freeform

*sigh* yeah. I was going to say I’m sorry that has happened to you - but in a way it probably led you to where you’re at now... so in a way it was all a learning experience. I’m glad you got out - and didn’t drop out of medical school! Indeed it’s true that ‘half-right’ is the bane of the spiritual world - for so many reasons. (it’s also the bane of self discernment!) There are so many half-baked teachers in the world. The worst thing is to get off the path part way through - and then beginning to teach 🙈 Its the classic story - student develops some skill or attainment, but leaves his or her tradition way before they’ve understood what’s what... Then they go and become a guru... and slowly but surely become a bit of a monster. Whether it’s through self delusion (thinking themselves as more developed than they are) - Or it’s simply selfishness (hey I could make money with this!) Either way, they simply don’t realise the enormous responsibility of leading a student through a spiritual process... and the massive ramifications of leading them astray in this way. Intentionally (or even just through ignorance) harming a student that has come to you for spiritual growth generates really heavy karma (apparently). When I first came to traditional Daoism, I found all the hierarchical lineage stuff kind of stifling. All these levels, all these attainments, tests, discipleships etc etc. But more and more I’m beginning to understand just how important it is to remain within a structure where your peers and those senior to you keep a watch over your progress. Something like being able to set off zifagong in people comes relatively early... and when various awakening experiences start up, it’s so easy to delude yourself and think you’re enlightened... It’s so helpful to get humbled and fail a few tests and it’s imperative to have a teacher say - no you have more to do, or yes you have my blessing to teach this and this but not that. That’s the value in tradition - as stuffy as it might seem from the outside... So I’m glad you’re where you are @anshino23 As difficult and slow as your training might feel now - it’s far better than falling into a trap set by a spiritual narcissist!

Non-dual paths were the obvious next step for me after that experience with my teacher. I travelled with a friend to various ashrams and groups... Maybe I was unlucky but what I found was typified by a teacher that clearly had some attainment, with either: 1) a completely deluded, highly narcissistic congregation (particularly the inner circles of the closest devotees.) or 2) Lovely, sweet group of people completely tranced out, ungrounded with their heads in the clouds. This happened over and over... I’ve never seen as much creepy behaviour as I did in the non-dual community (both western and Indian) And all the feet kissing and adulation didn’t even figure in my equation - I understand the idea of surrendering the self to a representation of something higher. I’m talking about the questionable use of funds and approaches to collect ‘donations’, the treatment of any discerning questions, all the gaslighting, constant mystical nonsensical talk (particularly from the senior followers)... “You’re too attached to your mind brother” type of crap when you raise something... The constant misdirection “maybe you should search within why (the idea that the guru is sleeping with his students) is so vexing for you”... Oh yeah and “who is the I that feels this way” is particular favourite of mine Eventually it became a running joke with my friend and I - where we took bets whether the guru we’re visiting would be a 60-something dude with a 20-something blonde girlfriend... (it was foolish to bet against that). Oh and the late night ‘talks’ and ‘shaktipats’ for the select few (only the good looking young girls (and boys) of course) that was a common one too. For the question of discernment about a teacher, it became clear that “half-right” was a hell of a lot worse than just plain “wrong”. Because there was generally some sort of attainment in the teacher - whether charisma, or an ability to create a really palpable spiritual presence. I saw many smart people stuck in these groups... and had it been my first time experiencing something like transmission, maybe I’d have been one of them too... But these experiences sharpened my discernment. Look at the senior students... you’ll see everything playing out there. ——— There’s a fair few highly dodgy Neigong teachers too, mind you! But at least they’re actually quite easy to spot - because they tend not to hide the fact at all (usually rather proud of it actually) Whether it’s whoring and womanising or obsession with money or booze, it’s quite plain to see... and because the extra Qi tends to enflame their personality it makes them into a kind of over the top caricature of a person (Gary Clyman comes to mind). The spiritual world is a real pit if you go looking! So easy to get caught up in it. Discernment is so important in the spiritual world particularly.

Ah this is all stuff that I don’t understand myself... I don’t have direct insight into this, so my guesses would simply be just that - guesses.

Well that’s certainly me! The siddhi are not developed as ‘powers’ over and above your capacity... they’re simply the byproduct of ever deeper awakening... Just as ‘breathing’ and a nose would be considered a ‘siddhi’ of the earthly realm. [in fact being able to release karma is indeed considered a siddhi of the earthly realm - and not possible in any other realms] Similarly if you’ve developed and actualised and fully ‘inhabit’ your energy body, you’ll invariably have certain abilities available. As far as I’ve been told. So I don’t imagine it’s possible to become an immortal spirit without the abilities of that state of being - just as you can’t inhabit the earthly realm without the ability to breathe.

