freeform

Precisely. What tends to happen is people place importance on the expression, rather than tracing their way to the root (mostly because they don’t have the methods). So they invent their own methods and you get stuff like contrived breath holding as a main practice. And you get schools that get obsessed with sperm. I seem to remember one school that teaches older women to suck off as many young men as possible in order to swallow their sperm as a method to generate Jing.

The issue I wanted to raise is adding breath-holding to an existing method that doesn’t include breath holding. If it’s part of a method you’re following, then follow the method - your health and well-being is then your teacher’s responsibility. If you want my opinion on how useful active breath holding is - my opinion is that when it’s contrived it is almost always problematic in the long term. Breath holding, squeezing and pressurising is part of many modern systems in Asia, and I remember many practitioners being treated at my teacher’s clinic that ran into serious problems with it - then again, these guys were generally slightly obsessive with their level of practice - and this was not from yogic systems, they may have safer methods. These are adaptations from martial Neigong systems. I’ve briefly trained with several teachers that use it… from my experience they don’t lead anywhere beyond breaking bricks or temporarily squeezing out Qi ‘experiences’. (You either squeeze what little toothpaste you have out of the tube, or you create so much toothpaste that it naturally overflows constantly. One leads to spiritual practice, the other leads to fun performances and sometimes organ failure…) Regarding the Kunlun method, Max himself explained to me that the method you’re talking about (Red Sun, right?) is draining and should only be done a few times a year. Breath cessation naturally happens by itself once the beginnings of embryonic breathing are underway - there is no holding, it’s hard to say if you’re physically breathing or not.

It’s different when it’s your own will putting structure into place - rather than having it imposed on you. Perfect - see if you can add some stretching or joint rotations or something like that into this routine. Creative self expression is great - but it must be tempered by the development of skill. This is why I suggest following a course that builds your skill over time. So just to summarise my suggestions: - Develop routine and structure your days - Get your attention out of self analysis and onto something outside of yourself. - Move and exercise your body gently. - Build skill in something you enjoy. - Surf the edge of your comfort zone in all you do (the edge always moves).

Haha - I’m very much against vagueness and ambiguity and creative ‘this is a bit like that’ in these arts… So when physical fitness = alchemy… and sperm = jing… at that point I just:

What do you mean specifically by closed heart? And what specifically is the issue around timing? Is this what an open heart would mean for you? Is this what you mean by timing? So I would actually suggest being very moderate with meditation for now. Sitting and letting things calm down and settle naturally for 30 minutes is great. (Do things settle? Or do you get agitated?) Secondly I’d suggest getting physical. I know you’re not in the most robust health at the moment, so start gentle. Combine it with with walks out in nature… maybe walk briskly to a nice spot, then take some time to do some squats, stretching, mobility exercises, or even a gentle jog - whatever works for you - but always aiming to be at the edge of your comfort level - never pushing way beyond or languishing well within your comfort barriers. If you can make it very regular, that’s even better. For instance if you can, take your walk early in the morning, every morning, at the same time - that would be the best case scenario. Similarly, do your seated practice in the evening at a set time before bed. Make your sleep and wake times regular. This regularity sounds boring and possibly stifling spontaneity - but it’s something your body craves, and you will find a whole new level of freedom and appreciation when you settle into a regular rhythm. Thirdly, get your mind outside of yourself. Find something you can do that isn’t focused on yourself - something that doesn’t require constant self-analysis. You seem like you might be quite creative - maybe get good at playing an instrument or drawing/painting - something like that. Something that requires developing your skill. The way to do this is in a structured way - such as by following online lessons. You want to get better at your chosen endeavour, not just enjoy the doing of it (though that’s also important). There needs to be a bit of pressure and a bit of difficulty - not just coasting. I know this isn't quite the ‘spiritual’ perspectives you might be looking for - but to surrender, to let go, to stop reactive craving and aversion, you must develop a steady foundation first - you must build some strength to be able to release.

