freeform

What would the healing and integration of this look like? How would you know it's fully healed?

There is nothing inherently wrong with zifagong (which is the name for what you’re describing). The problem is that the course your zifagong process takes, is shaped by many things including your training, your attitude, personality, beliefs and guidance from teachers. That is not the case for zifagong - which is very different from the spasms some people get from wind invasion and liver related issues. This is a well known process in Neigong and standard TCM understanding is not relevant here. Zifagong is one of the more powerful processes that can quickly and efficiently clear out all manner of ‘blockages’ on many different layers - from physical, to energetic and emotional. Essentially it is when you have enough Yang Qi and your Dantien activates, mobilising the Qi through your system. The Qi will work its way through various layers - mostly at the nervous system level to start - hence all the spasms, shaking and wild movements… it eventually moves through emotional layers (movements and experiences will change - like laughter and more entertaining ‘compound movements’) and eventually start to move into the channels, at which stage the movements will become very subtle, slow and smooth, but feel powerful internally. Because the zifagong process is so malleable, that’s why it’s recommended that you’re properly supervised by a competent teacher at the early stages. You also need to understand the process and how it unfolds so that you don’t get sucked into a ‘side path’. Its proper progress is guided by understanding it as well the effect of the rest of your practice. A teacher can keep an eye on how the process is developing, and just make sure to keep you from going in the wrong direction. For instance some people get fascinated and sort of indulge in it. Others treat it as some spiritual thing. Sometimes when emotions are brought up, people will delve too deeply into the feeling or content of the emotion rather than letting it go. When people misunderstand its purpose (for example giving undue importance, or even vilifying it) then it takes on the ‘shape’ of these beliefs and plays out unhealthily in that direction. The truth is that it’s a process that has a beginning and an end. It’s quite mechanistic - as in it’s literally Qi touching the nerves or the outer layers of the channel system and the various bound up blockages and stored emotions etc. Sometimes the process starts when you don’t have a teacher available. Unfortunately trying to ‘stop’ it or bracing against it in daily practice is also not healthy. Something like the anchoring the breath exercise above will help move you away from the process, (you must also mentally relax your mind away from that state.) But it’s important to understand that this is a very useful, healthy, natural part of the Neigong process, it doesn’t inherently create issues as long as conditions are right. Not something to fear at all… like you wouldn’t fear a yawn or a sneeze.

Yup Michael Winn is a major one. (He at least seems to tone down the more damaging stuff from Chia.) All the Healing Tao stuff that’s spread around the world is based on Chia. There are many other teachers that took Healing Tao stuff and made it their own thing. A lot of modern ‘Daoist’ practices that tend to focus heavily on sexual practices, retention etc are derivatives of Chia’s stuff. Make money, be the centre of attention, get full control and have sex with your students - it’s a winning combination for a narcissistic personality.

Yeah it’s really not the practice to be starting with. Most Daoist systems (that eventually use the MCO) start by activating, then building and then filling the Dantien - this in itself is a long term process that takes a number of years (filling takes much longer). Without an activated Dantien, there is little Qi in the system. Without a ‘built’ Dantien, your Qi does not anchor low in the body. Without an anchor, your Qi will raise to your heart and head. The problem with this view - where everything is ‘correct’ in its own way is that it’s a wrong view. Some things are 100% wrong. There are many cultivation systems that are wrong because they’ve been made up by someone with no mastery or expertise. Some people experienced ‘benefits’ from lobotomies.

I knew I talked about it before! I know it’s not good to comment on people’s work - but I don’t care. Stay well away from Chia and derivatives of his work. It’s a waste of time and effort at best

His has somehow managed to damage both newcomers to the arts as well as serious long term practitioners in his school. One of the ‘master’ level teachers in his organisation was in the news for breaking into a police impound lot to steal a samurai sword which he used to threaten a bouncer at a strip club he was thrown out of (because he got ‘handsy’ with the dancers). This forum is frequently visited by people who have damaged themselves with Chia’s work. From permanently damaging the structure of the ‘piping’ of their sexual organs (urethra, vas deference, seminal vesicles etc) - where they constantly leak sperm into their bladder, create incontinence or deep stagnation that takes years of work to undo. Some have developed mental problems - everything from paranoia to full on psychosis and mental delusions as well as sexual deviancy… He has also managed to damage what Daoism means to many people. It went from a deeply respected ancient tradition of spiritual transformation to masturbation techniques, hanging weights off balls and trying to steal essence from virgins and having multiple orgasms while not ejaculating. He also completely, word for word, plagiarised other people’s books and sold them as his own. While all the detail in his books might seem appealing and in-depth, he has clearly completely misunderstood the methods and principles of internal practice. From the very basics he got almost everything wrong. Much of what we have in the west now is a derivative of his work… Damaging the tradition for several generations of seekers. In one of his books he mentions that the masters in China were angry that he revealed all these secrets. I think they were probably angry that he completely butchered the tradition, taught methods that are dangerous and ‘sexed up’ the whole thing to make money.

