freeform

Actually the ‘consciousness’ approach has its own methods of Qi cultivation. They just look very different and are in some ways even more ‘esoteric’ than Qi practices. In Myanmar for instance they use external alchemy preparations to assist… In many Chan transitions there are empowerments from teachers, from relics and other weird and wonderful things (that are not spoken of in public). Similar in the various Theravada traditions. The work on the energetic level is ‘preparation’ for the consciousness level of practice. It’s creating some of the causes for the effect of consciousness transformation to take place of its own accord. Can someone achieve the Jhannas with no Qi cultivation? Yes probably… but that’s a one in hundred of billion chance … the ones that do, probably have many past lives of cultivation behind them and are born on the verge of enlightenment anyway. It’s usually immediately clear that they are no ordinary person from when they’re children… The majority of people I’ve met that think they’ve achieved Jhanna, sadly haven’t - but they’ll go ahead and teach others how to achieve it anyway. This stuff is at the very edge of what we are capable of as humans. Its mostly beyond what most of us are capable of… This fact is either inspiring for people - because it’s a kind of call to adventure, where we seek to discover if we can achieve the almost impossible - or it shatters us because we were so invested in the goal of liberation.

You’re such a tease @exorcist_1699

I train between 2 and 5hrs a day - whilst also working and having a (minimal to be honest) social life. So I have to plan carefully. I use (what I've recently learned is called) time-blocking. My day is divided into blocks of time that I 'book off' for specific activities - when I do an activity I generally focus 100% on it. So when I do a work task, nothing else makes its way into my attention (emails/phone, tea, unrelated thoughts or ideas etc). I also stick quite strictly to my time blocks and generally don't go over time (it took a while to get accurate at estimating how long things take). I've found that over time this has made me about 2x as productive as before - but it takes quite a bit of discipline to learn not to multitask or allow your mind to wonder to other stuff while working. I'm not a naturally disciplined person - and this has been key to developing that ability. I take small breaks in between the big time blocks (which is when I stretch, or check the Dao Bums, or listen to podcasts or watch videos etc). I also block time for nothing in particular which is when I'll go for a walk or call a friend or whatever I'd like. I do meditative training in the morning right after waking (usually 2hrs)... do some exercise in the afternoon around lunch... and then train again usually for 2hrs in the evening before bed. I don't watch TV while training (but I do listen to music or a podcast when I'm exercising). I do have goals - but it's quite different to how others seem to do them. I just know that I have to head in a certain direction, or develop a certain aspect in my training - there's no 'targets' that I have to hit, it's just knowing that there's a process and a path rather than just a mindless routine - I've found this super important. I do a lot of self correction - by basically writing things down after each training block... I also write down stuff about daily life - how I affect people, how they affect me, how I could improve that and so on. It all sounds quite strict, but actually my days seem to flow really smoothly and elegantly, I tend to feel calm and gentle rather than the 'hustling' mentality I see with friends that seem to either push too hard or vegetate, but hardly ever flow... This all built up naturally over time and feels quite normal to me.

worth a read. Though there’s a lot all over the forum. If you do an advanced search and search by author (if you want specific members views) and search for something like ‘jing’ or ‘sex’ - you’ll find lots of stuff. Will you die from ejaculating into your bladder? (which is what the chia style contraction does) - no. But there are many other issues, discussed at length in this and many other threads. Long term retention is dangerous unless you have deep experience in the internal arts and a very clear understanding of what you’re doing. (If your understanding is from Chia or derivatives of his work, then you do not have clear understanding unfortunately).

PS You have the power to decide how you receive something.