For me, disagreement isn't conflict. It's not something to protect yourself from or feel offended by. Make your case for your position and evaluate the other people's positions. You are not your opinions or your understanding - these are just thoughts and mental constructs that will always grow and change anyway. It's not 'kind and compassionate' to agree with others. Just as it's not unkind to disagree. The sage is ruthless in treating 'the people' (meaning thoughts) as straw dogs. This is all to say that my disagreement isn't a judgement against you in anyway. I'm glad you're here, sharing things - and you are valued... If I didn't see something worthy in you or what you're saying, I would not be replying. If I did not feel that I could contribute something worthy to you or to others reading here, I would not be contributing.

I know you're asking Virtue, but for me the main error around breath holding is this: and this: Breath holding is not the 'secret key ingredient to alchemy'... Just follow the methods from your teachers - if there's breath holding in the method, then do that... if there's no breath holding, then don't do that. Similarly the issue around 'jing is basically xxxx': There's a reason they call it Jing - and not 'semen' or 'physical body'. While I appreciate that you're trying to find common ground with what people say, your way of agreeing is unhelpful in this context. It's along the lines of: You: "It's 1" Someone else: "actually, it's 2" You: "Well they're both numbers, and there are two 1's in a 2 - so we agree" This is fine if you're discussing your favourite tv programs or music or your tastes in food... But with something like internal arts methods, there is a definite correct and incorrect... and getting things incorrect can not only waste people's time, but actually be dangerous. That's why it's not helpful to blur distinctions and go 'meta' just to reach a common ground. It allows misunderstandings to creep in - that then go on to erode the art, and potentially to damage practitioners. Genuine masters teach things in the way that they do for a reason. It's called 'jing' not because they're stupid and didn't realise they could've cut out all that hassle and just simplified it to say 'sperm' or 'physical body'... I personally think It's best to defer to expertise - and to respect the fact that these ancient traditions have passed things down in a certain way because that's the best, most efficient way to do it. This stuff is not like your taste in music - and is not a case of "everyone has their own opinion"... just as you'd hope a surgeon fresh out of medical school isn't using her own opinion on how a liver transplant should be carried out... "The liver is basically cat food... so if I just..."

I’m afraid you’re still stuck on the ‘manifestations’ of jing - and therefore missing what jing really is. Like a tv technician trying to work out the plot of a movie in an attempt to fix the tv. The understanding of jing in the west is a very very basic ‘birds and the bees’ type model of how it works. Just as the reality of the full depth of the reproductive process is very different to the birds and the bees explanation, I can assure you that in genuine lineage based systems jing is not thought of as ‘basically semen’ or ‘basically blood’ or ‘basically’ anything… just as your doctor when treating you doesn’t think of you as just basically a body. There is far more to jing than what you’ve been taught. And if you’re the curious type that should be good news. Because while too much sexual activity or chronic heavy bleeding may well be a big drain on your jing - this is just the ‘medical’ understanding for normal, uncultivated people… when ‘sealing leakages’ for cultivators, the physical is just the start… in reality, the main ‘sealing’ is something quite different, and is based on your mind rather than your bodily juices. If you focus simply on the physical, then whatever you accumulate is ‘leaked out’ and dispersed on the non-physical.

When you don’t understand the underlying process and mechanics of alchemy, you might think that breath holding is the key, because it will create an ‘experience’… what it does however is just drive Qi upward in the body - this will certainly create a strong, tangible experience - but it’s the exact opposite of what we want to achieve. Its the same with hyperventilating. Creates an experience - feels ‘powerful’ - but it does the exact opposite thing to what we’d like to achieve in alchemy. Over time breath holding while standing or doing qigong movements will create stagnation in the diaphragm, depletion in the kidneys and cause the Qi to get stuck in the upper body - causing a constant fight or flight situation in the body. Its fine if you want to give that a go for yourself - but advising other people that you think this is the ‘secret’ to making alchemy work is irresponsible. There is a point in time (like @Earl Grey mentioned) where the physical breath stops of its own accord. There is no ‘holding’ of any kind in that situation. So is your blood, your tears, your endocrine secretions, your cerebro-spinal fluid… these are all the physical byproducts of jing. They aren’t jing. That’s extremely important to understand. An apple and an apple tree are two different things. By mixing them up or thinking ‘they’re basically the same thing anyway’ - you will end up watering apples and eating tree branches.

