a calm, knowing smile on his face. The fact is that different traditions do things differently. Not because they’re misguided or they misunderstood the non-dual teachings - but because they are (hopefully) living lineages with a specific transmission from masters that have achieved the aims of the tradition (‘Immortality’ for instance). The non-dual teachings may well be the highest teachings one has come across, but there’s a reason why there are traditions that don’t employ their solvent qualities at every stage. Daoism is the art of transformation. We are lucky to have a lifetime where we have access to these teachings and have a Yin and Yang body and mind - and are therefore able to cultivate rather than just rest in awareness - plenty of time for that when we pass over.

Added for ease of following the discussion. Did I get it wrong? Is that what this topic is about? (just to clear things up) --- What makes you think that? I am wounded - but only by your reaction to my posts I'm honestly puzzled when people react negatively to thoughtful disagreement. I get it quite often on the forum, so clearly there's something wrong with my delivery or my etiquette. That's not what I intended. Sometimes if I don't spend much time with others, my ability to follow social etiquette suffers. (If someone has opinions about what I'm doing that's causing this, then please get in touch). Some things are better discussed - other things are better explored. It's more to do with the very earliest of all Daoist principles (the He-Tu, Luo-Shu and the Yi Jing)

Indeed. Much more worthwhile approach. Ok I see. it's seen as one of the endless phenomena and manifestations arising in awareness from your understanding. That's not quite how it's seen in Daoist traditions. The body is a microcosm - your body is a reflection of your Spirit (along with everything that obscures it). Your liver might be a useful physical organ in the body, but it's also the quality of upwards movement in your Qi field, the emotional quality of anger/frustration/motivation and even the triple-aspect of your soul that transmigrates and connects your soul to the souls of your parents and of humanity as a whole. That's why 'light shows' (as Cleansox puts it) form such a prominent aspect of this tradition... Once spirit is transformed, the body is too - there's no way for it not to be.

I'm not disagreeing because you've stepped on anyone's toes - I'm disagreeing because you're missing something profound, and leading others down that path. Which is fine. But a counter-view is also helpful to those that are keen to dive deep. No - precisely. However both non-dual and Buddhist views and understandings are creeping in. They may well have value and validity within their own sphere, but when applied to Daoism, they tend to obfuscate the tradition and degrade the already precariously nuanced understandings.

But it’s not separate from it, right? It’s a continuation of what you call awareness… Yup - completely agree. The point is that this realisation is seen as the initial step into spiritual practice in the Daoist alchemical arts. Once the realisation is achieved - then begins true spiritual practice. Anything before is preparatory. The foundational levels in alchemy are used to support the achieving of this realisation… what could be deemed crossing the ‘mysterious gate’. Once it is crossed, then spiritual practice begins.

I’m afraid you don’t quite understand the meaning of yin and yang from a Daoist spiritual context. This is not the labelling of phenomena or recognising and comparing qualities. Emptiness is not what transcends Yin and Yang. Yin and Yang go a lot deeper than what is being talked about in the open. When looked at from the ‘non-dual’ mindset, they seem to neatly fall into a predetermined niche within that model - but Yin and Yang do not occupy the same niche within Daoist alchemical traditions - not even close.

Funny enough - it’s only when your mind is quiet and empty that you can begin to discern yin and yang. Before that you’re just dealing with downstream permutations. The 10,000 things.

Nope. But since it’s question time. What then is the body? Does it exist apart from this “mind”?

I wonder why body is still characterised as being separate from mind? Thats not far from what many Daoists would say. Except they don’t see the liver as discreet and separate from the mind, the body, even the divine Spirit… they see it as a physical manifestation of a certain spectrum of ‘the light’ of Spirit as it refracts into being in our physical realm.

Yup ZZ will amplify the conditions you create in your body and mind. Particularly any ‘rising’ and heating conditions - as Qi loves to move up - and the extra pressure from ZZ will only fuel the upwards movement. Be careful with staying too long on the ‘cool’ diet while doing qigong or ZZ - it will create stagnation. Avoid Cold and Hot foods altogether. When you do ZZ are you mostly ‘embracing the tree’? Or do you have a posture with arms low? I would suggest focusing on the arms low position - that’s where all the principles should be built… use that to release your mind and your breathing until they both soak down into your lower body. Takes a long time. let the Qi concentrate in the LDT and begin to shape it - also takes long Once the LDT is formed, Qi will naturally descend, as it will be attracted to the magnetic pull of your ldt. Make sure to add a lot of stretching and movement to your routine to get that dampness sorted.