To be honest the candle analogy is a pretty simplistic mental model. Not so useful in this context. Classically there are quite precise mechanisms that explain how emotions drain you - and which emotions drain which part of you in what way… But from a spiritual cultivation perspective this level of detail is not so important (though it is from a medical perspective). Strong compulsive emotions affect one on every level - Jing, Qi and Shen. They’re all draining. But to different extents. The subtle joy you feel when you open the door on a sunny spring morning is less draining than the exhilaration you feel when you win a big prize at a roulette table. Draining isn’t necessarily bad. Life is draining But yes there is a stage when you reach a deep state of harmony where reactive emotion doesn’t work that way any longer... Where your car breaking down feels no different to winning a car in some prize draw. Then emotions cease to be draining… but this is an incredibly rare attainment. cultivation And not taking your ‘self’ too seriously

Did I answer your question by the way? I understood it as ‘why women in particular?’ But I just realised your question may have been more about why emotions are draining generally.

Strong, compulsive emotions drain both men and women. Classically it is said that men have a hard time with letting go of their clinging to the base desires (survival mechanisms) - whereas women have an easier time of it. However women are said to have a hard time letting go of their clinging to emotion - whereas men have an easier time of that. The base desires are the initial hurdle - that’s why women tend to progress faster earlier on in the cultivation process - but many get stuck at the level of transforming the emotions. I should probably add that this isn’t my opinion - just what has been passed on to me by several teachers. Yes it’s the unconscious reactive emotions that cause the most issues. Once they’re allowed to transform we generally experience much more subtle, nuanced emotions that aren’t so reactive and compulsive in nature… Later these also give way - to stable (unwavering) virtuous states (though this is pretty far down the line).

Look for skill, character (virtue) and willingness to teach. Pay particular attention to the senior students.

So have I. I just became better and better at recognising the red flags quickly.

(Double post)

You keep looking at traditions - I suggest looking at people. Each of these traditions will have some people with genuine methods and experience - and a vast number who are lost. Look for exceptional people and train with them or those connected to them. Tradition doesn’t matter that much.

When Qi really moves it's anything but subtle Eventually when this sort of reaction stops happening - the Qi that creates these movements is still coursing through you on the 'inside' - and doing even simple movements feels extremely powerful on the inside. The sweating that's experienced at the start of ones Qigong journey is usually due to the stabiliser muscles being worked very hard through standing. It's usually not Qi. (though sometimes it is) The sweating that comes about after the zifagong stage - is the result of Qi flow meeting internal resistance in the body (and mind)... as the resistance is cleared, the channels are opened more, then the sweating generally stops - and it feels like the movements 'do themselves'... it's like there's no effort and your limbs just float through their movements... You drop your weight to your foot - and your arms rise up and do the correct movements by themselves. It's a very pleasant stage (but it must be moved past quickly) Past this stage, you're meant to Song more into that floaty feeling - releasing a further layer of tension - the qi goes deeper - and more sweating and sometimes pretty painful internal stretches start happening. With this stuff you always feel a little sore and wrung out... you actually start to miss that feeling if you havent had the opportunity to train for a while If none of this is happening - usually it's just choreography or something very light designed for the frail. When they say something is 'internal' - in one way it means that a lot more stuff is moving on the inside than is moving on the outside.

Completely agree.