Indeed. Especially if you don't have an anchor. Create structure in your day - as in wake, sleep, eat and exercise at specific times - fill the rest of your time with structured activity that you've pre-determined and planned. Do some volunteering maybe - but in a structured way - as in delivering meals, doing some housework or gardening for people etc. Make decisions and use your will. Accept that no decision is perfect and that you're allowed to make mistakes. But make use of your will for the purpose of re-gaining your ability to direct your actions. I'm sure you're not lacking determination - you're clearly a determined person that could do very well for yourself, you've just lost the ability to assert your will as a result of a key misunderstanding of the Chan tradition and the role of the YJJ. If you allow your will to continue to atrophy, you in effect torture your kidney spirit - which is the root of your health, well-being and the anchor and deep wellspring for your mind and any spiritual pursuit. Let your kidneys continue to suffer and you'll continue to deteriorate your bones, continue to disperse your jing (which results in the other issues you've mentioned) as well as disconnect yourself from your Ming. So that's your avenue for taking action - and the reasons for doing it. Remember other people can't 'help' you in the way that you want - because that's not help, that's called being a servant. All that anyone on this forum can do is point out your blind spots and offer you an avenue for progress - but only you can actually walk down it.

Yes

Don't confuse the two. One is a mental projection/interpretation - the other is like a current weather report. It's the difference between "it's a dull, dreary, grey day - wet and depressing" vs "90% cloud cover, 70% humidity and 6.3mm of precipitation".

Esoteric Daoism means something specific to certain groups (aka deity worship, talismans, exorcisms, magic, spirits etc) - I don't have much experience in that path. I'm more talking about 'alchemical' daoism which is a sort of tantric path (working with the 'substances' of consciousness). The bodhisattva vow is not incompatible with alchemical Daoism - though they come from quite different models. The vow matters most when you're at the cusp of enlightenment - which is probably some way off for most of us. You don't really 'learn' Daoism - you practice it mostly... though of course learning is one small aspect of that. You might find a lot of the work in Daoism involves taking quite a few steps back from where you might be focusing at currently. Most of the hard work is done on the 'foundation' - which prepares one for spiritual practice...

I am aware of your story. I'm also aware of the health issues you've mentioned. From the Daoist alchemical perspective, everything aligns and is quite clear. Not discussing (or creating extra space for) your story is my most skilled response I'm afraid. (at least as skilled as I can manage) - but my response only aims at growth - not at comfort, or having you feel seen, accepted, soothed or understood. I get that this sounds like tough love - but actually, it's more just 'practical' rather than tough. Growth is, unfortunately a little painful and uncomfortable. It may not be what you really want at the moment - and that's fine. I'm just not the one to provide empathy and sympathy. That's not my strong suit, and that's not how I could help. Everyone has their story - and it's what creates our individual internal 'milieu'. You can either focus on the resulting milieu which is in the present... or on your story. One creates an opportunity for moving forward, the other soothes and entrenches us deeper into the acquired self. It's not necessarily the case that growth is the right thing to go for in all situations either. In fact it's probably not the right thing for you now at all. I look at your 'millieu' (to the best of my ability given the circumstances) - and what jumps out at me is your long suffering Zhi - the 'spirit' of your kidneys. In reality, before any real growth can happen, your kidney system needs to be addressed - which is a pretty long-term process and would require you to break out of your 'paradigm', which is probably painful enough before even addressing something like personal or spiritual growth.

Sure Happy to connect when you feel up to it. I wouldn’t treat differences of approach as barriers at all.

@TranquilTurmoil - understood Best of luck in your endeavour 🙏🏼

You don't need correcting and neither do you need to violate your paradigm. Just put your preconceptions aside and begin wholeheartedly training under a genuine system. Start with a beginner mind and give it everything you've got for 3 to 6 months, and then feel free to go back to your paradigm. It's not up to anyone to persuade you of anything it's all up to you. Sometimes it's worth putting your story, your uniqueness aside for a time - and letting something completely new and unfiltered in.

So you mean no one has helped you in the way that you'd like to be helped. Do you see that this means you're only allowing for things that conform to your views into your consciousness? Any 'help' that comes through this sort of filter will only ever support your current situation. I understand that you need to be heard and understood - but believe it or not, contrary to a lot of counseling-based approaches, this is not necessarily the best form of help for you. It may simply fuel further entrench you into your clinging to your story about yourself. It's easy to discern whether you have actually gone through what these saints have gone through. Can you teleport yourself here in front of me? Or some other higher siddhi?