I realise ‘developing the body to achieve awakening’ is probably just shorthand... but hopefully I’ve made it clear that that’s not really how it works... You're right though... apparently at a certain stage in history, enlightenment was achievable more easily. (This comes from Theravada monks I’ve talked to btw)... But nowadays the circumstances are different (kali yuga) - and when this shift occurred suddenly all these tantric traditions sprang up - because enlightenment without working with Qi became close to impossible. Vajrayana, various yogic traditions, Tibetan traditions, Daoist ones etc all sprung up in response to this shift. If you go to serious Theravada or Forest traditions in Thailand for instance, they have their own tantric approaches - whether through use of empowerments, or external alchemical preparations (popular in Myanmar), or using relics, amulets and all sorts of other methods of cultivation. It’s important to remember that the vast majority of monks are not monks because they’re working towards enlightenment (obviously it’d be nice though)... But in Asia it’s a culturally acceptable ‘lifestyle’. People for instance send their kids off to become monks because they can’t afford to look after them... Some just take up the robes as a sort of job... Some become monks because they get divorced, or suffer some calamity etc etc. Very few actually take up robes with the aim of dedicating their life to becoming enlightened. When I say ‘serious traditions’ that’s what I mean.

I'm gonna waffle on - and you'll have to tell me if I manage to answer your question or not There are several layers to this question (if I understand it correctly)... One aspect is on the loftier side... And that's to do with what growth or development is for you as your primordial spirit. As far as I understand there's a major aspect of development that's not possible for a spirit (even a Deity) in the heavenly realms. It's only possible to work on your ming and karmic ties on the earthly realm. So in that sense incarnating into physical form is an absolute necessity for spiritual development (from the vantage point of your primordial self) This is why you can essentially become an exalted being like a living deity - ascend to the heavenly realms but then still have to return to physicality (however many thousands of years later) to work out any remaining karma. Hopefully that paints a picture why (at least from the Daoist perspective) working with Ming and the body is absolutely crucial. ---- On a more mundane level - in reality the hardcore 'body gong' is actually a very small portion of the path... It takes maybe 3 to 10 years of working directly with the body - which might seem long - but in the context of a lifetime's practice - it's just a blip. In fact traditionally it took much less time - partly because people were physically more robust in the past - and partly because they were put through arduous full time daily training - not sparing the student's sense of comfort or tolerance for 'growing pains'... (I give the example of one of the Yang family guys attempting to run away from home several times - even attempting suicide because the training was so grueling) But these days - if you still have a 'normal life' and train hard, but part time - it'll take about 3 years to prepare the physical foundation. From then on you're mostly working on the level of Qi. All the physical transformations (such as a the 'cinnebar field as firm as a stone') is the result of working with Qi and Jing - not really with the body. Similarly many of the physical changes later down the line (for instance changes in head shape, the amrita, and other weird and wonderful stuff) happens as a byproduct of working on the consciousness level primarily (though Qi is always involved - from beginning to the 'end') ---- Regarding attaining the various bodies, as per @Bindi's quote. The way Jhannic methods work and the way Tantric (Daoist) methods work actually achieve the same thing but come at it from two distinct directions. The main principle of the spiritual path, in essence, is the absorption of one's consciousness into the next, 'higher body'. The jhannic systems develop concentration to a very high level... It's like developing your level of focus to such a high degree that you're able to zero in on and then absorb fully into your energy body... over time in that state of absorption, the higher body is built. In the alchemical Daoist systems you go a slightly different route - you generate such a dense, thick energy body, that your consciousness effortlessly gravitates to it and absorbs on its own - just like an apple gravitates to the ground. Different traditions work slightly differently - and certain Daoist lines will work from both directions at the same time - they'll develop both the concentration and the energy body (xing-ming) - this is generally the more northern alchemical traditions that make use of meditative practice heavily. In essence they create an energy body that is thick and dense enough for your meditative concentration to easily use it as its point of concentration. This is a methodology that's somewhat safer and more available to a 'householder'. The more Ming-dominant lines are very dangerous, and only available to the gifted few - and only when given the very secretive methods and overseen by a gifted teacher... Similarly the Jhannic Xing-dominant traditions are open to the very gifted who have both strong Qi and natural capability of deep absorption - and they also require complete isolation and full-time retreat (effectively for life). The ones who do well are generally already 'stream enterers' from past lives. Even in the xing-ming traditions, the amount of Qi one has to develop is extraordinary... most people have subtly sensed Qi to some extent - well they have to generate their Qi body to such a density that it feels as real as your physical body... so that you can focus on the light of your Qi body to the same extent as your physical hand for instance. Once you've generated your Qi body... you use that body to generate even more Qi that is more refined - and that helps to create the next body that we then absorb into and develop... and in this way we leapfrog from one body to another. There are 7 such bodies in my tradition. So in essence - we always work on the body that our consciousness resides in... Now I explained this in simple terms... But of course each stage requires a whole lot of work - and it's a very difficult endeavour. Even though I've spent long periods of full time practice on this, have the right methods, guided by amazing teachers, dedicated all I can to it, I've only just managed to glimpse absorption into the first energy body a few times (on retreat, with lots of assistance). ---- All the siddhi effectively come as a byproduct of inhabiting these bodies progressively... I've seen a Yogi who managed to develop the skill of being able to suck in liquids through his penis... He'd perform this to spectators... the big crowd-pleaser was when he'd suck in kerosene, then squeeze it out and set it alight. Now that was a sight to behold That's not the kind of Siddhi I'm talking about It's kind of like we all have the 'siddhi' of being able to instantly communicate to pretty much anyone on earth - simply as a byproduct of having a phone. Meaning these aren't 'superpowers' - they're simply the result of having a different 'body'... just as an incredible sense of smell is not a superpower for a dog - because that's just what their nose is capable of. Testing for these siddhi is one way to confirm your progress. (phew! managed to loop my waffling back to discernment somehow! ) But discernment is tricky... because when I started this path, I was very scientifically minded - if someone told me 'I saw this teacher dematerialise in front of me' - I would've thought 'you poor fool' - and would certainly have avoided anything to do with that sort of school.

