freeform

Indeed... in fact with absolutely anything - look deeply and patiently enough and a whole exquisite complexity arises. To me it's not the other way round... Simple view of a cell: A more accurate (and a bit more complex) look at a small part of a cell: --- I'd be keen to understand why we have such polar opposite views on this (seemingly obvious and apparent) matter @dwai

I find it strange that you have these views on complexity. I have the polar opposite view - which suggests there’s something else going on. Maybe your personal definition of complexity is different from the norm? Anywhere you put your awareness for a long enough time reveals an exquisite, unfathomable complexity... every expert in any human endeavour has vastly more nuances and distinctions than people looking at it from a distance. I see golf as men hitting balls with sticks (simple)... but to a professional golfer there’s a lifetime of nuanced understanding - everything from the equipment to understanding all the hundreds of subtle distinction in weather, humidity, air pressure etc - all of which affects their performance... and that’s before even getting into anatomy, movement, tactics, mental focus etc etc etc. Anyone with a simple understanding of golf who goes up against someone with a deeply nuanced understanding of golf is bound to lose immediately. Anyone who has a simple understanding of software engineering (“it’s just typing instructions in a special language”) will not able to ship a product... This seems so obvious to me - that I imagine you’ve got some unconventional understanding of what complexity and simplicity mean.

I can only talk from my experience - which includes many years of doing this stuff full time with very experienced teachers around the world. Including training (and results) from the GF line of internal practice. This stuff isn’t that intuitive (in many ways it’s counter-intuitive) - it’s not possible to ‘reverse engineer’ accurate understanding of this particular process. I can tell you that each and every concept is unambiguous and specific - with not much wiggle room for personal interpretation. But I’m not trying to dissuade you getting into this stuff - very much the opposite... with the caveat being that it’s probably not what you think - meaning you must find people with genuine understanding and results from this sort of training Nothing unfortunate about it I think you have a very healthy perspective. There is a lot of delusion in these arts. It’s hard to gain access to genuine methods... Blind belief and lack of discernment is a guarantee of getting stuck in a pitfall...

Depends on the teacher Many teachers are very secretive. Many teachers purposely give incorrect info just to have an upper hand. These things are common in Asia - these people are generally best to steer clear of... Precisely. Seeing these arts as just a means to beat people up is a seriously misunderstood point of view. If you take the logic of wanting to win fights a step further you could just get yourself a spear (or a gun for the american bums) and the overcomplicated 'BS' of MMA will be solved immediately. I completely disagree with that in general. I'm glad a surgeon sees complexity when he looks at me - and not just a dude with two arms and two legs... (just to be the devils advocate - how would you know if you got the full scoop?) What happens is people look outside of the instructions to 'boost', 'accelerate' 'improve upon' whatever they've been taught. This in my opinion isn't a tendency of looking for complexity - it's more just a case of a scattered mind and trying to find a shortcut (which in essence is a case of looking for simplicity)... The reality is that the methods and techniques are that way because they're the most efficient way to develop the skill required. What's needed is continued, dedicated effort put in. Not 20 minutes twice a week - and then 3 months later 'this doesn't work'... For modern people it's easier and far more fun to 'shop' for improvements and upgrades instead of to put in the effort and delve into a simple instruction and find the nuance, depth and complexity within it and effectiveness within it.

My response is biased because it's the path I'm on... But meditation on its own often leads to this state you're describing. It's a common occurrence. From my perspective what's 'missing' is Qi. The Daoist approach focuses on finding the form within the formless (and the formless within the form). From that perspective, you're simply stuck in the formless - a very 'yin' state - and you can't find the form... which is the yang spark (or light) of your original spirit. Qi is the catalyst between form and formless - it's the intermediary between your physical existence and your spirit. From my perspective - this is the missing ingredient for you. Daoist Qigong, Neigong and Neidan are the processes by which you generate Qi and use it to create transformation... leading to enlightenment and further...

Without meaning to sound harsh or critical (I'm aiming for 'helpful' instead ) Interpretations of classical methods won't get you far. There's a very unambiguous oral tradition that explains exactly how to achieve the milestones talked about. (Wang Liping teaches it - it's one of the core aspects of several Longmen Pai (and in fact Shangqing) traditions.) Despite how it appears - it's very unambiguous... For instance when the light appears - it's not in the least bit subtle or vague - it's a brilliant, almost painfully bright light. Although it's talked about vaguely in texts - which invites interpretation... these texts were designed as handbooks for students already going through the process with a teacher. If this is really fascinating for you (as it is for me!) - I would suggest trying to find a genuine teacher that can teach the method and theory... Wang Liping and his student Nathan Brine are a great start

In Chan Buddhist traditions (Zen's Chinese aunty) - many do talk about jing qi shen - because I guess there was more mixing between the different paths.