Qigong is indeed quite difficult and uncomfortable when done in a way that’s designed to create internal ‘growth’. But it’s not because of breath holding. Breath holding isn’t a part of the majority of traditional qigong or Neigong systems I’ve come across. Qigong becomes difficult when your Qi is mobilised and you’re able to use your ‘internal body’ to do the movements. That’s where even pleasant relaxing looking movements feel like doing heavy weight reps. The puddles of sweat under genuine qigong practitioners are the result of the movements of the ‘internal body’. Unless breath holding is specifically a method in your system, please don’t attempt to stand and hold your breath. Or add it to another system you’re practicing. Breath locks from the Yogic approaches are generally incompatible with Qigong and Neigong systems… they do things a little differently. Oh and Jing is not sperm

i find this stuff fascinating - I just don’t have the skill to explain it in an easy to understand, elegant way

Haha - well my teacher teaches 9… and 72. But it doesn’t really matter so much. Whilst anything can be explained in terms of the hexagrams, my teacher primarily uses the Yi Jing to describe change, rather than stable things… sorry I can’t be much less cryptic than that 😅

I re-read it and it sounded a bit chaotic and confusing 😅 But I’m glad you made at least some sense of it. The different contexts kinda follows the different ‘bodies’ and the corresponding ‘realms’ that they exist in… most of the information available on Daoism is in regards to your physical and energetic bodies… with the soul, we’re talking about some of the higher bodies. The Shen, Yi and Zhi are not aspects of the soul as such - but the Zhi connects you to physicality - to Jing and Ming… but upon death it dissolves. The Shen is like a lake that reflects the Dao - or at least is capable of it - if it can become still enough… But it dissolves back into heaven upon death. The Yi - as you say doesn’t have much of its own function except in how it anchors and relates with the other spirits. It also dissolves upon death. The impetus for reincarnation is on a different, higher realm than the soul. You can break the bodies and their relevant realms into 3: heavenly, earthly and human (and they are subdivided further in my tradition). The soul is in one of the higher ‘human’ realms… the soul is in essence individuated - (though the Hun also has a connection to all human souls and all your past and future incarnations.) The impetus to incarnate or reincarnate happens in one of the heavenly realms… (The original spirit which is not individuated in the same way as the soul also exists within these higher realms.) Yes exactly

