freeform

No, it didn’t seem like that. You're always very respectful You're right that it’s not helpful to start with MCO practice - and that the Dantien needs to be developed first. Just wanted to suggest that if someone wants to make progress the cheapest way possible, that they could get some of the foundational practices that lead up to the MCO from Damo’s books.

Front of the spine is definitely not a standard route... maybe this isn’t an MCO practice, but a way to work on the central channel? What happens after you reach the head? What’s more usual is the points on the back surface of the spine... sometimes through the centre of the spine... in some cases almost the whole back that gets involved (that’s most accurate in my experience). The most thorough presentation of the MCO I’ve seen is this one: https://damomitchell.com/2020/03/23/microcosmic-orbit/ Maybe you’ll find some clues there?

Ohhh - you’re one of those. That explains the attitude. Happy travels.

Yeah MCO is somewhat advanced... but not completely useless. I think he has methods to develop the LDT in his books.

You're right that of course this is not what you get from any online training. But when in-person retreats will be a thing again, it’s quite possible to meet with him. And unlike many teachers, he knows all of his returning students, their names and energy signatures (along with any changes and developments there) - and he has hundreds of them. It’s quite impressive actually. I get borrowing a book, or reading a pirated copy to check it out... even looking through a few videos on a friend’s account.. but taking on a pretty serious daily practice that a teacher took great lengths to develop and present - and starting that relationship with some underhanded swindle - that’s certainly one of the least auspicious starts I could think of - for the new student. Oh and justifications don’t help... they just hide that karmic nugget in a layer of ignorance.

Well said

Whatever is on the platform is not particularly important. And I’m not worried about Damo losing out on tuition fees. But if you’re looking to seriously start undertaking a practice - and you start that relationship by ‘cheating’, that creates a certain cause within your own psyche that will unfold usually pretty negatively for you... that’s all.

Excellent suggestion @Creation There’s other reasons why trying to game your spiritual teacher is not a good idea 😄

why not go for stuff you can afford?

Yeah the efficiency of the spleen system to absorb nutrition from food goes up drastically... at which point you simply need to slightly reduce the quantity of food for each meal. (alternatively, if you’re sinking too much, and not allowing an inner stretch to develop in the Yao as a result of dropping the weight of your pelvis off the upper torso - this can also cause stagnation (followed by fat) in the belly area. But I don’t think that’s what’s going on for you) Mindful (silent, undistracted) eating (tasting, smelling and sensing the movement of food through your system) will also increase absorption of the good stuff Particularly if each ingredient is directly identifiable with the senses. Three meals a day with no snacking in between is what my teacher recommends. Great for health (trying not to get too off topic)

Pleased for you Just remember this is still just one half of the equation. Don’t neglect the other parts

There are two aspects to primordial jing... heavenly and earthly. Earthly jing is the pre-natal jing we know about. The heavenly jing is a rare ‘substance’ that is tapped at the bai hui (heavenly lake at the top of the mountain)... it can ‘take the place of’ ones earthly jing - and is accessed through advanced practices. This is what is used to ‘return to youthfulness’...

Yeah I’m talking about the Neigong aspect of jing which is the ‘kidney essence’. ‘Jing nourishing foods’ doesn’t mean it’s ‘adding’ jing to your organs... The jing of all your organs comes from your original essence. How depleting qi practices are on a fasting body depends how efficient your practice is... but in my experience, even if you have just a slight deficit of calories in a day (let alone fast completely for a few days) - it will start to dip into your essence. I wouldn’t belabour this point if I didn’t consider this to be particularly dangerous for people. While it’s true that if you haven’t mobilised yang qi, to any great extent, it wouldn’t cause too many issues... but if you have (for instance if you get trembling, shaking, zifagong, electric currents etc) - then you’re putting yourself at great risk.

Certain meditative training would benefit from fasting though.

Qi comes from digesting food. Jing you already have - but only a ‘finite amount’ of it... It cannot be replenished (in most circumstances). If you stimulate Qi production and you stop eating at the same time, your body will have to dip into your Jing reserves to generate it. When on retreat and focusing on Neigong specifically, my calorie intake often doubles. If I was fasting and training to the same intensity, I’d seriously damage my health for the rest of my life.

fasting combined with energy work is incredibly draining for one’s jing. Particularly if you’re able to mobilise Qi to any great extent. if fasting gentle breathing practice is best... and sitting quietly with awareness. For healing - bone broths definitely. Rest and sleep. Just being gentle and nurturing with yourself... drinking hot water throughout the day... and laughter

There’s quite an in-depth discussion of this stuff in this thread: Yes - you’re totally right - the (not so) old adage of “any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic” is pretty accurate. Much of what I thought was folklore or metaphor when I first got on the path has proven to be surprisingly real. That’s the standard advaita vedanta view - but from my experience, at least in the Daoist tradition (and within some Buddhist lines) - enlightenment is anything but ‘normal’ or ordinary (all discussed at length in the thread linked to above)