@anshino23 is quitre right about 'expedient means' You can’t give the whole truth in one go... Imagine walking into your first ever physics lesson and being told our most up to date understanding of the nature of reality - and jump right into Quantum Mechanics. Not revealing the whole truth is not necessarily deceptive. It's practical and pragmatic. Daoism is a path - not a theory. The nuances of understanding increase as you progress down the path. In many ways Daoism is as complex and nuanced as physics... you certainly won't get 'the whole truth' in a workshop... or even in 5 workshops per year. Think how long it takes to become a 'physicist'... For Daoism its a lifetime study and inner development. Of course I can't be sure how Peng developed his abilities - but I've met dozens of people that do exactly the same thing - and I know how they've done it - and it's not as simple as just MCO. And I can tell you that the MCO is not nearly as simple as Chunyi Lin presents it either... But think of these as your first ever physics lesson - it's presented simply for a reason.

Very well said yeah - exactly. Selflessness begets the highest form of merit... and in a way selflessness is its own reward (at least for a cultivator). The issue is that this is a really high bar! To be completely selflessly virtuous is close to impossible for the majority of us... So we start with something more simple - like just being kind without emotional involvement. This is also a skill and needs developing... Because most of us are only kind when our emotional strings are tugged on (as is obvious from all the charity marketing methods). If we can make non-emotionally driven kindness our default action, I believe it brings us closer to developing the deeper quality of selflessness. But that’s my own opinion. Its been explained to me that kind actions that benefit another being are always meritorious whatever your intentions were. But selfless actions are by far the most important ones for spiritual cultivation.

I train in a particular Longmen pai line of Daoist internal training. My practice spans Neigong, alchemy and meditation. To be honest, I’m not sure what attracts me to it any longer It’s just what I do now. Though I am grateful beyond words that these traditions exist. And even after hundreds of years, are still being kept alight despite the persistent forces of entropy that would see them come to an end. So there’s a sense of duty to do my best with this stuff and to help protect it for the future.

Oh no - that’s not what I meant. They came to see him because he’s well known. That’s about it Some would come for advice. Some would come as a sort of pilgrimage or to show respect. Some would come to see ‘if the stories are true’ (he would convince them they’re not!). Some would come to be able to say they met him. Many would come to be healed or assisted. Some came to get insight on their cultivation. After achieving whatever it takes to pop up in a master’s consciousness (one of the formless jhana) - they don’t need much testing or confirmation or assistance anymore

Quite a different approach to the 'one foot in - one foot out' approach of the Daoists. Which in essence means we treat worldly matters with humour, humility and indifference - but still participate. Of course you save that drowning puppy you see in the lake - because that's just what you do... but you forget all about it in 5 minutes... Not make 10 posts on social media and start campaigning to have the lake drained so that no more puppies will come to harm. Same with politics - you form a well considered opinion, cast your vote and that's it. You don't rejoice when Trump gets loses... you don't rub victory in your opposition's face... and you realise that it's just a funny game that us people still cling to - just as chimpanzee groups have done for thousands of years. And when you see this stuff play out as just an infinitesimally small fragment of an immense universe - then you've got that sweet combination of humour, humility and indifference.

This is key. It's not really about the 'amount' of jing... it's more about the quality of it... Is it all over the place (dispersed)? Is it fueling all sorts of innate desires (leaking)? Or is it calm, still, consolidated (rather than dispersed)?