Not pulling any punches today! It's a good question. You're already aware that everything in these models is contextual - but it's worht repeating, because it's so important to understand the Daoist way of thinking. For instance the 'phase' model - with its creative and destructive cycles is designed for a specific context... --- What I'm talking about here is a slightly deeper, more alchemical model. One is not more right than the other - they each try to explain a different aspect of reality... The alchemical model shows how your Yuan Shen - your original, 'pre-birth' spirit transforms from pure consciousness into the 'manifest', finite, physical/energetic form. The model is there to demonstrate how our consciousness connects with (and therefore can disconnect from) our acquired mind. Yuan Shen is 'perfect' and 'complete'... however, when it manifests into our incarnate world, it splits into two - Yin and Yang... Heaven and Earth. The Heavenly part splits into two - Hun and Shen (Wood and Fire) The Earthly aspect splits into two - Zhi and Po (Water and Metal) The Yi (Earth) acts like a spoke in the middle of the wheel - a central point that brings everything together. I tend to think of the Heavenly spirits as a connection to the divine aspect of human consciousness - and the Earthly spirits as the primal, animalistic aspects of human consciousness. With the Yi being the mediator and support for these. Psychologically, you can see this play out when you have lofty goals and ideas from the Heavenly aspect... but are held back by the desires and attachments from the Earthly side. You could say your mind (which is the Yi) is split in two... Similarly you could be living out your lofty ideals but your health and capacity deteriorate because you're not looking after your earthly aspect. The Hun is the Heavenly aspect of your soul and the Po is the Earthly aspect that dissolves back into the Yin field of the earth upon death. Since your understanding of the motives of these spirits happens mostly through your intellectual mind (Yi) - that's why you can have opposing thoughts pulling you in different directions. The Hun receives direction and inspiration from Heaven... The Hun directs the Yi to put the inspiration into action. The Shen acts like a mirror or a screen onto which aspects of the Dao are projected (the clarity of the projection varies with the qualities of one's Shen) - The Shen receives this from Heaven and makes it available to the human mind to percieve. The Zhi is more like willpower - the motivation to put something into action and to achieve fruition. It's also the part that has various personal desires - sexual, status, power etc... while at the same time being connected with our Ming - which acts as the balancing point between the will of heaven and the will of our individual self. The Po is very much the Earthly spirit. Attached to physicality which inevitably breaks down and dissolves. Attachment, sadness and an inability to let go are a result of the Po's intimate recognition of the principle of impermanence. The Po is able to perceive physicality and the requirements for surviving in physical form... It's the spirit that makes you gasp for air, to feel hungry, to feel tired... all tangible senses are produced by the Po. The Yi is human thought... It's quite neutral when centred - but it perceives and interacts with the other spirits to create intellectual, human thought. Your decision to be kind might have started out as a kind of vague impulse in the Shen - but it's only through interacting with the Yi that kindness can become manifest into thought and be brought into action - and it's through you Zhi that you could accomplish a large, kind act. Weirdly Yi in this context is both awareness and intent. Intent in the sense that you direct something... and awareness in the sense that you're simply aware of something. It's a bit of a paradox. Interestingly, by simply becoming aware of a process of unfolding - we feed that process. So in a sense, awareness is also a subtle form of intent. If your Dantien is glowing with heat, by simply becoming aware of it without contrivance, you will fan the flames... but add some force into it and turn awareness into intent, then you'll blow out the flame... But similarly if you have no ember or flame in your dantien, then simply becoming aware of it won't do much... you must put some intent into establishing the flame before settling into a more passive awareness. The Zhi is very different. It's force of will. It's sweating through very hard postures - or pushing through long hours to achieve something. This also has a sliding scale of course... but there is a sense of directed force involved.

so unhelpful!

Sure, I can try. But I first need to understand what you mean exactly. Im guessing this comes from the ‘Wu Wei’ concept? Or is there another source to this? What do you mean by focus your mind? What do you mean by guide your reality? ’do not get attached to outcome’ is important of course… in fact don’t get attached to anything… But what about ‘don’t set goals?’ How does that work? Is it only that you don’t set big goals? (like ‘pass my driving test’)… or does it apply to small goals too? (like ‘drink some water’ or ‘extend my out-breath for one second’)

This is the one of most concern to be honest. I think it's based on a fundamental misunderstanding.