Thats athletics covered for those three Though obviously lacking for the minister

What is described in your quote is essentially the full spiritual path for both Daoist alchemy and the Jhanna practices were explained to me in Myanmar. (though obviously missing the large collection of methodologies and mechanics that are required to achieve it)

Welcome

Thank you - I didn’t know there were such descriptions in the sutras. But yes - this is exactly the sort of stuff Zhenren are known for too.

I don't know them all. There are many for each part of each stage... Each of the De (the virtues) for instance have a corresponding physiological sign - but there are also qualities that are attained bit by bit as you move towards transforming your De... This information is generally reserved for teachers only.

Full omniscience is one.

Yeah - that's true... though it's quite possible to push inquiry to support anything you want... Those composers who found the music written by an AI exceptionally moving would come up with all sorts of justifications why the composer of this piece was a musical genuis. The reality is that we have to take people's word on all manner of things. I like the Daoist practicality that posits these things as experiments... develop your dantien using this method and it will become a solid sphere... open this channel fully and you will no longer sweat or shiver... These things all have reasonably objective evidence.

No - a sage is a Shengren - what's considered as a 'lower' attainment - it's akin to something like 'fully awakened to their true nature'... They've permanently realised their true nature - but it remains 'unactualised' - meaning they're not fully transformed. I'm not that clear on Buddhist terminology - (so this might be wrong) - but you could say that a Shengren is a stream enterer... a Zhenren is a deity or a buddha (though a deity that must return to physicality within 30 thousand years or something)... a Xian (or immortal) would never need to return. [edit] I'm not one of those that believes "it's all the same in the end" by the way... that doesn't seem to be the case to me. It appears that the 'tantric' spiritual systems have a slightly different attainment than do others... I'm informed that this stuff doesn't stop either - even after immortality there's a path...

Body temperature is controlled by other means - so no, no sweating even when exercising. edit - there can still be some sweating created by inner heat - usually not with physical exercise, unless ‘inner heat’ is generated.

There's no word for 'enlightenment' in Daoism - there's just a word for 'one who has attained' a state that parallels enlightenment... which is Zhenren... which means something along the lines of 'True Person'... 'True' because they've completely transformed the 'false self' and fully actualised Yuan Shen (original spirit) in all aspects and on all levels of who they are.

I disagree. Though it's true that once someone is at a high level it can be difficult to discern

Yeah - I completely agree. I just wanted to point out that it's not a point of discernment - because many smart ones (whether just deluded or purposely charlatans) will use very sophisticated ways to convey their level of attainment. In the Daoist world, many teachers you can literally ask directly - and they'll tell you in no uncertain terms exactly where they are and what they're working on and what's beyond them. Daoists tend to be very practical and direct like this - especially with trusted individuals.