Neither are correct I'm afraid Semen is not that important. Many 'masters' have confused semen for 'jing'. It's not the same thing. Yes they're connected - in the same way that jing is connected to various other fluids in your body including plasma, cerebro spinal fluid, various enzymes and endogenous hormones and so on. But more importantly the way one works with jing is not through physicality (we don't hoard sperm and cerebra-spinal fluid!) - The action of jing is controlled by our consciousness - particularly the part of our nature that creates various desires... You could have a bucket-full of sperm and endocrine secretions - yet your jing would still be scattered. To begin to consolidate the jing, the first step is moderation - moderation of sexual activity, moderation of hard labour, of food, of emotionality, of thinking, drinking, late nights, drugs, and various addictions (addiction to media, to social status, to chocolate etc) This begins to consolidate the jing and develops a very strong and healthy foundation. To further consolidate the jing - to begin working on spiritual practices, we must still the desires completely. What your desires are is a practice in introspection. Usually they're attached to worldly survival type stuff - sex, power (money), control, social standing, food, alcohol, sensual pleasure. Once this is complete, ejaculation no longer causes any issues (as long as you're reasonably moderate). But if your desires haven't been dealt with, simply hoarding your sperm will not only deplete your jing, but also begin to fan the flames of your desires - which sets up a negative spiral. A good indication of whether your jing is 'turbid' and scattered (the opposite of what we want) - is when you feel uncontrollably lusty and horny... or you want to control people, or be better than people or be drawn to addictive behaviours and habits... When your jing is below the 'normal' healthy level, it results in sudden hairloss, weak painful knees, ringing in the ears, cloudy mind, pain in the lower back etc.

Both 'the light' and the 'turning around of the light' are much more subtle than what's been mentioned above. There's a lot of confusion and misunderstanding of the GF method - largely because the classical texts describe certain manifestations and principles - but not the methodology. The methodology is only ever taught directly by a teacher to a disciple. Any methodology in books is largely guesswork. There are a lot of prerequisites before the GF method becomes possible. It's a pretty advanced practice... The light being talked about is the light of Shen Ming - it's the light of your original spirit - it appears only at certain levels of meditation. It becomes apparent at the Jhana level of inner absorption - so beyond the stillness of samadhi... So samadhi and jhana are a major prerequisite... without these, it's all just imagination. This is further confounded because what people think samadhi and jhana are is not right either... Often people confuse calmness and euphoria for these. The light isn't the after-image behind the eyelids The light isn't simply awareness. The turning around is a fundamental shift in how your primordial spirit manifests into the earthly realm (our physical world). It's possible to practice in an awareness-only approach, but this is only for the very gifted who naturally generate a huge amount of qi and have a natural ability to concentrate and absorb... One in a billion type of person. For the rest of us there's about a decade of preliminary work to be done before we get to GF

oh and I didn’t mean that in deprecating sort of way. I mean that his approach was very transmission based - and not so much direct theory.

Haha - no I didn’t - sounds fun I doubt you’re too old Sue. As long as you’re prepared to eat some bitter I’m sure you’d be fine I remember years ago one of Damo’s students was a lady in her 80’s standing for hours in Zhang Zhuang just like the others. I was very impressed!

When things become political, it tends to sweep you up into emotional reactivity and drama... and that leads one away from spirit. (And usually away from your initial political cause). That doesn’t mean you can’t do your bit for the environment! But if you find yourself slashing the tires of some geologist who discovered lithium ripe for mining in your town - then yes, you’re sleepwalking into an emotional melodrama. The dog in this scenario is one’s spirit - the confrontation is the melodrama - and the reason for the confrontation (whether legitimate or not) no longer matters...

I promised my teacher 100% privacy - so I have to be careful answering. Basically my teacher was very well known in certain cultivation circles in Asia. He’s very highly achieved in alchemy and was known for treating cultivation-related problems and illnesses - as well as other more esoteric stuff Now he’s retired from that phase of life and prefers complete obscurity so he can focus fully on his own practices. PS - there’s no ‘secret masters’ out there (well never say never)... Once someone gets beyond a specific stage, they’ll suddenly pop up in the consciousness of everyone else at that stage and beyond. Basically Star Wars type stuff That’s why the majority of true masters are known among their peer group - even if they’re in a cave somewhere. I personally believe this is how the practice of pilgrimage started... Someone that achieved some form of awakening would follow the direction of a light in their consciousness - which would lead them to a master or to a place of great power (often both). And when you meet teachers that say they’ve learned from some mysterious Daoist hermit with a cosmic name - usually it’s bullshit. They spin the tall tale because they’re not allowed to reveal the master’s name - either because they’ve had a falling out or the master hasn’t allowed them to teach. Masters who teach all have real names, have real backgrounds and reputations. Most of them live in society - or close. The ‘secret hermit master in the mountains’ that teaches people is a myth. The majority of internal arts teachers that made it to the west in the 70’s and 80’s were usually outcasts from decent schools. And because their reputation was no longer good enough to teach in Asia, they came to the west... And had to invent a mystical backstory.