For you, by far the most important thing is the Zhi - the spirit of the kidneys. If the Zhi is dysfunctional, then the rest of the system cannot move into any kind of harmony - just as if you poison the spring that feeds the well, any remediation work on the well will only ever have temporary results. The Zhi is in charge of your jing - which is both a kind of energetic substance and a kind of blueprint for the unfoldment of your physical body. It is also closely related to the ming men - which is 'the gate of destiny'... which is like where your spirit enters into physicality - a healthy ming men means your incarnation unfolds smoothly and efficiently through your lifetime. A dysfunctional mingmen means your lifepath goes off plan and results in a difficult and 'unlucky' life. Energetically when the Zhi is deficient and unintegrated, one's Qi and jing disperse. The Qi cannot anchor - which creates disharmony through the other organ spirits and results in Qi going up and 'burning' the heart and the head (emotional issues, mental issues, anxiety, palpitations, spaciness, psychotic behaviour etc) When the jing disperses, you lose your physical robustness, lose vitality, become consumed by various base desires (for food, sex, power) - lower back gets weak, knees and ankles start to hurt and give out easily... bones deteriorate, sexual fluids leak in various ways. The Zhi is damaged acutely by trauma that involves the taking away of one's agency - so physical, mental and sexual abuse, being imprisoned and restrained (either physically or psychologically) - or even by giving away one's agency to another (such as in cult type situations, abusive relationships or even addictions). Secondly the Zhi is damaged by chronic stress and fear for survival... think worrying over extreme, unmanageable debt... or how you're going to feed or house yourself. This can be 'imagined' too... for example someone clearly very wealthy can create the same form of internal 'survival stress' even though they clearly have all the necessities for survival. Lastly the Zhi is damaged by over-work - extreme amount of labour where you can't rest and recuperate. Constant use of (energetically, as well as physically) cold foods. Late nights and not enough sleep... too much sexual activity... too much lust and sexual thinking... extreme emotions and too much partying In terms of practical solutions to increase the health of the Zhi... first one must stop what is harming them... walk away from abusive relationships, stop addictions, regain agency, adjust life circumstances and your outlook so that you're not fighting mentally for survival. Then there's a lot more to do - everything from diet, to sleep to mental and emotional regulation... but just like the poisoned spring analogy - no point eating Kidney supporting foods if you're still stressed or letting someone or something control your agency over yourself. The kidneys are difficult to treat. It takes a long time and requires a substantial changes in how you live your life. While some believe that the jing is like the wax in a candle - in the sense that once it's out, the candle is finished... that is true 'medically' - but in the alchemical traditions, there is another source for 'wax'... it's just you need to get to the stage of being able to access it (pretty difficult) - and you need to get as healthy as you possibly can to be able to get to that stage.

Oh and it wasn’t master wu! The fancy outfits put me off meeting him

I’ve come across a few very high level teachers that charge ridiculous amounts… From what I understand, some teachers only want to teach people with means - it’s like a way of disqualifying those that wouldn’t be able to quit work and dedicate themselves… and it decreases the number of students - which is a huge drain on genuine teachers. In all honesty I really disliked this approach and felt a bit weird meeting with one such teacher. But I did meet him - he’s genuine and exceptionally accomplished. I visited his house, and he was obviously well off, but wasn’t flaunting wealth. Later one of his students told me that high prices is his way of quickly sifting through prospective students. He was already very wealthy from running a big business - and all the money from teaching was funnelled into various causes he supported. But I couldn’t afford more than a couple of meetings with him 😄

if you see seminal fluid as jing, then you’re already lost. Things are a lot more nuanced. There are plenty of threads that go into more depth. There’s no point to continue this discussion along your line of questioning, because you’ve got it fundamentally wrong. It’s not your fault, of course - there’s so much junk information that teaches this stuff incorrectly. But if you’re not willing to dive in and get a more nuanced understanding of what jing really means, then further discussion just becomes impossible.

Yeah - the terminology gets confusing. In fact for these later levels (which I’m nowhere near achieving) - my teacher explains the processes using hexagrams rather than words… in an attempt to do away with misunderstanding… but as a result my understanding is still in the very early stages. Ive had a teacher who teaches to merge and dissolve within a particular light that arises at the very core of the central channel in the later stages which is meant to be a different approach to immortality - and my main teacher now teaches the golden embryo approach… which is perhaps similar to your tradition. Bit by bit I’m learning what is metaphorical and what isn’t with experience. Something can be seen as a substance (or an embryo) from one perspective and can be seen as a state of consciousness from another vantage point… Over the years, as I start to experience the depth of the ‘real’ teachings within even the foundational stages, I become more and more confused about these later levels But yes in my tradition Yuanshen is past the ‘xuan men’ and beyond xing/ming… Its all terminology in the end. In our terminology, one doesn’t even have ‘Shen’ to begin with… people start out with another form of mind - and it must be developed to generate Shen. Which kind of messes up the jing-Qi-shen model. There is also a significant difference between ‘spirit’ and ‘soul’ too… But I don’t think it matters too much. What matters is that you understand your own school’s mental model… at a period when that’s pertinent to your own training. These are all just mental models that aim to assist an actual process. It’s the actual process that matters - the mental model not so much.