Well you're a weirdo by nature then (as am I!) Yes - certainly... By 'healthy' - I probably mean socially acceptably healthy

Sounds just like me Being 'wounded' in some way is generally how people get into this stuff... I think the 'un-wounded' generally get into sports, cars, make up, relationships, money, possessions - just normal, everyday stuff most healthy people are into. Not like us weirdos

The acquired mind is an insidious little thing The problem is that despite awakening experiences (even the prolonged ones!) the acquired identity is still there, in the background, slowly fabricating 'self' and creating layers of distortion... One issue is language. When someone gets used to non-dual type speak, their 'self' will co-opt it into its arsenal of 'self-making' tools... It will use the slippery nature of 'non-dual' talk to obfuscate the fact that the self is slowly co-opting the 'awakening' into its identity... It's a kind of ignorance shield... where the mind will use ignorance as a way to hide its own machinations. This ignorance shield means that skill acquired from meditative practice can be used as construction material for 'self' without the cultivator even knowing it's happening. In effect the very tools that are meant to be used to gently dismantle the self are used to create it The goal posts will be moved to match experience... the ignorance shield will be used to detract any evidence to the contrary... and language will divert attention away from truth to some metaperspective that feels nice. It's funny... but sad. It happens to all of us. That's the biggest issue. What @anshino23 and I discussed in a recent thread. Something significant may well happen - which gives the 'self' extra ammunition... and the co-opting of spiritual experiences into the fabric of the self is strengthened... And this evidence is enough to stop one looking for the inherent self-deception going on... it's that ignorance shield again! Having a genuine teacher and some peers helps a bunch - because they'll be able to see the process happening and use skillful means to put an end to it. Daoist teachers rarely use 'non-dual' talk... which was interesting to me because I came to it from a non-dual teacher. Some prefer almost no talk at all... Some communicate abstractly - through calligraphy, musical instruments, mind-to-mind transmissions or the Yi Jing... Others prefer a direct, precise use of 'plain' speaking. No clever 'metaphrases'... no riddle type questions... no koans. Just normal, every day talk - but precise use of terminology. And a good dose of teasing and joking. Talking is talking - the big shifts happen as a result of correct causes being put into place (which is done in training) - words are very rarely used as the cause.

@anshino23 - I think it's particularly prevalent in the spiritual arts. Who doesn't want to end all suffering, feel bliss and love and contentment - no matter the circumstances... And when they go to search for it, there are many willing to sell them a promise of having all this without effort. The reality is that this isn't a normal sort of endeavour - it requires working on the 'ugly' parts of ourselves... it requires lots of time, lots of sacrifice and a lot of sweat and 'growing pain'. I don't think this is for everyone... and I kinda wish that there was more emphasis on the reality of the matter. This would quickly sort out the ones who are really dedicated to this path from the ones that want to improve their quality of life. Currently many of the (potentially) dedicated ones stumble into ridiculous instagram spirituality and immediately write it off... and the ones looking to improve their life are taken on a wild goose chase (of books, workshops, apps, gadgets etc) rather than being shown what would actually improve their life (which is almost always the basics - eating, sleeping, exercising, social connection and maybe breathing practice)

It's a good question. Generally it's best to stick to one 'system'. But a system will have maaany different methods... If you're building a house - there are many different skills and methods required... from pouring the foundation slab, to laying bricks, to roofing, plumbing, electrics... all these things are required to have a functioning house that stands the test of time. But there are many different building 'systems'... in the tropics the 'foundation' wouldn't be concrete - it would be pillars driven into the ground and a light bamboo floor (with lots of holes for air circulation) placed on top... But say you like the look of the foundations of the the tropical architecture, the roofing of the Mediterranean vernacular and the thick stone walls of old mountain buildings - well the house you build will fall apart rather quickly (and probably kill its occupants!) But with buildings - since we've all seen hundreds of them, we tend to have a kind of 'common sense' about them... but cultivation systems are rare - and it may appear that we can develop a common sense from reading books and things - but the majority of the time, our intuition about these things is wrong. So - best not try recreating a system logically - betterr to stick to a system with a clear process and a decent, trustworthy teacher that knows what they're doing There's a recent topic about cultivation systems you can have a look at:

That sounds sensible - but it's always worth being loose with these things - it doesn't matter how things map really... and I'm sure experientially there are many different possibilities. For Daoists the 'byproducts' of attainment are somewhat important to recognise. In the sense that any attainment will have very specific physical, physiological and rather 'woo woo' byproducts that indicate the true achievement of whatever stage. For instance hundreds of thousands (maybe millions) think they've awoken the kundalini... (it exists in alchemical Daoism too) - but how many of them achieve the sort of things that are reported to happen as a byproduct of this? I assume not many - otherwise we'd have thousands of yogis levitating, teleporting and bi-locating.

Sounds a bit like brain damage

Oh there’s also the ‘wounded’ type that wants to heal some perceived trauma in oneself. That was me Similar to power seekers - but a different flavour (more depressive - rather than aggressive). The healing with these arts doesn’t really happen in the way that us wounded types would like it to happen...