Oh I've seen weird dynamics with this... Even the biggest charlatans will know not to call themselves enlightened... they'll just subtly cultivate this view in their students... They'll for instance give more attention to the people who expound on the teacher's enlightenment while still denying anything of the sort... It's a double whammy of 'not only he's enlightened but he's so humble too'...

Regarding discernment... maybe of something a little less lofty than enlightenment - but just a clear marker along the path... Each stage of inner transformation always has specific signs that are quite plain and obvious... As a minor example - once one of the 8 extraordinary channels are fully opened, the practitioner is no longer affected by ambient temperature - meaning their body is comfortable at all times - and it completely stops responding by shivering, or sweating or standing one's hair on end. One of my Daoist teachers explained this fact directly... suddenly it made sense to me why a teacher in a completely different tradition would have me doing seated practice in a ruined stone building that's been baking in the tropical sun all day (I failed miserably and was drenched in sweat every time, mind you ). My Daoist teacher laughed and said he does a similar test - by having students train in a little aluminium hut painted black. There are some weird ones... for instance I've seen one of the senior monks come up to one of the long-term lay students while they're meditating, stick his little finger up his nose - then pull it out and put it in his mouth and walk away I was newish at the time and was like WTF did I just see - is this some sort of weird reverse 'wet willy' joke or something? The monks do have a weird sense of humour in Myanmar... I asked the guy later - no he's just testing to see if the amrita is flowing yet... These things are quite openly discussed in many classical texts... it's just we tend to think of them as metaphorical because they beggar belief. Here's an example taken from Pedragio's book with various translations (called Foundations of Internal Alchemy): "It is said, moreover, that when the Cinnabar Field is as firm as a stone; when one’s pace is as light as flying; and when, each time one begins to practice, the “source of the Medicine” is lively and brisk, the “celestial mechanism” is unobstructed and flourishing, and the “substance of Water” is clear and true" This is literal. Anyone I've met who's advanced in alchemical training has a firm dantien in the belly... I'm certainly not advanced but even I have a firmish golf ball sized sphere. There is also a lot of testing through siddhis (very controversial - but is simply the case from what I've seen) I've posted a video by Nathan Brine talking about a test that a certain (unmentionable) master used to use. Here's the link: https://youtu.be/snXtbm1VJE0 This is common in traditional schools. Internal experience is not trusted - 'I feel as though I have a dantien' is not good enough... And thank god that's the case! It is so so easy to fool oneself! We're full of biases that aim to confirm our convictions - but if true progress is indeed your aim in life isn't it better to know something for a fact than leave it up to your own faulty assessment?! I read recently how an AI passed a sort of 'musical Turing test'... various composers, musicians and aficionados were given a number of compositions to listen to and describe how they felt. They were all moved... some of them thought it was some of the best new compositions they've heard. Another matched group were told that the composition was done by an AI - they thought it was soulless, were completely unmoved by it - it all just seemed robotic and boring to them. These are people who've spent a lifetime studying, playing and listening to music - yet they're still fooled by their own biases. This 'objective evidence' stuff is absolutely hated by many modern gurus... they'll use all kinds of mental and philosophical justifications to discount this stuff - simply because they don't have any of these signs! So they lower the bar of attainment to match their level of development. I remember asking Michael Winn about qi emission - this is a teacher that teaches people to become immortal... yet when asked about something as simple as tangible qi emission, he - like a cat who doesn't want to be petted, squirmed and wriggled out of giving a direct answer. I know it can be disappointing and disheartening - because you've had all these amazing spiritual experiences and how could this profound state be discounted by these body obsessed charlatans... But of course your internal experiences aren't necessarily faulty or not real... they just haven't fully developed yet - there's more... For some people seeing that 'there's more' is an amazing discovery and opportunity - even if it's a little humbling and disheartening... For others it's the worst thing ever - it shatters the grand self image they've cultivated - so they'll use every mental trick in the book to somehow discount its significance. For others still, they're so entrenched that it doesn't even register on their radar... They unconsciously use their ignorance as a protective mechanism and obfuscate this stuff... it's like their mind wraps an ignorance shield around the whole thing to protect themselves. [edit] - I covered aversion, ignorance but I missed craving out! We all know them... these are the ones chasing abilities attaching all sorts of hopes and dreams to them - craving them - trying to find any way possible to develop them (some even resort to magic tricks and computer graphics to simulate them ) This of course also completely misses the point entirely - but hopefully this one is a bit more clear, coz we've seen it so much on this forum...