@Bindi You might be looking at the Yang Shen (or Yuan Shen as I’d refer to it) from a different ‘level’. In a sense what you’re talking about is aspects of a person’s ‘soul’ - which do indeed have Yin and Yang polarities. In alchemical Daoism this ‘soul’ divides into two polarities upon incarnation (and then subdivides into 9) The initial division is into the Hun and the Po (and the Hun further divides into two aspects, while the Po subdivides into seven various aspects). The Hun is like the Yang aspect of the soul and transmigrates (and is therefore immortal in one sense)… The Po is like the Yin aspect of the soul and anchors your incarnated form into physicality (time and space). So when incarnate, if there’s a strong disturbance within either the ‘yang’ Hun or the ‘yin’ Po - then you could say the soul is ‘incomplete’. This would be kind of obvious in a person… If the Hun is overactive and the Po is suppressed - people tend to be a bit manic and ‘up in the clouds’… lots of creativity and imagination, but completely ungrounded and divorced from reality. They'll see and imagine lots of things and when the situation is chronic and particularly bad, this leads to schizophrenic type tendencies. If the Po is overactive and the Hun is suppressed, there’s a kind of depressed quality, as well as an over-identification with ‘base’ things (things that are physical or that satisfy the body and the senses) - often in a really addictive way. Whether it’s addiction to drugs, or owning things, or sex or food - it’s like the soul is mistakenly identifying itself through physical things and feelings and so becomes intoxicated with them. When these aspects are balanced, you have a very healthy approach to life… and upon death, the Po can let go and it’s the Hun that goes through the process of rebirth. If especially unhealthy, then the Po gets attached to physicality and clings to the physical aspect of life (clinging to feelings, emotions or places and physical objects)… and so it can get stuck as a kind of ghost. Similarly if you’ve had a pretty terrible incarnation, the Hun, damaged by that life, can gravitate towards a lower incarnation (either in the hell realms or as animals or just a difficult life in the new incarnation). The Yang Shen is a different thing altogether - while permeating all of this, it exists at a different ‘level’ than what I’ve described above - as it’s a higher aspect that is ‘pre-heaven’.

This is so common in the west (in the east too, but rarely within genuine lineage-based traditions). When people attempt to walk the spiritual path without dealing with their own issues, and without having genuine methods and teachers, it often leads to an even deeper state of ignorance. Ive seen Chongyam trungpa being mentioned quite a bit recently - another example of a deeply deluded spiritual seeker… worse still these people go on to teach, which just creates a generation of lost seekers following deeply deluded ones. Some spiritual progress is often a lot worse than none… because people mistake the charisma developed from this sort of progress as a sign that the person is pure and virtuous, whereas very often the exact opposite is the case. Yes, sadly I’ve seen this often in my travels. It’s a shame because I feel a real kinship with people that are able to dedicate so much of themselves to a pursuit. But then they end up with the wrong methods, corrupted teachings or making up their own paths. When people go on extended trekking expeditions, they prepare themselves thoroughly, they train their bodies, understand everything about the route in minute detail, get all the right equipment, consult many different guides and experts to get everything just right… But when it comes to the spiritual path - which in reality is much more difficult, more perilous and requires far more preparation - they just decide to ‘wing it’, or use their intuition, ‘follow their hearts’ and succumb to magical thinking. It either breaks you… sometimes you get lucky and find a genuine teacher or school… but just as often you become a deeply abusive caricature of a human being… The downsides are far worse than those from a problem on your trek - a broken leg, or a bit of gangrene… some would argue worse than a quick death even . Yet we still continue with our magical make-believ ideas of what spiritual transformation really entails. I think it’s mostly the result of several generations of western teachers who took to teaching (or writing) at the worst part of the Dunning Kruger effect graph And so incompetence gets passed down the line…

Yes - excellent point. That’s what I’ve been taught too… that the tantric approaches were designed for a different age than Buddha’s life. And there has been another shift again recently… let’s see where that takes us as humanity - certainly starting out with a whole load of upheaval and division. But my understanding is that alchemical/tantric practice is even more appropriate for the age we’re moving into.