To be honest - with a genuine teacher, it’s you who needs to be accepted - rarely the other way round.

A little discussion by Nathan Brine about some of this stuff All genuine systems have specific, verifiable ‘tests’ or ‘signs’ to see whether you’ve managed to achieve a necessary stage in the process or not. Not all schools externalise Qi in this way. But several of them do. Even the ones that focus on spiritual growth have very specific, objective evidence that can be verified. Many ‘spiritual’ people find this sort of thing kind of disconcerting. They’ll often make all kinds of mental somersaults to try and find a flaw in it. But I think that they dislike this fact because it puts their subjective sense of achievement under scrutiny. For me, realising that this is how Daoist traditions work was a pretty game-changing discovery for me. I’m very skeptical by nature. I question people’s assertions all the time. I question my own experiences all the time. Having gone through a few make-believe schools, it was clear to me how easily people slip into ‘magical thinking’ type biases when they get into spiritual stuff. And yes - it’s humbling to be told that you’re nowhere near where you thought you were. Or that mind blowing experience was just a temporary thing that didn’t really make a difference in your development. But for me, knowing that there’s no way to fool myself (let alone my teacher) is really exciting. True, accurate feedback. On something that at first seems so vague and subjective. If your aim is to actually achieve something then this is a really cool part of the path for you. Discovering this was probably the biggest reason I didn’t drop my training. Even though I was completely humbled by it at first. If your spiritual practice is in any way directed by some sort of vanity or self-importance - the drive to look good to others or to yourself... then an objective verification of your true development is terrifying. Certainly when I had my bubble burst it was quite painful... and then utterly hilarious... and then hugely motivating. Think you’re awakened? There’s a simple test for it. There’s a test for having had the experience (as long as it was recentish) - and there’s a test for how well the awakening has matured in you. I’ve seen a lot people come and get tested by my teacher. Many Buddhists, Daoists, even a congregation of fancily dressed and bejewelled Hindus from Bali... It was funny seeing my teacher trying to ‘save face’ with complements before gently bringing the vast majority of self-proclaimed cultivators down to earth. 80% of drivers think they’re better than average drivers... but that’s technically impossible. Things are a lot worse in spiritual circles.

The type of thing you see in evangelical churches where the ‘holy spirit’ makes people writhe around is a ‘genuine’ experience. It’s actually pretty much the same thing as ‘Zifa gong’ which is ‘spontaneous movement’ in qigong. However in the case of most churches they achieve this by overloading the system with emotion. Emotion gets the Qi to move into the nervous system and being in a place where this sort of thing is expected, people put their conscious mind to the side and allow their body to take control. The closest thing that most people have experienced that works on similar principles is an uncontrollable laughing fit The problem is that using emotion in this way is very depleting and actually leads the person away from stillness - and therefore away from any genuine spiritual growth. In the Daoist approach to Zifa gong, they use a different mechanism to start these spontaneous movements. Not the emotions. There’s also no confusion about what it is. As long as it’s a genuine tradition it’s made clear that when done right, zifa gong is just a process that clears out the outer layers of blockage - usually on the physical and emotional level. It’s not special, it’s not the Holy Spirit or angels or god. It’s closer to a sneeze in nature. Because of the nature of this state, it’s very easy to subvert it and use hypnotic type manipulation to control people and their minds. I’ve seen this done in many religious groups - not just Christian.

Luckily in Daoist systems there is a number of specific, objective physical and physiological changes that indicate whether you’ve transformed your acquired mind completely - or not. Guarding against self delusion is one of the major strengths of Daoist approaches to cultivation.

Yes exactly. The Daoist answer to this is... martial arts. This is exactly why martial arts is so emphasised by Daoists. It’s the Daoist approach to self-development. The idea is that through the martial arts you build confidence, get over your fears and develop a sense of humility and discipline. This process shows to teachers who is mature enough to go on to more transformative internal work.

Welcome Sue I met Zhixing many years ago. He certainly has an interesting way of teaching! So I’m not surprised you have questions unanswered. In terms of recommendations for how to get a handle on the mechanics of genuine qigong, you can’t go wrong with Damo Mitchell’s books - particularly his latest one (forget the exact name).