The DDJ is also harsh and unflattering sometimes! How do you know that people's understanding isn't subtle enough?

That's missing the key first stanza something like: When superior people hear of the Dao, they practice it diligently When average people hear of the Dao, they tinker with it When lower people hear of the Dao, they laugh at it If they didn't laugh, it would not be the Dao.

I appreciate that. I do struggle with replying to people, because I'm well aware that stuff I say comes across quite harsh. Harsh in the sense that you can have harsh lighting in a photograph - where the difference between light and shadow are stark and unflattering. It's difficult on a forum because there is no way for others to see that I aim to communicate with love, but with a stark sharpness that quickly cuts through wrong and right. And on the other hand, not everyone on an internet forum should be trusted. That would certainly be my advice. With the sharpness, I want to quickly come to the point, instead of drawing you in with a more flattering approach. I do not wish to draw you in - I just want to share (my) truth, and leave it up to you to distinguish whether it applies or not. I genuinely wish for you to find the right help for yourself. I cannot help you - and nor can anyone (or anything) else. Even a teacher can only help create the conditions for you to progress by yourself. And I certainly cannot assist you on your terms. It's like asking me to hammer my round peg through your square hole (that came out weirder than I intended!) I just present my round peg - and it's up to you what you do with it.

It doesn't come off as delusions of grandeur, no It appears that what you're asking for is a way to stay on the same course, but arrive at a different destination (as much as you've been taught that it's all destinationless, you're still very much a part of the world of cause and effect) That is what I mean by that ^ I don't mean that what you've undertaken is difficult. It's not that there won't be avenues that purport to give this impossibility to you - it's just they all invariably lead to delusion and ignorance. You can't expect to stay the same and transform at the same time. It does - and I've read quite a few of your other posts too. I am not suggesting you change your course of action, that's not the point. I can only share with you my experience and understanding. My teacher used to have a clinic and a large proportion of his patients were monks and lay practitioners with a variation of Chan sickness. I'm responding because you asked for advice. What I'm looking for is the quality of your response to my 'challenging' of your views. Depending on the response, I proceed accordingly. Also, in part what I'm sharing is for the other people who resonate with that empty nihilistic state that is very common. This is as much for you as it is for others reading this and feel that they resonate with your situation.

😄 Well - neither am I - not even close. You do understand that you’re asking for something close to impossible… It already has. I’m sure you realise this. You can let go of egoic tendencies but only when your ego is strong and ‘wholesome’. Only when you have developed the correct inner characteristics, can these structures be let go of. A person with inner strength will be able to laugh about themselves when teased. A person with a wounded self image will be wounded ever deeper by the same teasing. When these structures are unwholesome, what you let go of is self awareness. The structures cling even more, but hidden in the haze created by ignorance. Meaning and hope aren’t necessarily wholesome characteristics. Wholesome characteristics are the sort that other people can see in you and your actions. If you’re dependable, effective, reliable, disciplined. These are the wholesome characteristics that are necessary. These are linked to being able to act effectively in the world. The I Ching in spiritual context isn’t a thing or a consciousness apart from you. Its a process by which you can delve into yourself to gather insight into a moment in time. Your ability to penetrate the outer layers to achieve insight is what decides how accurate and useful your Yi Jing reading is. (Amongst many others) It is not an infallible oracle - it’s a window into yourself… an imperfect, cloudy window. You cannot shirk the responsibility for yourself by giving power over to the Yi Jing - because in reality, you’re giving power over to a part of yourself that’s clouded in ignorance… You’re being led by an unconscious part of yourself, with the illusion that you’re being led by a benevolent master. I had a teacher who was a Yi Jing master. For him it was a way of understanding the process of change on the level of the Qi field. It wasn’t an oracle, it wasn’t to guide ones actions or predict the future - it was a way to understand the underlying mechanics to the process of change in a given moment.

You're free of identity-based structures?