Control is a funny word... For instance controlling water - you certainly can’t control it in the same way as you could control a brick for instance. You want a brick on your table? You pick it up and move it. You want it under the table? You pick it up and put it there. Try doing that with water... With water everything you do is indirect... you work on plumbing, you work on containers - and you always let water do it’s own thing. So it’s similar with Qi. For stilling the mind for instance - you don’t need to do anything... simply clearing the river beds will calm the mind (remember Qi is the higher mind). Once you’ve created the ‘container’ for the Qi in your belly... once you’ve cleared the path for it to sink, your mind will naturally quiet down of its own accord. When you’re full of Qi it feels like you’re just back from a long holiday - completely relaxed, vital, full of good mood and nothing bothers you. Most people are meditating while stressed, depleted, anxious and addicted to stimulation... and when they look inside they find even more garbage - and the stress increases. Secondly Qi can act as a sort of fuel... instead of reaching a kind of nihilistic emptiness in advanced meditation, with Qi, one reaches a stillness out of which radiates a bright light... Healing in yourself usually happens automatically with long term practice. Sometimes you need extra help. When you’re advanced, you can emit Qi from your hands and heal others. To achieve any of the above, you need to be following a genuine system. A genuine system will contain everything from beginning to enlightenment and beyond. Trying to reverse engineer things generally gets you nowhere. And often it’s dangerous. These things are developed by thousands of great minds over many hundreds of generations, carefully refining the process generation after generation... Are you smarter and more insightful than that? Can you reverse engineer the whole of physics? Or the whole field of mathematics? I certainly am not So although you’re not ‘locked in’ to anything - trying to make your own path to enlightenment is like taking your own made up route to the top of the Everest...

The lower is connected to your Jing and therefore Ming... kinda like how your body manifests into physical existence, and takes on certain attributes - sort of like a physical karma. It also functions as a sort of battery. On the level of the mind, the LDT represents calm present moment awareness. Its a big subject - so this is a hugely oversimplified description.

The upper Dantien is seen as a sort of step-down transformer of ‘heaven’ into the ‘human’ realm. It’s not seen as the seat of the mind as it is in western thinking (the middle Dantien is) So if you spend time with the upper Dantien it will most likely affect your perception of reality and consciousness

The middle Dantien is all about the psycho-emotional

Sorry to answer with a question - but why do you think ‘psycho-emotional functions’ not an aspect of - or separate to jing/Qi/Shen? Or is the real question ‘are the Dantiens the same as the chakra?’

My favourite analogy for how qigong works is gardening related. What we want to do is dig a channel for the water to flow of its own accord. ‘Digging the channel’ is working on quite physical (though unusual) aspects of the body. What you know of as meridians are actually running along a ‘riverbed’ of physical soft tissue channels (akin to fascia) - which are the Jing Jin lines. So we start qigong by working on clearing, strengthening and interconnecting these river beds so that the water (Qi) flows down the correct routes smoothly and of its own accord. No need to push or pull the water itself... just clear the channel and the water will move by it’s self, at it’s own pace. So yes - the answer is doing the forms ‘correctly’. Though ‘correctly’ means different things to different teachers. There are nuanced internal mechanics and principles we must follow to do it actually correctly. You'll often see someone doing pretty simple, easy looking movements - but they’re dripping in sweat and their body trembling with the effort... that’s often an indication that the correct principles are being put into action. If you simply imitate the movements you can see on the outside, but using none of the principles - you’d just be doing (really boring) choreography... and no internal work would be happening. The channels wouldn’t be dug - you’d just be getting an extremely light mobility workout. The vast majority of what I see the well known teachers teaching is just this type of choreography sadly. But these days, more and more genuine teachers are surfacing and indeed teaching the real methods - which is great.

In eastern thought everything is Mind... The meridians are like the way the mind extends into and ‘creates’ the body... In essence your Qi is your mind (though not the mind you identify with - it’s deeper than that). The Daoist thinking is - that using the mind to work with the mind is close to impossible... like trying to control fire with more fire... for instance if you identify something in your mind as a problem - by the very fact you identified it as a problem, it has entrenched it even deeper... the identification itself adds another layer of illusion to the existing disharmony - and now it’s harder to let go of. So Daoists work on the underlying Qi mechanics... patterns of Qi are hard to attach to - hard to form any emotional reaction to something without any inherent emotional content... on the level of the Qi, a trauma simply “looks” like a stuck splodge... not particularly emotionally captivating... and simply doing your practice will eventually unbind and release the splodge without you even noticing. No catharsis, no struggle, no identification - it simply drops off like an old scab. Qi sensitivity is overrated. When Qi really wakes up, it’s pretty hard to ignore. If it’s super subtle, then you’re best off paying attention to your body, not trying to find the Qi. Most genuine practices start with working on the body directly. Have a look at Damo Mitchell’s academy - from what I’ve seen people are making great progress. Which surprised me as I’m not into online training... but seems it works...

It's pretty much a manual for Daoist meditative practice

Interesting. Daoists are certainly a lot more forthcoming with the nuts and bolts... although often codified to avoid the non-initiates.

Whether random or rational - Waidan is a dangerous thing - unless you have a teacher... and there are not many of them around