Abandoning the raft before one has even built it is a big mistake. Everything in its own time.

I really need to learn from your methods of avoiding circular conversations 😂

I understand that that’s what you were thinking - but again, from my experience, that’s wrong. That’s why, I’m afraid we don’t completely agree. There is no causal relationship between semen retention and jing consolidation. And in fact semen retention can have exactly the opposite effect - Jing dispersal. This can have the same effect even if your emotions and mind are ‘in balance’ as you say. However, there is a conditional relationship - meaning that if you’re obsessively ejaculating (or even having orgasms without it), then that makes consolidation impossible. There is the same conditional relationship between over-work, stress, too much emotional turmoil, eating too little etc etc. This is about strengthening the body as a metaphor for consolidating the Jing?

It depends. There are causes, there are conditions - and there are effects. The cause can be the same - but the conditions will dictate the actual effect. The condition is who you are. For the majority of people the only effect will be an increase in hormones... which actually drives a dispersal and further leakage of Jing. In alchemical traditions, one of the basic signs of full, consolidated Jing is not being driven by base desires. (this is different to the medical context, where healthy sex drive, teeth that don't fall out and lack of wet dreams, feeble legs and painful back are a sign of decent-enough jing) The result of semen retention for most people is exactly the opposite to what we're trying to achieve in alchemy - horniness, lust, an increase in the drive to be dominant, to make a display of oneself in front of others etc. The standard elevated testosterone stuff. This is actually a sign of the dispersal of Jing. Force celibacy long-term without methods to consolidate the Jing, but then repress the base desires - then the effect is the archetypal perverted priest. This is called 'muddying the waters'. It's a well known issue. Muddy the waters through lust and prolonged celibacy, but without the repression - and instead push Qi up to the heart and the head (in a mistaken attempt to turn jing into qi and shen) - then (if you actually have any Qi) you'll end up with the classic deviation called Poison Fire Corrupts The Heart. Again - the information available on jing outside of the inner-door circles of genuine lineages is very basic. Jing is by far the most complex of the 3 treasures. Far more complex than Qi (with all the stems and branches, channels, phases etc)

You didn't say those exact words... What you did say is: This is what I was reacting to. Semen doesn't transform into 'energy' or Qi (I guess it has some calories to it, so maybe you could get a bit of energy from consuming enough of it). This is just the kind of misunderstanding that leads to this sort of stuff:

Often it’s well intentioned - sadly. It’s just based on misunderstanding and a genuine desire to take part in these arts. In a culture that has thousands of years of history that relate to these arts, it makes sense that it permeates the cultural consciousness. Sometimes people want to access these things, but have no avenue - so they read books and classical texts and it says something about a bright white light - so they do the only logical thing available to them and imagine a bright white light… then they teach this to others. Or they read about Jing and it’s connection to sexual fluids and they make the most logical leap - more semen = more Jing. Next thing you know, they’re sucking off strangers to access the Dao 😅 The worst, in my opinion, is when a school has partial methods. When they get it half right. This can be dangerous - it breeds cult-like schools, and can mix genuine methods with made up stuff - and result in all kinds of weirdness.

You’re not their target demographic it seems. I’ll see if I can find the name. It was discussed here on the forum a decade or more ago. Edit: you may well be the target victim demographic though! 😂

The lungs are the interface between the mind and the body. Any holding, controlling, forcing you do will impact your mind. This is acceptable in some circumstances - for example when learning a method, or trying to achieve a short term aim like physically stretching the lungs for example. But forced breath holding over a long period, as a main practice will invariably affect the mind and will close off the doorway to any spiritual development. And just as a clue - if you regulate your mind correctly - it will also affect the breathing. Generate stability and stillness - and the breath will stop of its own accord.