Yeah - the issue for me is that I'd like to pass on just how shockingly different someone who's truly enlightened is to a normal or even an awakened person... and that's difficult without a personal story - because it just sounds ridiculous and nebulous... Like I've said before - an enlightened being (hard to call them a 'person' at that stage) is effectively omniscient and omnipotent... what the hell does that even mean? How could you know that? But then this is a public forum - and just as you wouldn't want to pass around a priceless manuscript to everyone at the bar to have a leaf through... it's probably not something to share online.

I've had a few 'awakening' experiences in my life... one was as a child after a car plowed into me and my friend... but another (more interesting) time was with a teacher who I considered enlightened. What happened with the teacher was subtle and profound... He's one of these non-dual type teachers that talks and 'points' at various aspects of what's in the way of 'enlightenment' - in an effort to help you notice, then drop these things to reveal what lies beneath. The moment it happened was quite ordinary - we were sitting in a small group and our teacher was talking, as he does - but suddenly without any context, he paused in the middle of a sentence. I hadn't been listening because at the time, inside of me all I could do was struggle with a wave of radiating heat and a kind of strong (very unpleasant) self-consciousness - like everyone just caught me with my pants down. But the teacher paused - and he looked at his senior student (as whatever was going on in me was reaching a crescendo.) "Did you notice?" - the senior nodded... "Who is it?" - the senior points at me. Except at that moment what 'me' meant became completely abstract. Everyone just sat in silence for a good 10 minutes. It felt like coming home... like all the stuff and identification and separation that I was busily maintaining throughout my life simply fell away - and what was left wasn't some dark abyss but just a simple presence... no inner dialogue, no habitual identification - my awareness was equally within and without and there was no separation between me and the leaf fluttering in the wind outside - or even the space between us. I could feel this gentle peace - like this huge burden had been lifted. Over the next hour or so I tuned into this sense of Love - but not love with a direction (like "I" love -> "you") - but more like a kind of vibration pervading everything. Actually many of the participants that day experienced the same thing. It felt funny because all that happened was that we simply stopped this massively energy-intensive juggling act that we thought was our self... but as soon as all the balls were allowed to drop to the floor and our concern for keeping them up and moving was let go of, this much less 'personal' Self emerged... and it was hilarious. All we had to do was stop - so silly. Our teacher apparently lived in this state constantly... no inner dialogue at all... no real subject-object separation... the way he talked was exactly as Dwai states above - you could tell every word was 'fresh' and spontaneous - not coming from the personality - but from somewhere else. I was convinced he's enlightened. But... turns out he's not. Not even close. (though closer than most!) And it took years to find that out. Although I'd left that group for practical reasons, I stayed in touch with a couple of the other students. In time, it came to light that our teacher was deeply depressed. In fact he secretly attempted suicide several times. He'd get addicted to random stuff like sugar or sex or even gadgets (even though he owned barely anything) and even drugs. He'd attempt all kinds of other practices from qigong to kundalini stuff - it seemed out of desperation. Several of the students went a similar way. Turns out the juggling balls we dropped were still there... and in fact they began to putrefy and infect us from the ground up. I'm still hugely fond of that teacher - he's an incredible person and I miss being in his presence... listening to him talk was like hearing a talented jazz ensemble spontaneously create the most incredible music that touches you to the core... In fact he was the first person to assuage my skepticism - that there really is something to all this spiritual stuff - and in many ways he set me on my path to sell everything I have and travel the world in search of spiritual teachings... I went from a materially successful person to being basically homeless - which at the time was a pretty stark change. I eventually found what I was looking for - in traditional schools a lot less 'exciting' - but turns out they've been doing this stuff and perfecting it over hundreds of generations. And as I trained, the context of all my prior spiritual experiences became apparent. I did eventually meet someone fully enlightened (and it's way beyond what I'd assumed physically or even conceptually possible) - but that's another story - don't want to bore everyone with a 'wall of text' post.... (and I really need to consider what I can share so openly). (I also need to actually answer the question of discernment!!)

One of the better barometers for this sort of stuff!

Really important topic! Look forward to seeing people’s perspectives. I’ll add my own eventually.

No - I got what you’re saying - I’m just saying you’re wrong. If you’re averse to the cold, you don’t jump into an ice bath to avoid a cool breeze in the air. PS. I have no interest in flogging this dead horse any further 😬