Chan certainly incorporated a lot of stuff into its fold. Yeah - my question was to lead to this. There’s a real discrepancy between what is practiced in the east (at least behind closed doors) and what is practiced in the west. In the east, the path is very grounded in the idea of paradox. If you don’t see paradox in what you’re doing, then there’s something missing. Wei Wu Wei - action without action is similar to ‘there is nothing to attain’. Yet all genuine teachers I know are the most diligent action takers I have ever met. Efficient, active and effective… think Elon Musk or Ray Dalio - or any other highly successful person. They may enter meditation for days or for years - yet their practice is built upon a wholesome and ‘successful’ life that they’ve built. Whether it is in a monastic setting - where they are pillars of the community and help thousands with their actions or in ‘householder’ type lives - where they’re often successful professionals, businessmen, prolific artists or respected doctors. They are not the crazy beggar that gets drunk and spouts wisdom. Or the monk that only sits reciting prayers all day. Every part of the path from the early through the intermediate stage is filled with disciplined, directed action. And this isn’t a comfortable sort of action, but difficult, painful, exhausting sort of action. Most young people that come to the Daoist arts start out with the martial arts. This involves many hours of arduous training every day… followed by chores. This goes on for years. The aim of this is to build discipline, strength, resilience, dependability. It is later in the path (much later) after these traits become aspects of your personality - only then do you let them go. In the west, (though also in the east, these days) - that initial part is left out. Even though it forms a good 60% of the path. We tend to go to the abandoning stage straight away. This results in what some people call the Chan sickness. A kind of very Yin state of emptiness. When a strong, disciplined mind let’s go, then things naturally follow a process that leads to meditative states. When a tired, lazy, dull mind lets go, it is pulled by the ‘unwholesome karmic tendencies’ into a deep state of a nihilistic sort of existence. It is unfortunate that you’ve been led into this sort of ‘Aimlessness’. This is not the original intent of the process. I believe it’s the result of ‘teachers’ taking shortcuts or ‘adapting the path for westerners’ - or just simply cutting out the hard stuff. If getting over the Chan sickness is something you’d like to do, then I would suggest doing the opposite of ‘aimlessness’ for some time. Have a well defined structure to your day. Stick to the structure. Add some directed form of physical difficulty - such as exercise - and make that part of your every day. Find a way of being of service to people too. It needs to be something where you take on some responsibility. Handing out soup is fine - but it’s only a start, there needs to be something more on the line for you, some pressure. You can be of service through your job - it doesn’t have to just be volunteering. But to really be of service in your job, you must take it upon yourself to be exceptionally good at what you do - so that you always give back more than whatever payment you receive for it.

This is interesting - what do you mean by this? How do you understand Wei Wu Wei?

What gives rise to the movements is Yang Qi mobilising and perhaps touching on these blockages. It’s not the blockages themselves. It’s a subtle distinction, but it’s important. If you relax your mind away from the mental state that activates the yang Qi, then it won’t happen. You’re in control - but the point of control happens much earlier in the process - once the movements have started, it means you missed the opportune point in time to relax and release away from that mental state. it might take a bit of carful awareness and attention to find when your mind goes to that place, and relax and release away from it at just that point. Hope that makes that sense. It takes a bit of work. it is better to sit upright, as the gravity assists the process and the slight effort keeps your mind from drifting off.

@GreenCord - I looked back and now remember you had some other issues from practice. As I think was advised previously, best to stop standing practice for a while. As forestofemptiness mentioned, focus on the Anchoring Breath a lot. This should be your main practice, along with some stretching and exercise. These are powerful practices - and if you've had any issues, it's best to at least correspond with a teacher from their school, and eventually get some in-person training.

It didn't just happen. That's exactly what he did. He explained what led up to it - he's been practicing a specific standing posture applying the correct causes for the dantien to awaken. I'm well aware of the posture and approach he's talking about, and if you're relatively young and healthy, your dantien will wake up and your qi will mobilise and zifagong is the expected result. If it just happened out of nowhere, then yes indeed there might be something to look into.